Is this a sign?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *Do you not find that odd that if universla laws and knowledge, scientific and other was gonna come from god, no on echecked if it had already been established in various forms across the world? Lajawab's miracle is one simple example.
[/QUOTE]

You have to look at the context and then determine the intent of the verse, the intent might not be a “news flash”, it might be mentioning something that we already know to make some other point, we have to examine the verses in question one by one if we want to get at the bottom of this. I have to look at the “sign” mentioned by Lajawab to give you a better answer.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
I think it boils down to faith rather than terms like knowledge and science.. Quran is book in my opinion of a moral code and ethics from a particular time, as you said..for the jahilliya in arabia. I am not too sure about the book of signs but that is what makes quran great like the other scriptures, it gives people faith to do the impossible. IF tomorrow someone finds motivation or a clue int he Quran to cure aids, then humanity benefits. Whether it was a sign of god as per a muslim or just a parallel of human wisdom from which the cure sprung. Hallelujia!!!
[/QUOTE]

A book of faith without any real life relevance in my opinion is just a book and nothing more. A holy scripture has to withstand the test to of time and has to connect with all the humanity through things that matter to them like science, sociology etc. without any regard for time.

ChaChoo:

But Quran goes into much detail on these accounts. It talks about not only orbits but also the light of moon (borrowed light) , the big bang theory, nebula, the formation of stars via smoke (gases) etc. May be other nations before Quran was reviled knew a lot about astronomy but Quran never contradicted any of the valid discoveries made eons ago or recently. Signs mentioned in Quran compliments these findings and adds to them.

And this is my answer to your other point that I should give you reference of those tafaseer etc. which support ptolemic geocentric model.

Now first you should give me references of old tafaseer where these "new" concepts of big bang, nebeula etc. are described. The point is clear. Firstly western nations after careful researches etc. proposed the theories of big bang, nebeula etc. when these theories became popular, muslims then made taveels i.e. made suitable alterations in the meanings of some "similar" verses of their holy book and started saying that these concepts are already described in the holy book.

And so what if really some siientific facts are described in holy book..............??? The most that can be concluded is that the author of holy book (i.e. prophet muhammad) was an ordinary scientists.

And ordinary scientists who propose some extra ordinary such theories which are proved to be exactly true in later times.....Those ordinary scientists are then absolute and final prophets of the absolute devine, according to your own logic.

Re: Is this a sign?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
my mind was that the Holy Quran 1,500 years ago is talking about celestial movements...Remember, this was a time when the Earth was considered flat and no concept of orbits or floating heavenly bodies was envisioned...Is this a miracle of the Holy Quran?
[/QUOTE]

This is off-topic.

I have all ways been curious as to how people could believe the Earth was flat...??

I mean...

The surely could see the sun...circular, round.

The moon when full...circular, round.

Why wouldn't one wonder about celestial movements with the moon phases anyone can see? Location of the sun and moon during seasons...the moon in various locations during the night and by day even...

Haven't you ever gazed at the night sky and been astounded?

Of course its easy to say this in the 21st century...

but even as a child I had no question or argument over the earth being round or flat...Never even thought about it..just seemed natural ingrained knowledge that it was round.

Your response makes no sense to me. Would you care to explain it?

Unfortunately I am not an expert of Tafaseer and I have not read enough of them to give you an answer on this. So let’s assume that all old Tafaseer were wrong, let’s examine Quarnic verses based on what we know today as a “fact” by modern science. There is no dispute on the authenticity of the verses.

Fussilat:
41:11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: “Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “We do come (together), in willing obedience.”

Al-Anbiya (The Prophets)
21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Following link might be helpful:

http://www.beconvinced.com/science/QURANASTRONOMY.htm#FROM%20A%20GASEOUS%20MASS

Ordinary scientist? So you mean to say that 1400 years ago a person born in the age of Jahilliyah (Dark Ages) knew about astronomy, geology, hydrology, biology, embryology, and on top of that knew a bit about morality and religion. And despite all this he was an ordinary scientist. Also keep in mind that none of these “signs” in this holly book have been proven to be wrong so somehow this “ordinary scientist” managed to not only document the correct facts but he managed to leave out the fiction and wrong theories and facts from this book. You, seem to be pretty logical person, does this make any logical sense?

http://www.beconvinced.com/MIRACLEQU.htm

Re: Re: Is this a sign?

