ISLAM AND INTELLECT: REPLY TO HAFEEZ123

Society Religion & Philosophy
101

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OldLahori: *
Khalifa:

Here is a simple book that gives arguments for a "timeless reality" of the universe. There are many theories out there that do not invoke a beginning or an end. A simple course in topology lets you know that the notion of a beginning and an end is only one of many many many other options that are possible. It really is a good book. I hope you check it out.
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see this is the area where YOU stop applying the intellect and start to apply theories that people have thought about. Theories are just ideas people have thougth of and are only true when thier reality is percieved.

As an example, you and I walk into a room and we see a pen on a desk, now you and I might carry a view which is different.

You might carry a theory about this pen that it has always been there and so on and so forth or that it was first plastic and over time it evolved into a pen etc...

NICE THEORY but no facts have been used to back up this theory and hence it remains a theory. So this view has no reality and cannot be considered to be a correct viewpoint as its basis is not trustworthy and it is indefinate.

Whereas I see this pen and come to the conclusion that there must have been someone who placed that pen on that desk and this view is based upon ration. HOW? Because i understood that for that pen to be there someone was needed to place it in that position and that the pen does not have the ability to create itself. My view is based upon the reality hence it is considered a fact whereas the view held by you may sound very nice but is a theory with no basis.

What do the guppies think?

102

I posted the below earlier and you ignored it especially the simple questions at the end of the post. Can you answer the simple question with a simple yes or no, or not?
As far as your above answer is concerned, if the 'thing' is as simple as a pen then I would agree with you, and it would be kind of an overkill to invoke anything more than a simple causality. However, when the 'thing' is as complicated and as big as a Universe then your analysis is way to simplistic and very very likely worng. Your analysis is not even correct for things very very small that get engulfed by quantal effects.

Khalifa:
In another thread you asked the same question and I tried giving you an answer. I will try again. As far as science is concerned, it considers the question ill-posed and not ready for an answer. "Where did the Universe come from?" In posing the question you invoke two basic concepts of space and time, which are not settled matters as far as science is concerned for either cosmological or quantal levels. A possible answer which seems likely to win out is that time and space does not apply to the "Universe" universally, and hence in human terms it is everywhere and has been around forever and will be around forever etc. Not satisfying but there it is.
Invoking religion to answer this question does neither science nor religion any service.
The need for certainty of knowing all the answers to all the questions indicates a need for some serious intellectual reorientation in many a circles these days. Let me pose a very very old question to you and see if you can atleast find an answer to it.

God Almighty is All powerful and All knowing. He is the creator of everything and everyone. Can He create a Universe that He cannot lift?
If He can then He cannot be all powerful since there is something he cannot lift, and if He cannot then He is not Almighty since then there is something He cannot create. So Which one is He not: Almighty or All powerful? There are many many questions like this one that people have asked for centuries. Now please don't disappear like you normally do, but do try to find the answer.
Since you talk of beginnings and ends, let me give you an even older questions that the ancient greeks posed: Where does a circle begin and where does it end? Is it possible that there are things that have no beginnings and no ends?

[Last edited by OldLahori on 08-21-2002 at 03:59 PM]

103

this reminds of carl sagan's quote

"a religen new or old, that stressed the magnificance of universe
as revealed by moderen science, might be able to draw forth
reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional
faiths. sooner or later, such a religen will merge"

104

Old Lahori

Here is a reply I wrote on a previous occasion, dealing with some Scientific issues amongst other things.

Please feel free to rebut the claim:

CREATION OF UNIVERSE

The Big Bang Theory is one of it's plausible interpretations.

We should keep in mind that the whole history of science has been the gradual realisation that events in the universe do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but they reflect a certain underlying order which is divinely created and inspired.

