Islam and homosexuality...

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Iv got a thread in lifestyle about my lesbian Muslim friend…just want to be clear that iv got my Islamic understanding correct…

There is no such thing as a gay gene and what effects us is our circumstances and the society around us…sometimes we may devlop deviant feelings or fetishes say homosexuality or say something like pissing on your partner and then it is up to the individuals on how they deal with their fetish…

There is nothing Islamically wrong with having feelings of homosexuality because we are not accountable for our feelings…we are simply accountable for the actions we commit…

If this is correct what is the three day repentance thing in Islam…do you have three days to repent being homosexual on the inside or three days to repent being homosexual on the outside becuase if tis the former it makes no sense to me because like any feeling say it be hunger or love its not something you have control over…

Thanks…

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Re: Islam and homosexuality…

I’m not quite sure what you mean by the “three day repentance” but here is an answer to an question similar to yours.

Question:
There is much talk of homosexuality, and how much it is forbidden. I find this topic “almost” totaly solved. You say it is haram to be a homosexual. The are two main factors which come to mind. My question is, is the act of having homosexual relations haram, or the though of being homosexual/having homosexual thoughts? Is there a way to repent for those unfortunate?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

There is no doubt that homosexuality and lesbianism are forbidden, as mentioned in the question, and doing these actions is a major sin which deserves the wrath of the Lord and His painful punishment. The Lawgiver is wise and does not forbid anything to people unless it is harmful and damaging to them in this world and in the Hereafter. As far as merely thinking about such sins is concerned, a person will not be punished for that, so long as he does not do it or talk about it, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah will forgive my Ummah for whatever crosses their minds, so long as they do not act upon it or speak about it.

But thinking a lot about something could lead to a person doing it; at the very least it distracts a person from thinking about something useful that he could do. The scholars of Islam used to call for reform of one’s thinking and striving against bad thoughts, because they may gradually lead one to disastrous consequences. The “doctor of the hearts” Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Ward off passing thoughts, for if you do not, they will become ideas. Ward off ideas, for if you do not, they will become desires. Fight them, for if you do not, they will become resolve and determination, and if you do not ward them off, they will become actions. If you do not resist them with their opposite, they will become habits and it will be difficult for you to get rid of them.” (Al-Fawaa’id by Ibn al-Qayyim, p. 33).

** The way to repent is clear: give up the sin immediately; regret what has happened; resolve never to go back to it; do a lot of good deeds, for they wipe out bad deeds; keep away from the people with whom you used to commit this sin and shun them if they do not repent; keep away from bad company and everything that calls you to this sin. And Allaah will accept the repentance of those who repent to Him. **

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=7491&ln=eng&txt=homosexuality

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

Jazakillah pinks for the answer.

NBN, its good to see you again on GS.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...


As "complete" as many want the Quran to be, it only contains 77,000 words, and the complex study of human genetics is not included in those 600 or so pages. Studies have consistently found evidence of a genetic influence on sexual orientation.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

[/quote]

Any reference to back up your theory?

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

Semi, You have been on this forum for a long time but even when you get the answers you do not change your opinions. I'm sure you know that the Quran is not the world Alamanc and encyclopedia. So lets not make this controversial in the fairness of an academic discussion.

From an Islamic perspective, its quite simple, its forbidden. No ifs and buts. As given in the Quran the nation of Lut AS was destroyed for sodomy. So as a muslim we do not need to look for answers to whether it is forbidden or not. We know the answer.

Now as for scientific endeavours to relate homosexuality with genetics. Uptil now all studies have no conclusive evidence of genetic influence on sexuality. Most theories are based on statistical patterns. Even if it were discovered that there is a direct and fathomable connection, it will not change the Islamic laws on it.

If we were to accept living by our genetic dispositions then there is not much advantage in being a higher form of life, one with intelligence as compared to those forms of life with sub-human intelligence. I'm sure genetics influences how we feel about certain things or affects our biology but there is nothing that prevents us from altering it or controlling it. There are hereditary diseases, it does not prevent people from adopting a life style that helps them fight against the genetic disadvantage they are at.

Its a matter of choice even if it may be against ones genetic disposition.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...


Then let's not pretend that the Quran provides the answer to the genetic predispostion of sexual orientation.