You make it sound like it such an absurd thing.. check this out:

:mudhosh:

Did you ever consider that you might not be a Purely Average Girl after all? :slight_smile:

Originally posted by Lajawab:
my mind was that the Holy Quran 1,500 years ago is talking about celestial movements...Remember, this was a time when the Earth was considered flat and no concept of orbits or floating heavenly bodies was envisioned...Is this a miracle of the Holy Quran?

You are infact lajawab Mr.Lajawab:

Earth was considered to be flat up till the time of Aristotle. It was Aristotle who, some 900 year before emergence of islam and quran, rightly concluded the earth was not flat but a large spherical object. This conclusion he had drawn on the basis of following three arguments;

That everything tend to fall downside appearing to be towards a common center.

That at the time of luner eclips, the earth throws a curve shaped shadow upon moon. This curve like shadow is visible from earth at the time of luner eclips.

and that when travelling from north to south in ocean, familiar constellations in sky disappear and new one become visible in sky.

So it was Aristotle who first concluded on the basis of above three arguments that earth is not a flat object but is a spherical object. And this he done some 900 years before the quran was written.

Later on, some 500 years after Arstotle and some 400 years before quran was written, Ptolemic (Known as Batleemoose in urdu and arabic) proposed his famous geocentric model according to which earth was considered to be spherical but static object and sun, moon and stars were considered to be orbiting around the earth.

This Ptolemic model was adopted by quran because it is mentioned in quran that Hazrat Ibraheem while talking to King, gave similar arguments that sun rises in east etc. (Means that earth is static and it is sun which rises in the east of earth)

This Ptolemic model was later on, some 900 years after quran, was rejected by Copernicus who finally proposed that earth is not static or it is not the center of universe but it is orbiting around the sun. In addition to arbiting around the sun, the earth is also spinning about its oun exis. This spin movement is from west to east and is completed in 24 hours. This fact give us an effect that sun rises in the east.

So you should stop wondering by now because it is not a miracle of your holy book. Our knowledge about the orbiting heavenly bodies is the evolutionery product of wisdoms of Aristotle, Ptolemic and Coppernicus etc.

[QUOTE]
Mr. Chachoo:

Unfortunately I am not an expert of Tafaseer and I have not read enough of them to give you an answer on this. So let’s assume that all old Tafaseer were wrong, let’s examine Quarnic verses based on what we know today as a “fact” by modern science. There is no dispute on the authenticity of the verses.

Fussilat:
41:11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

Al-Anbiya (The Prophets)
21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
[/QUOTE]

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together

What is this mentioned in this "authentic verse"...???

If really heavens and earth were joined together then how unbelievers can "see" that earth and heavens were joined....???

If this verse, according to your optimistic interpretation, is talking about big bang theory, then it means that this "big bang" theory was already in the knowledge of un-believers because unbelievers could "see" it at the time when quran was written.

So a thing which was already in the knowledge of un-believers, how can you claim that it was first told to the humanity by quran...???

And why you have no doubt in that this verse is actually talking about big bang theory...??? Big Bang theory is much different. There is no concept of heavens involved in big bang theory.

So you mean to say that 1400 years ago a person born in the age of Jahilliyah (Dark Ages) knew about astronomy, geology, hydrology, biology, embryology, and on top of that knew a bit about morality and religion. And despite all this he was an ordinary scientist. Also keep in mind that none of these “signs” in this holly book have been proven to be wrong so somehow this “ordinary scientist” managed to not only document the correct facts but he managed to leave out the fiction and wrong theories and facts from this book. You, seem to be pretty logical person, does this make any logical sense?

