what's the use of quoting scientific statements in the Qur'an and think of them as being only directed to us, the so-called muslim countries, as an act of devine inspiration on us. That's NOT the case. The qur'an is for everyone, every race, every culture.....so it's not right of us to think that because something is written in the Qur'an it makes the muslims superior to others. What is important is what we have done with this info.....and thusfar one can say with full conviction that the muslims of today have done zero comma zero with this beautiful information that has been presented to us in such an easy way. In this regard, it is a shame on us that we've not used such information to our benefit
Hi everyone:)
If the translations from the Quran in the original post are so scientific how come it does not explain lunar or solar eclipses? It says that the sun can not over take the moon. Not entirely true, seems our author never saw the 2 together at the same time, so assumed they could not appear in the same place at the same time.
This is highly unscientific, as his writing makes the earth the center of the universe. It suggests the sun floats in an orbit about the earth. More like the thinking of the Roman Catholic Church in the time of Galileo. It says that it is not permitted for the sun to overtake the moon. He obviously did not understand the universe. A large enough astroid hits the moon or earth and our orbit could be altered in such a way that sooner or later something would strike the sun.
from Earth Globe
"By then, many Greeks knew for sure the world was shaped like a globe. However, most of them didn’t have any idea how this globe fit into the rest of the universe. Aristarchus, who lived in the 200s BC, said the earth revolved around the sun, but not many people believed him. Instead, they believed Claudius Ptolemy, an astronomer who said in 150 BC that the earth was at the center of the universe. Ptolemy said the moon, the sun, the planets and stars revolved around the earth in a series of circles. For another 1,400 years, many people mistakenly believed that this was a true picture of the universe.
In 140 BC, a Greek known as Crates of Mallus built what may have been the first globe in history. It is hard to picture what was on that globe, since the Greeks only knew what a small part of the planet looked like. They had never traveled to China, Australia or the Americas, so none of those places could have been on the globe."
So it was known by greek scientists 830ish years before your prophet came along and said these things, catch being most of them believed the earth to be the center of the universe. After 830 years I highly doubt that it was anything much more than common knowledge, even at the rate of travel of knowledge in those days. And the history dates mentioned on the page above even suggests so.
Also explains the implied errors of the quran having the sun circling the earth.
Piece.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
In my humble opinion why we (Muslims) are in the state that we are in today.. is due to the simple fact... we are not following Quran and Hadith as it was being done in the days when we led the way... This can be a whole new discussion thread so I will stop right here...
The purpose of the thread was to establish if the mentioned "sign" is really a sign.... How can we determine that? Let's leave aside Achoot, Stoning, and German Cars.
Can anyone please provide references (books or sites) for the claims laid out by Matsui?
[/QUOTE]
It is only and only you people (Muslims) who are following quran and hadith even in this modern information age. And this is the reason of your backwardness.
basic_force,
Although I do not believe the smoke screen about Muhammad's teachings being "scientific". Your personal attacks aren't accomplishing anything. If you don't have anything to add other than personal hatred for the Muslim world it would probably be better not to say it at all. NO body was ever argued into the Kingdom of God, for either side. From what you post, I doubt you believe in God at all though. Am I right? If that is the case your not going to convince anyone by throwing insults.
Blessings
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
It is only and only you people (Muslims) who are following quran and hadith even in this modern information age. And this is the reason of your backwardness.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for pointing that out... actually the reason is completly the opposite... the reason we are in the state that we are in today is we are NOT following the Quran and Hadith as it was meant to be.