[quote]
From an Islamic perspective, its quite simple, its forbidden. No ifs and buts. As given in the Quran the nation of Lut AS was destroyed for sodomy. So as a muslim we do not need to look for answers to whether it is forbidden or not. We know the answer.
[/quote]
The story about Lot demonstrated God's anger with the wicked city and its sinful inhabitants. Their sins included polytheism, public orgies, aggressiveness in their public places of assembly, blocking free passage of the roads, killing and robbing of travellers, and dishonesty in the market place. Traditional Islamic scholars are the ones who have* interpreted* the destruction of Lot to show God's abhorrence with homosexuality (as opposed to the correct interpretation - wickedness)

[quote]
Now as for scientific endeavours to relate homosexuality with genetics. Uptil now all studies have no conclusive evidence of genetic influence on sexuality. Most theories are based on statistical patterns. Even if it were discovered that there is a direct and fathomable connection, it will not change the Islamic laws on it.
[/quote]
Most studies show genetics, while not the sole determining factor, are a huge influence in sexual orientation. AS for the* interpretation* of Islamic Law - perhaps when Islam goes through its Reformation, all of these previously unchangeable laws will change to reflect the times.

[quote]
If we were to accept living by our genetic dispositions then there is not much advantage in being a higher form of life, one with intelligence as compared to those forms of life with sub-human intelligence. I'm sure genetics influences how we feel about certain things or affects our biology but there is nothing that prevents us from altering it or controlling it. There are hereditary diseases, it does not prevent people from adopting a life style that helps them fight against the genetic disadvantage they are at.
[/quote]
There is a difference to saying we can't do anything about it and that it exists.

[quote]
Its a matter of choice even if it may be against ones genetic disposition.

[/quote]
Accepting your religion as it was interpreted by others is also a choice. Combining man made words with God's words to determine your dogmatic practices is also a choice. Considering the destruction of Lot as God's punishment of homosexuality is also a choice. Not changing the way a religion has been interpreted for hundreds of years is also a choice - none of these choices have any overwhelming reasons to be the right choice (outside of culture, tradition and myopia).

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

Seminole.....Are you a gay(with no offence)?

Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?
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Re: Islam and homosexuality…

:rotfl: Never saw this one coming …

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Re: Islam and homosexuality…

**Verses From Qur’an: **
026.165-166 “Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!”
027.055 Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!
029.028-29 And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: “Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?” But his people gave no answer but this: they said: “Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth.”
**
Hadeeth (saying of prophet Muhammad) regarding homosexuality: **
Narrated AbuSa’id al-Khudri: The Prophet (saws) said: A man should not look at the private parts of another man, and a woman should not look at the private parts of another woman. A man should not lie with another man without wearing lower garment under one cover; and a woman should not be lie with another woman without wearing lower garment under one cover. (Abu Dawood)
Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (saws) said: A man should not lie with another man and a woman should not lie with another woman without covering their private parts except a child or a father. He also mentioned a third thing which I forgot. (Abu Dawood)
**
Discussion: **
Allah condemns homosexuality explicitly in the Qur’an: “Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives Allah has created for you? Nay, You are a people who transgress.” (26:165-166) It is the sin of the people of Lut and its Arabic word is lutiyya. Liwat is the word for sodomy, under which heading the topic of homosexuality is found in the books of fiqh.

And to Address NBN’s question directly:

Bro i’m not so sure about the 3-day repentance rule;however, what pinks has mentioned is precisely what i have found to be the solution as well and inshaAllah if your friend or whoever were to repent, seek forgiveness and intent never to do the wicked deed again, then Allah, the most forgiving, most merciful, will/may inshaAllah accept her/his repentance.

{Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.}(An-Nisaa’ 4:48)

{Say: O my servants! who have acted extravagantly against their own souls, do not despair of the mercy of Allah; surely Allah forgives the faults altogether; surely He is the Forgiving the Merciful.} (Az-Zumar 39:53)

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

I have friends, family and co-workers who are gay. I work and volunteer with AIDS/HIV patients and causes. So their plight is a very dear subject to me. I combat ignorance every day.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

Peace Seminole

You combat ignorance? Well in that case you will clarify that AIDS/HIV wildcard is not connected to being gay. According to the activists saying that AIDS is a disease related to being gay is a misnoma. But here you are giving us a red-herring about working with gay people and tying it in with people who are HIV +ve.