1400 years before, knowledge of astronomy, geology, hydrology, biology, embryology etc. already had been organized by the ancient civilizations of masopotemia, egypt ang greek. These fields of knowledge, however were not developed up to the present accepted levels. Quran also has adopted the portions of those "un-developed" theories in these fields of knowledge.

Embryology, for example has been much developed by now.

I give you an assignment to show me the answer to following ambryonic question from quran;

The question is: Why some children born as boys and why others born as girls....???

You are required to give answer to above question from quran. Give reference also. And that quranic answer must be exactly in accordence with currently established scientific answer.

Re: Re: Is this a sign?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PurelyAvgGirl: *

This is off-topic.

I have all ways been curious as to how people could believe the Earth was flat...??

I mean...

The surely could see the sun...circular, round.

The moon when full...circular, round.

Why wouldn't one wonder about celestial movements with the moon phases anyone can see? Location of the sun and moon during seasons...the moon in various locations during the night and by day even...

Haven't you ever gazed at the night sky and been astounded?

Of course its easy to say this in the 21st century...

but even as a child I had no question or argument over the earth being round or flat...Never even thought about it..just seemed natural ingrained knowledge that it was round.
[/QUOTE]

Miss, ppl in ancient times did thought that earth was flat. For example they interpreted rising of sun in east and then going to west in that they thought that everyday, a new sun comes from east and goes to west and this process repeats every day.

It was Aristotle, (non-religious person) who first concluded that earth is a spherical object on the basis of those arguments which I have described in my previous post.

If you would have cared to visit the link that was provided with the verses you would have gotten you answer for the questions that you have posed here.

I gave you references and citations it is your turn to give me the references to the claims that you are making. Give me some web link or name of a book or some research paper what ever some other reference besides your own writings. BTW I never claimed that this fact was told “first” by Quran although it might be true that it was first told by Quran but I never made that claim since I don’t have proof yet to back it up. But non-the-less it is a fact that cannot be denied by today’s scientific findings.

First I have enough assignments to juggle between my work, school, and home and last thing I need is an assignment from you who so far has not even given me a single reference to any of the claims that you have been making so far. But I will still respond to your query. First, once again, I have said this many times before, Quran contains “signs” it is NOT a science book, it does not specialize in embryology or hydrology or geology. It contains only “signs” from those fields and each one of these signs are correct and proven by modern science. We can have another discussion on why signs and not complete facts in Quran but that is a whole new topic. More over it does NOT contain all the scientific facts and discoveries known to human since that was not the intent of the book.

Now going back to your question. There might be a very detail account on what you are asking but again unfortunately I don’t have Quran memorized but here is something that you can ponder on:

Al-Qiyamah (The Resurrection)
75:37 Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
75:38 Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did ((Allah)) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
75:39 And of him He made two sexes, male and female

Now pay close attention, Quran is claiming that the sex of the child is decided by sperm by male not female. This is a scientific fact. Was that known 1400 years back?

Here is another link to read more on this subject:

http://www.beconvinced.com/science/QURANEMBROY.htm

Consider this:

79:30 And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

The word used to describe the shape is “dahaha”. The Arabic word dahaha has been translated by A. Yusuf Ali as “vast expanse”, which also is correct. The word dahaha also means an ostrich-egg.

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.

Just curious was this known before Quran was revealed?

Here is the source of the above:
http://www.emuslim.com/QuranandScience/Astronomy.asp

ChaChoo:

Website is very much optimistic. Original quranic meanings are badly destroyed to get the desired results. Actual big bang theory dose not talk of heavens in any way. The “authentic verse” quoted by you in your previous post only says that earth and heavens were joined (Like sandwich) and then they separated. If not childish, then it is not more than a mythological story.

Big bang theory talks of one single huge mass of immense matter without any description of heavens or earth.