There may be a large number of models of the universe, explaining its beginning with different initial conditions( whether the FRIEDMAN MODEL, BIG BANG MODEL, EDWIN HUBBLES MODEL, PENZIAS AND WILSONS MODEL, NEW INFLATIONARY MODEL, CHAOTIC INFLATIONARY MODEL OR SINGULARITY THEOREMS MODEL proved by Roger Penrose and Stephen Hawking) but all of them lead to the initial state of infinite density and zero volume singularity.

You got the Primordial Fireball and it's immediate temp. after explosion etc with photons,electrons,and neutrinos and there antiparticles, together with some protons and neutrons.

I'll leave Einstein and Newton out for the moment, but the QUR'AAN WAS PERFECT IN IT'S QUOTE:

'Why don't the unbelievers realise that the heavens and the earth were fused into a SINGULARITY, then we parted them'. 21:30

CREATION OF LIFE

Modern Science completely endorses the concept of FOUR era of life after it's first appearance.

1 PROTEROZOIC ERA(PRECAMBRIAN PERIOD)
2 PALAEOZOIC ERA(ANCIENT LIFE PERIOD)
3 MESOZOIC ERA(MIDDLE LIFE PERIOD)
4 CAINOZOIC ERA(MODERN LIFE PERIOD)

The Qur'aan:

'And He fixed heavy mountains from the top( of earth) and He put blessings(source of sustenance, in earth) and He provided in it with proportions the sources of living in 4 periods'. 41:10

The Evolutionary Theory as Modern Science portrays is impossible.

Their can be no evolution in Physics. Heavier elements cannot be formed by Hydrogen, at least in peaceful terms. If you try to obtain Helium by combining 2 or 4 Hydrogen atoms, you obtain a thermonuclear bond, and the entire environment is vaporised in a mushroom cloud.

Mathematically, evolution is an impossibility. For a worm to be formed from an amoeba, 39 times 10 times 20 squared, alterations are needed in its genetic code, which would take 10 trillion years to produce at the rate of one change per second, or about 500 times the age of the observabel universe. For an ape, it would be 3 times 10 times 520 squared, changes, which is a number so inexpressibly large that even after taking the fourth power of the total number of particles in the universe, we still could not begin to approach it. For comparison, the total volume of the universe in terms of the diameter of an electron does not exceed10 times 124 squared!

Biologically, there can be no evolution as to this day, no one has been able to change even one cistron using scientific methods.

The Qur'aan states:

'And the animals on the earth and the two winged birds which fly in the sky, they are creations similar to you(O Mankind)'. 6:38

HOW THE UNIVERSE WILL END

If the universe contracts according to the laws of black hole physics, a new universe could emerge with a different geometry. The Big Crunch would turn into another Big Bang. The result would be an oscillating universe, an endless cycle of cosmic expansion and contraction. This is supported by the OSCILLATING UNIVERSE THEORY.

105

sholay there is no conflict between koran and science.. both serve different purpose one is material and the other spirtual social aspect
of humans. koran is not revealed to explain science, cure diseases
or solve modern problems that involve material thing.

106

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OldLahori: *
Khalifa:

Here is a simple book that gives arguments for a "timeless reality" of the universe. There are many theories out there that do not invoke a beginning or an end. A simple course in topology lets you know that the notion of a beginning and an end is only one of many many many other options that are possible. It really is a good book. I hope you check it out.

Timeless Reality : Symmetry, Simplicity, and Multiple Universes
by Victor J. Stenger

Editorial Reviews
From Book News, Inc.
If you complained to Stenger (physics and astronomy, U. of Hawaii) that you had no time, he would shrug and say nothing does. He explains to educated lay readers that time is reversible and that the underlying reality of all phenomenon may have no beginning and no end. He argues that based on established principles of simplicity and symmetry, at its deepest level reality is literally timeless, and that many universes may exist with different structures and laws from this one.Book News, Inc.®, Portland, OR

Choice, May 2001
"...wide-ranging, sophisticated...recommended..."