I have worked with gay people too, infact it was an environment that was dominated by fashion conscious women and gay men. I didn't discriminate or treat them badly in any way. They were in all respects human and I used to interact with their humanity. However, I have never agreed with their abominal actions ... sexual promiscuity or the likes. I never really used to bring the topic up.

I was never touched by a gay either, people who are homophobic think that gays are out to take every guy in the cupboard, but I can confirm this is not really true, but apparently amongst the gay people there are some who they call 'sluts'.

Now let's get off the 'plight' comfort zone and back to the topic ... Islam is mutually exclusive from the act of homosexual intercourse just as it is exclusive from sex before marriage and it is against animal sex and it is even against abominal acts with ones own wife ... so it has nothing to do with helping people or discriminating a certain people because we don't discriminate with them. As far as not mixing with them we are advised not to mix with sexually promiscuous and people with bad character either. The reason why this is, is because these types of people can pass on their habits to others when in their company.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...


Please limit your lectures to your myopic version of religion and spirituality. I have worked with HIV causes for years. When I started almost all cases were homosexual. Today, more of the newer infections are hetereosexual, but many of those still living are homosexual and the stigma and disease is still ignorantly attributed to homsexuality.

[quote]
I have worked with gay people too, infact it was an environment that was dominated by fashion conscious women and gay men. I didn't discriminate or treat them badly in any way. They were in all respects human and I used to interact with their humanity. However, I have never agreed with their abominal actions ... sexual promiscuity or the likes. I never really used to bring the topic up.
[/quote]
Good for you, it really has nothing to do with the interaction of humanity. Just as promiscuity doesn't have anything to do with homosexuality. Your fundamentalist views probably seemed a little less abhomonal to them with your display of tolerance.

[quote]
I was never touched by a gay either, people who are homophobic think that gays are out to take every guy in the cupboard, but I can confirm this is not really true, but apparently amongst the gay people there are some who they call 'sluts'.
[/quote]
Sluts come in all shapes, sizes and sexuality. But unfortunately with the social status of homosexuality, normal monogamous relationships are harder to achieve.

[quote]
Now let's get off the 'plight' comfort zone and back to the topic ... Islam is mutually exclusive from the act of homosexual intercourse just as it is exclusive from sex before marriage and it is against animal sex and it is even against abominal acts with ones own wife ... so it has nothing to do with helping people or discriminating a certain people because we don't discriminate with them. As far as not mixing with them we are advised not to mix with sexually promiscuous and people with bad character either. The reason why is because these types of people can pass on their habits to others when in their company.
[/quote]
Once again, outside of prevailing social factors, promiscuity is not synonymous with homosexuality. And bad character certainly isn't.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

Peace Seminole

Okay so you have a chance to vent off your say with regards to those other subtopics, but here is where I want to pick up the conversation. No one is saying that bad character, homosexuality or promiscuity are synonymous, but they share in that Islam prohibits all of them. For us the effects of being promiscuous in society is the same as having open homosexuality and by mixing with such people the things they find acceptable and preferable will begin to passed over.

In other words we believe that everyone has a tendency to be subjected to homosexual traits, promiscuous traits and bad behavior and these things become heightened in us when we accept and engage those activites in people who are already doing them.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

^ I get it. I already addressed those views in post #7.

One day, if man survives and Islam continues to exist, those views will change.

Timepass
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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

If you can prove that I was pretending as such then you have a point to make otherwise do not stamp me with other peoples assumptions or your own. You brought up the point and I countered it, so keep the blame where it belongs not on me.

Br. Teggy already provided the references before I could so its a moot point trying to argue that Quran does not prohibit it and that it was practiced by the people of Lut and that there is no condemnation of this act of theirs in the Quran. Its explicit in terms of Quranic prohibitions so it doesn't matter whether Luts people did it or someone else does it. In Islam is a sinful act. Period. Twisting and turning the argument will not help here by throwing in interpretations of traditionalist scholars or whatsoever. This is not about you agreeing to it but that its forbidden in Islam. Islam is not based on your opinions. And yes Quran abhors all the other things you mentioned.