If the fact was not first told by quran, then why r u giving references out of it…??? I can consider that quran might have made some contributions. Ok! it means writer of the holy book was a scientist like Aristotle. Most of the time I am not making the claims. I am assuming your claims to be right and then I am analyzing the claim to check its logical validity. In this way I am rejecting your claims because your claims are not valid. If I made any claim so far, I withdraw it. You are not required to give answers to my “claims” unless they are supported by references. But you have to account for those logical errors which are there in your claims.

(a) First “he” i.e. “human” was a drop of water i.e. “sperm” according to 75:37 quoted by you.

**Comments:

Sperm alone cannot be considered “human” it is the “fertilized egg” i.e. the combination of egg/sperm which can be considered (initial stage of) “human”. Holy book seems to be anaware about the existence of egg because normally it is not visible.**

(b) Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did ((Allah)) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. 75:38

**Comments:

So the sperm alone (i.e. not the fertilized egg) become a leech-like clot and then was fashioned in due proportion.**

(c) 75:39 And of him He made two sexes, male and female

**Comment:

When studying in sequence it means that after having fashioned it in due proportion, then it is made in any of two sexes i.e. male and female.

Sex is decided before it is fashioned in due proportions. Only one sperm has to join the egg. If sperm having y chromosome is joined with egg the sex of next human will be boy and this is decided at the time of “joining” the sperm with egg. And NOT after due proportions have been fashioned.**

Now pay close attention, Quran is claiming that the sex of the child is decided by sperm by male not female. This is a scientific fact. Was that known 1400 years back?

And now you pay close attention. quran is anaware about the existence of egg. So the “correct” result is a “by chance” result. Such “by chance correct” results always have great potentials to decieve simple people.

And what if really quran correctly describe it only 1400 back…??? Even other important facts of life were already discovered by still ancient ppl. I am ready to accept quran as a “contributor” to the evolution process of science. But I am not ready to accept that contributions made by quran shall remain valid for all times to come. Surely these have to be replaced by the new better theories.

So it has been a good contribution by quran in the theories of Aristotle and Ptolemic. The theory of quranic time (i.e. non-spinning earth; because sun had been “rising” in the east up till the time of quran), however was to be replced by Coppernicus theory of “spinning earth” some 900 years after the time of quran.

And I always wonder of you ppl’s such childish arguments like “Just curious was this known before Quran was revealed?”

Humans are always discovering new and new things which were previously un-known. If writer of quran has discovered some such things then what is special in it…??? And those “discoveries” of quran are within the scope of “discovering capabilities” of human beings. That is why you ppl always try to reconcile quranic “discoveries” with human discoveries.

Only those with weak faiths look for signs. Those that have full faith and belief do not even look for such things, they know Allah is always with them.

ChaChoo,

Impressive for certain. Especially the leech-like clot part. Not sure how one gains from quotes that sex is decided by male. I wonder if there are similar texts written circa 800 C.E. that agree?

What I mean is…are there non-qu’ranic texts that support the writtings of Mohammad?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Only those with weak faiths look for signs. Those that have full faith and belief do not even look for such things, they know Allah is always with them.
[/QUOTE]

And the holy book is provided with "sufficient" "signs". Perhaps this book is written for "only those with weak faith".

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PurelyAvgGirl: *

ChaChoo,

Impressive for certain. Especially the leech-like clot part. Not sure how one gains from quotes that sex is decided by male. I wonder if there are similar texts written circa 800 C.E. that agree?

What I mean is...are there non-qu'ranic texts that support the writtings of Mohammad?
[/QUOTE]

If you have a close look on the quoted verses, you will see that not only the "sex" but even the whole human being is the product of sperm only. The role of female's egg is completely ignored by these verses.

This (discarded) embryology, basically has been derived from Aristotelian embryology. According to Aristotelian embryology, male's semen play the role of "seed" and the role of female's womb is merely that of a "soil".

And remember that in other verses of holy book, womens (wifes) are also refered to as "khaity" (i.e. soil)

So the result of this type of ebmryology is that the advancement in human race is done only from the father's side. This result is also mentioned in other verses of quran which state that god drew all the future genereations of human kind from the back of Adam (only) and took a promise from them etc.