Book Description
In his exciting new book, physicist Victor J. Stenger shows how time symmetry at the quantum level makes it possible to draw a model of underlying reality that is simpler and more symmetric than the conventional view. This reality is timeless, with no beginning, no end, and no arrow of time. Time is indeed reversible. And in this "timeless reality," nothing rules out the existence of other universes besides our own; in fact, such a multiverse is strongly suggested by modern theories of cosmology. But whether or not reality has one universe or many, it had no beginning and was not created. It neither was nor will be. It just is.

From the Inside Flap
Quantum physics has many extraordinary implications. One of the most extraordinary is that events at the atomic and subatomic level seem to depend on the future as well as the past. Is time really reversible?

Physicist Victor J. Stenger says yes. Contrary to our most basic assumptions about the inevitable flow of time from past to future, the underlying reality of all phenomena may have no beginning and no end, and not be governed by an "arrow of time." Though aware of the possibility, physicists have generally been reluctant to accept the reversibility of time as reality because of the implied causal paradoxes: If time travel to the past were possible, then you could go back and kill your grandfather before he met your grandmother! However, Stenger shows that this paradox does not apply for quantum phenomena.

Many people believe that the laws of nature represent a deep, Platonic reality that goes beyond the material objects that are observed by eye and by advanced scientific instruments. Stenger maintains that reality may be simpler and less mysterious than most think. The quantum world only appears mysterious when forced to obey rules of everyday human experience. Stenger convincingly argues that, based on established principles of simplicity and symmetry, at its deepest level reality is literally timeless. Within this reality it is possible that many universes exist, each with structures and laws different from our own.

Using language that is easily understood by the nonspecialist, Stenger elucidates these complex subjects with astounding clarity. The many vivid illustrations also help make the book come alive in a manner that is more accessible to the educated lay reader.

About the Author
Victor J. Stenger, Ph.D., is emeritus professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Hawaii.
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PHew can u smell something?? maaan stinks
what is that?

107

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OldLahori: *

God Almighty is All powerful and All knowing. He is the creator of everything and everyone. Can He create a Universe that He cannot lift?
If He can then He cannot be all powerful since there is something he cannot lift, and if He cannot then He is not Almighty since then there is something He cannot create. So Which one is He not: Almighty or All powerful? There are many many questions like this one that people have asked for centuries. Now please don't disappear like you normally

[Last edited by OldLahori on 08-21-2002 at 03:59 PM]
[/QUOTE]

**I'll ask you to restrain yourself from using abusive langauge. If you cannot address other members in an orderly manner, learn to discipline yourself before you participate in discussion.

Sentinel.**

108

Sholay, which translation are you using? I am giving you the ones I acess. They are different. Haroon Yayha writes great books, and there is little doubt that believers will see scientific facts sprinkled across The Quran. However, there is equally little doubt that those who do not beleive will find those reference to be very vague and susceptible to multiple interpretations. The question that I am asked many a times by the unbelievers, and I hope you can help me answer, is which Scientific fact was discovered using the Quran. Not showing after somebody had discovered something but 'uncovering' something new that was not known to humans before. I have read Haroon Yayha and have never come across a fact that was discovered using the text of the quran. All the famous Muslim Scientists that I have investigated never claimed that they had found something because of a reference provided to them from the Quran. If you know of any, I will really appreciate your telling me.

As you can see from the translations below the Quran mentions that the heavens and the Earth were one, and because I believe I can see that could refer to the Unity of the Multiple Universes, where one of them is going through inflation, while another one is going through a Big Bang phase etc. However, you will hopefully agree that it is a little difficult to get all the details of the various Cosmological theories from the reference to a singularity.