There is no denying that genetics alone does define a mans functions or how a man behaves. Infact if anything upbringing and environment have the most influence over how people act or think. The interpretation of Islamic law has nothing to do with genetic studies. Reformation is not the basis for making the immoral a moral.

No where was it said that it doesn't exist and no where was it claimed that nothing could be done about it.

Islams choice is to condemn homosexuality, if one chooses to be a muslim better not make a choice to be homosexual then.

Semi, your post was really disappointing. It had no value add arguments, just tangential topics and you did not answer to anything that was said.

You have made no point regarding genetics and sexuality. What is it you want to achieve by proving that homosexuality and genetics are connected (which I think it more than probably true).

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

I believe the plight of AIDS/HIV patients would move anybody. And if we could find ways to save them it would be wonderful. However being gay is not connected vis a vis to HIV.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

I would like to know where this thread is going... let me ask behavioural questions rather than philosophical ones:

Semi: Please let me know what is it you would like muslims to do based on how you think being gay is treated in muslim circles. Let's forget about why no "gay" prophets are mentioned in the Quran.

Psyah/USR: Do you recognize the right to exist as a gay couple if they do not "advertise" their "gayness"? Please let me know if a gay couple keeps their "gayness" to themselves (i.e do not commit leudness and do not invite to leudness) how would you treat this couple in terms of day-to-day business and living. Following is the scenario:

  • The gay couple is your immediate neighbour
  • The gay couple or one of them is your client/boss/subordinate/contractor/suppliar
  • The gay couple or one of them is your immediate/close/distant relative

That above scenarios are not in the Wild-West but in an "islamic" state by your reckoning.

PS: People have gotten HIV and HCV through blood transfusion and by using drugs among other things so let's not blame these "SDTs" as being transmitted by being gay.

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...

I would give them their due rights as humans and muslims (this includes advice to abstain from this act). However I sense you want to know whether I would regard their act as a crime or not?

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Re: Islam and homosexuality...


You are the one who said
I'm sure you know that the Quran is not the world Alamanc and encyclopedia.

[quote]
Br. Teggy already provided the references before I could so its a moot point trying to argue that Quran does not prohibit it and that it was practiced by the people of Lut and that there is no condemnation of this act of theirs in the Quran. Its explicit in terms of Quranic prohibitions so it doesn't matter whether Luts people did it or someone else does it. In Islam is a sinful act. Period. Twisting and turning the argument will not help here by throwing in interpretations of traditionalist scholars or whatsoever. This is not about you agreeing to it but that its forbidden in Islam. Islam is not based on your opinions. And yes Quran abhors all the other things you mentioned.
[/quote]
Of course it's a matter of interpretation and scholars and culture. The Old Testament has more condemnation of homosexuality than the Quran does, yet there are Churches that accept homosexuals today and there are millions of gays that believe in God and consider themselves Christian.

[quote]
There is no denying that genetics alone does define a mans functions or how a man behaves. Infact if anything upbringing and environment have the most influence over how people act or think. The interpretation of Islamic law has nothing to do with genetic studies. Reformation is not the basis for making the immoral a moral.
[/quote]
One small example from Christianity (Leviticus) is that sexual relations with a woman during her monthly perioed was declared immoral. Modern interpretation has deemed that irrelevant. Morals change with time.

[quote]
Islams choice is to condemn homosexuality, if one chooses to be a muslim better not make a choice to be homosexual then.
[/quote]
Islam's choice or those who follow Islam's choice? (Islam, after all is made up of as many disparate and suspect components as Christianity is.) Again, see my comments about how the views on homosexaulity have changed in Christianity. Islam is 700 some years newer than Christianity, maybe that enlightenment won't take place until the 2700's. But it will.

[quote]
Semi, your post was really disappointing. It had no value add arguments, just tangential topics and you did not answer to anything that was said.

You have made no point regarding genetics and sexuality. What is it you want to achieve by proving that homosexuality and genetics are connected (which I think it more than probably true).
[/quote]
If God made man gay (as he does with other animals) and God doesn't make mistakes, why would he outlaw what he has made natural?

My post are not tangential, it all boils down to this one point - the same point that can be made in almost any thread in this forum - it's all about interpretation. And the majority of Muslims are going with the same interpretation they have for over a thousand years. It doesn't mean it's right.