Surely this embryology has been discarded by now. It is evident now that advancement in human race is the joint effort of both male and female. And the male sperm is only a half portion of the seed. Other half portion of the seed is femal's egg.

Even the role of male's sperm can be eliminated using the modern cloning method.

Also note that the word "sperm" is not mentioned in actual quranic text. The word used is "semen". Semen is the drop of "water". Sperm, on the other hand, cannot be called as "drop of water".

Surely quran is also unaware about the existence of "sperm". All what it know is only a "drop of water" which is the semen.

Source

Ambiguity of Human Embryology:
Science in Quran # (1)
by Syed Kamran Mirza
Virginia, USA
[email protected]

Although, the world’s history tells us that no religion can boast/demand any credit for the advancement of modern science, at least one religion “Islam” very recently started futile/meaningless propaganda of the possession of scientific theories from the divine source. This unique and untrue claim has been carefully orchestrated and manipulated by some unscrupulous Muslims with the help of two western medical scientists mainly for three purposes: (a) to continue monopoly business of Saudi Kingdom’s revenue from Hajj pilgrimage; (b) to rejuvenate Islamic fundamentalism; and (c) to earn easy money by those two western scientists. Readers please read the NFB’s article, titled: Religion, Science and Bogus claims, dated Feb. 8, 2000, by Khurshed Chowdhury. Fact of the matter is, religion and Science are two completely opposite subjects having rivalry and contradictions from the dawn of the human civilization. Readers please also read a very well written NFB article, dated: 4/21/00, titled: “Religion and Science” by Mr. Nurul I. Mukul.

However, it is the intention of this essay to examine what exactly was known about the human origin at the time of 7th century period in order to see whether any of the theories expressed in the Qur’an were true or indeed well known before this time.

There are at least 60 verses which deal explicitly with human origin and developmental sequences inside the womb, but these are scattered throughout the Qur’an and many of the them are repeated over and over again, as is common to much of the book. An useful place to begin would be the material out of which we are created. Although, one would expect the Qur’an to be unambiguous about such an elementary matter, but the verses listed show just how much uncertainty there appears to be in our origins. Note that except where indicated the translation used is the translation of Yusuf Ali (Saudi Revised Edition).

Below are some Quranic Ayats regarding origin of man
Could it be from earth?

11:61 It is He Who hath produced you from the earth

Or dry clay (Arabic Salsaal)?

15:26,28,33 We created man from sounding clay
17:61 … Thou didst create from clay
32:7 He began the creation of man from clay

Did we come from mud?

23:12 We created man from a product of wet earth (loam) (Pickthall)
23:12 Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay)
38:71 I am about to create a mortal out of mire

** Could it be dust?**

3:59 He created (Jesus) out of dust
30:20 He created you from dust
35:11 Allah did create you from dust …

The metaphorical description of God making man out of the soil of the earth is ancient and predates the Qur’an by thousands of years; it is found in the Bible in Genesis 2:7. If this was literal it would be in direct scientific conflict with evolutionists who maintain that life was created out of the oceans,

Did we come from nothing?

19:67 We created him before out of nothing

No, we did not!

52:35 Were they created of nothing?

(Note the contradiction here).

**Or water? **

25:54 It is He Who has created man from water

   21:30  We made you from water 

   24:45  And God has created every animals from water 

Thew Arabic word Nutfah was translated as ‘water’ by present day apologetics, but in older translated Quran both in Bengali and English the word Nutfah was translated as ‘neglected water’ (Tuuchcha pani) meaning semen.

Perhaps we arose from the dead or from one person?

30:19 It is He who brings out the living from the dead
39:6 He created you from a single Person

     4:1    Your guardian lord, created you from a single person 

(continued)

The drop of fluid or semen

In a number of places we are informed that man is created from a drop of fluid (semen, seed ):

In the verses listed below ‘ nutfah’ is used when describing the fluid which gushes out during sexual intercourse and clearly this can only refer to semen.