021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

041.010
YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

109

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by al_nasar: *

Mann it realy stinks dont tell me ya all cant smell that i think am about to puke up.What is that smell???. smells a bit like.......hmmm i dont know i never really smellt dog from lahori sides so i dont know it could be!!!!!
Naa man it cayant be is it?
[/QUOTE]

I apologise if you are offended. I really did not mean to offend you or anybody. I am trying my best to be as straight forward as possible. Please tell me where I have made a mistake: is it wrong to ask these questions? I did not make them up. These were the kind of questions that were being asked back in the 12th century and being asked by Muslim scholars. If you read Imam Ghazali's history and why he came down hard upon philosphy you will find many many more. So again I apologise if your sensitivities were perturbed.

110

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by OldLahori: *
**I posted the below earlier and you ignored it especially the simple questions at the end of the post. Can you answer the simple question with a simple yes or no, or not?
As far as your above answer is concerned, if the 'thing' is as simple as a pen then I would agree with you, and it would be kind of an overkill to invoke anything more than a simple causality. However, when the 'thing' is as complicated and as big as a Universe then your analysis is way to simplistic and very very likely worng. Your analysis is not even correct for things very very small that get engulfed by quantal effects.*

MY STATEMENT: If something as simple as a pen had to be created then how can something complex and with all it's perfect functions ie the universe be not created?

In another thread you asked the same question and I tried giving you an answer. I will try again. As far as science is concerned, it considers the question ill-posed and not ready for an answer. "Where did the Universe come from?" In posing the question you invoke two basic concepts of space and time, which are not settled matters as far as science is concerned for either cosmological or quantal levels. A possible answer which seems likely to win out is that time and space does not apply to the "Universe" universally, and hence in human terms it is everywhere and has been around forever and will be around forever etc. Not satisfying but there it is.

MY STATEMENT: Things can only be measured when you have some sort of yardstick. Time is not eternal because it passes away and space is not eternal as the latest view of science is that the universe came from a big bang and it is said that the universe is expanding. For the universe to expand it must have defined boundaries other wise you would not be able to judge if it is expanding.

**The need for certainty of knowing all the answers to all the questions indicates a need for some serious intellectual reorientation in many a circles these days. Let me pose a very very old question to you and see if you can atleast find an answer to it.

God Almighty is All powerful and All knowing. He is the creator of everything and everyone. Can He create a Universe that He cannot lift?
If He can then He cannot be all powerful since there is something he cannot lift, and if He cannot then He is not Almighty since then there is something He cannot create. So Which one is He not: Almighty or All powerful? There are many many questions like this one that people have asked for centuries. Now please don't disappear like you normally do, but do try to find the answer.
Since you talk of beginnings and ends, let me give you an even older questions that the ancient greeks posed: Where does a circle begin and where does it end? Is it possible that there are things that have no beginnings and no ends?**

MY STATEMENT:The question you have asked is designed in such a way that saying yes or no would make God seem weak. In order to understand an entity or anything you must have comprehended it and have previous information on it. As an example, when you are at home and you hear a knock on your door, you know straight away that someone is on the other side of the door and thats a fact. It's a fact because you have proof and that proof being the knock. Now if i asked you to tell me who was behind that door (without opening the door) you do not have the ability to make this judgement simply because of the limitations in the mind ie the mind can not understand it. BUT, one thing is for sure is that you definately know that there is someone outside the door but you have notunderstood the person but you have the signs that he is there.

Draw this understanding to the universe. People can see that things exist and they understand that these things did not come about with out something to bring them into existence. So people would agree that there definately was a cause that brought the universe into existence.

So we can see the signs that an entity brought these things into existence but because our minds are limited and cannot comprehend somthing unlimited, we cannot see (or understand) the entity. But we know for a fact that there is definately something that exists (just like someone behind the door whom we cannot see but know that that they are there) because there are signs that point to his existence.

May Allah guide you to understand the truth.