16:4 He created man from a drop of fluid (Pickthall)
16:4 He has created man from a semen( sperm) -drop
32:8 He made his seed from a quintessence of despised fluid
35:11 ...then from a little fluid (Pickthall)

53:46 (he created) from a drop of seed when it is poured forth (Pickthall)
53:46 From a sperm-drop when lodged (in its place)
56:58 Have ye seen that which ye emit (Pickthall)
56:58 Do you then see? The (human Seed) that ye emit
75:37 Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth (Pickthall)
75:37 Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
76:2 We create man from a drop of thickened fluid (Pickthall)
76:2 We created Man from a drop of mingled semen (sperm)
80:19 From a semen-drop (sperm) He hath created him

Could any of this have been known to sixth-century Muslims at the time of Prophet Muhammed ? Surely that procreation involves the emission of a drop of fluid has been well known from the earliest days of civilization.

The verses which describe the origin of life as a drop of emitted fluid are therefore no more than a direct observation as to what is released during the act of sexual intercourse. We hardly need to rely upon divine inspiration to inform us of this fact. An illiterate man who never heard about Quran can tell about this ‘emitted fluid’ from male, or even a 12 year old boy can tell how and why child is created in the womb of a mother.

The Qur'an emphatically does not mention sperm or eggs; it simply says nutfah. This can reasonably be translated semen, or at best as germinal fluid - which was a term used as early as Hippocrates [1] who spoke of male and female reproductive fluids (but obviously could not have been aware of the cells contained in the fluids).

Prof. Moore by his wishful intention translated nutfah as germinal fluid, he inadvertently reinforces that the Qur'an is borrowing this term from the Greeks.

Borrowing erroneous Greek ideas

Sura- (86:6-7) "He is created from a drop emitted - proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs"

Sura- (7:172) "when thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants" or

Sura- (4:23) "prohibited to you (for marriage) are ... wives of your sons proceeding from your loins".

In the Quranic translation by Maulana Fazlur Rahman Munshi, the Ayat (86:6-7) were translated as: semen are produced from the back of a man and from the breasts (mammary glands) of an woman.

Sura 86:6-7 : is interesting since it claims that during the act of sexual intercourse before which a man is created, the "gushing fluid" or semen issues from between the loins and ribs. Semen is apparently coming out of the area around the kidneys and back, which is a real scientific mistake for we know that the testicles are the sites of sperm production (although the ancient Greeks were not so convinced. Aristotle for example amusingly believed that they functioned as weights to keep the seminal passages open during sexual intercourse [2]).

The Greek physician Hippocrates and his followers taught in the fifth century BC that semen comes from all the fluid in the body, diffusing from the brain into the spinal marrow, before passing through the kidneys and via the testicles into the penis [3]. Clearly according to this view sperm originates from the region of the kidneys, and although there is serious scientific error to this teaching today, it was well-known in the 7th century period, and shows how the Qur'an could contain such an erroneous statement. So this is an example of an incorrect ancient Greek idea re-emerging in the Qur'an.

Comments
To resolve the considerable guess works and ambiguity about what exactly we are made of , is like a Carpenter when he was asked about a wooden table how he made it, he (Carpenter) then answers: "This table was made out of wood, out of soil, out of water , out of air, out nitrogen and so on." Now, apologist can argue by saying that,, Tree grows in soil, needs water, nitrogen, air etc. so it is O.K. to answer all those (instead of saying I made it from wood). Or, insincere, blind-folded Mullahs can argue that, these were allegory, and not to be taken literally. Question is where is the key to decide those so called Allegories?

It is quite plausible to consider that, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) encountered (during the initial propagation of divine revelations) lots of questions (from sahabis), as to how, Allah created human beings, and those questions obviously made it necessary to bring those above mentioned Ayats regarding human origin. Now, question can be asked how an illiterate Prophet could gather such expert knowledge? In the future essays, I intend to postulate possible means through which Prophet could have received these knowledge.