Last edited by OldLahori on 08-21-2002 at 03:59 PM]
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111

Thank you for a clean answer. First of all let me say that you will not find much argument in me because I am not an atheist. However, I did want to point out that people in the past (for centuries) have been arguing that they can demonstrate 'intellectually' that God exists, and most people think that the arguments have not been conclusive. Now you say:
**
MY STATEMENT: Things can only be measured when you have some sort of yardstick. Time is not eternal because it passes away and space is not eternal as the latest view of science is that the universe came from a big bang and it is said that the universe is expanding. For the universe to expand it must have defined boundaries other wise you would not be able to judge if it is expanding.**

If the Universe has boundaries, then what is outside the Universe? Science says that such a question is meaningless. Science judges that the universe is expanding not by seeing its boundaries move, but by noticing the shift in wavelength of light and correlating it with the brightness of the star. The Universe appears to be expanding 'locally'. Humans can observe the "visible universe" which is considered to be smaller than the Universe. If Time is not eternal and as you say you need a yardstick to measure it, then please recognise that you can measure only its passage and there may be no beginning to it. There are many many books on the nature of Time and Space.

You say:
*MY STATEMENT:The question you have asked is designed in such a way that saying yes or no would make God seem weak. *
The question is why such many many questions can be posed. The answer to that is known and is part of the study of logic and mathematics. These paradoxical questions can always be posed and they cannot be answered logically. If you have never heard a knock before then it would be difficult to sustain the rest of the argument you make. That is the argument that Plato made a long long time ago. And as I have pointed out that the answer you give is something you already know.

Again let me say that Faith is far more expansive than intellect. With faith we can go where intellect cannot even dare. However, we use our intellect to keep checking that our faith is not leading us astray. That is the advantage of the moderate Path.

In peace and In Islam.

112

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OldLahori: *
you say:

If the Universe has boundaries, then what is outside the Universe? Science says that such a question is meaningless.

That is a question that i cannot answer as we would be asuming things. Never the less the universe is the sum of celestial bodies and each body is limited in size and shape and the sum of all limited things is still limited.hence the universe is limited!

Me not knowing what is beyond the boundaries of the universe does not disprove the existence of God as my judgement is based upon the reality that we can sense.

Again let me say that Faith is far more expansive than intellect. With faith we can go where intellect cannot even dare. However, we use our intellect to keep checking that our faith is not leading us astray. That is the advantage of the moderate Path.

Incorrect. The mind is used to understand that Allah exists although we can never unserstand the essence of Allah as he is unlimited and our limited and week minds cannot comprehend that. Just like when you hear a knock on the door. You know that someone is behind the door but you dont know who exactly and you cannot understand because the mind is limited (i.e. it cant comprehend what it has not sensed). In the same manner you and I will never understand the essence of Allah but we can be 100% sure that he exists.

So far your arguments have been weak.

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113

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilafah1422: *

That is a question that i cannot answer as we would be asuming things. Never the less the universe is the sum of celestial bodies and each body is limited in size and shape and the sum of all limited things is still limited.hence the universe is limited!

Me not knowing what is beyond the boundaries of the universe does not disprove the existence of God as my judgement is based upon the reality that we can sense.

[/QUOTE]

Khilafa1422: One of the standard ways of defining the concept of infinity is to start counting: 1,2,3,4,5,...... and now you say no matter how hight you count or think of infinity is beyond that. Notice each component is finite, and hence the conclusions that since each component is finite and hence any concept derived from it is finite is not correct. It is an assumption that the Universe is a finite sum. No one really and truly knows. That is statement based on faith.

As for the rest: Again if you have never heard a knock how would you know anything about it or its causes.

I am not trying to win any discussion. I have tried to present to you the best way that I know about the questions as I understand about the argument that people have used known as "Intelligent Design" proof of God. You find the arguments weak. Fair enough. I am sure that many don't. However, keep in mind that there are many many questions that would result in a paradox and you could not answer without placing a limit on the powers of God. And hence that by itself is sufficient proof of the intellectual limitations of defining the concept. I will rest my side here. However, if you want anymore information on this from my side please PM me and I will respond to the best of my abilities.