Peace to you too Lyrix…Thought we had lost you…
Lyrix, OK, so you take everything in the Holy books as literally…Since you like to discuss religion at length you should realize, that every Book that has ever arrived on earth from Allah :swt: is filled with parables…What are parables? They are signs and indications, so that when man achieves maturity in science or thinking, those parables can be contrasted and weighed in a person’s knowledge and he can form a conclusion thereof…
Do you know why the most literate (not educated) people in the world are drawn to Islam and revert? It’s because they see in that parable an answer to a lifelong question or a proof given to them by their own knowledge contrated against the Quran’s word…
The Holy Quran states:
**
So you think that by ‘overtake the moon’ means that the moon’s orbit brings it in line with the sun as a result an eclipse happens…Well, I think since it means that they can’t catch up to each other because the moon orbits the solar system in its own orbit and the sun orbits the Milky Way in its own, and none of them can take each other’s orbits…And the million or so stars that orbit in the Milky Way, another few million planets and moons orbiting and a few billion rotating, twisting, burning, exploding galaxies follow an order, an order from Allah (swt) as per His law…All of this didn;t come out of a big bang…
Lyrix, as I stated before, if Allah :swt: were to testify and form a Book which outlined in detail each and every scientific knowledge that man gains, the Quran would be a book no less than 17 stories high and covering an area of three square blocks…But man being man would surely find a way to deny it, because let’s face it, man is man…His greatest gift, which again was given by Allah :swt:, his brain by which he gains knowledge and is so proud of that, as soon as he starts to think independently, denies the existence of God…Man’s greatest gift, his mind, can either lead a person to Allah :swt: in full favour or throw him from His graces…It’s all how you believe…
Thousands and thousands of Scientific discoveries are made and theories presented and discarded…Faith remains ever unchanging, only to be proved by science later on…
1,500 years ago, the Quran talked about the creation of man in the womb and its seven stages of development and science proved it now, what then? Did the Holy Prophet (saw) have a laparascope to actually see the foetus develop or did he have an X-ray machine? Nothing…All he had was divine words of the Quran, in which some believed and some did not…BTW, many doctors and scientists have become Muslims after having read this amazing revelation alone…
all the world's best known scientists discover things with the help of Quran
while these scientists don't have any religion
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lyrixforu: *
basic_force,
Although I do not believe the smoke screen about Muhammad's teachings being "scientific". Your personal attacks aren't accomplishing anything. If you don't have anything to add other than personal hatred for the Muslim world it would probably be better not to say it at all. NO body was ever argued into the Kingdom of God, for either side. From what you post, I doubt you believe in God at all though. Am I right? If that is the case your not going to convince anyone by throwing insults.
Blessings
[/QUOTE]
You r not right. I reject the possibility of existence of any religious God. Your assumption is wrong that I believe in God, so your conclusion, (which is based on this assumption) that I am not going to convince anyone by throwing insults, is also wrong because it is based on a wrong assumption.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by honest_guy: *
all the world's best known scientists discover things with the help of Quran
while these scientists don't have any religion
[/QUOTE]
Be Honest.........Mr. Honest,
Scientists discover things using their mind, wisdom and rational on their observations. They do not use quran, bible, gita etc. for this purpose.
Mostly it is muslims who read quran, then why muslims are not discovering anything....???
Muslims are lagging behind in the feild of science due to this reason that they wrongly believe that all scientific facts can be derived from quran. This is a wrong approach. So they are wasting their energies in finding new scientific facts from 1.5 thousand years old religious (non-scientific) text.
I can accept that any particular statement of quran may seem to be scientific BY CHANCE but the same situation can happen with Hindu's vedas also as already has been mentioned by other member on this same thread.
Scientific discoveries happen as a result of scientific method and approach and not by interpreting religious verses.
Muslims are most religious persons in this world and so are one of the most un-scientific nation also.
I give you a scientific asignment and I require you to tell it to me from your secred book.
Assignment is that why some children happen to be born as boys and other happen to be born as girls....???You are required to give "scientific" explanation using quran only. Give reference also. And the explanation of quran must tally with the accepted scientific explanation of pure science.
P.S. My ancestors were Mongols not Hindus, JFYI<<<
Lajo yaar, teri Pan wali Urdu sounds nothing like Mongolian. Yaar, you are an Indian import, a b-class Mohajir into Pakistan, so learn to live with that. If you want to go back to Mongolia, be my guest.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
Thank you for pointing that out... actually the reason is completly the opposite... the reason we are in the state that we are in today is we are NOT following the Quran and Hadith as it was meant to be.
[/QUOTE]
If you are not "following" it then why are you "supporting" it....??? It means that your thoughts are inconsistent with your actions. So change your thoughts.
Mr. ChaChoo, it is only and only you (muslims) who are following quran and hadith. You cannot relate your failures in the fields of sciences with your "non-following"" of quran and hadith.
Try to find out realistic reasons for your backwardness.
Basic force..
I am with you on most of the assertions here as to how and when.. trying to find tangential evidence in scripture of rotational movements of planets etc.. but there is nothing wrong with if it is based on faith as opposed to absolutism. Proving such things is hard as it is..disproving quite easy.
So change your thoughts. <<
You are entitled to your view... I would rather change my actions to match up with my thoughts if my thoughts are following Hadith and Quran.
Mr. ChaChoo, it is only and only you (muslims) who are following quran and hadith. <<
Hence called Muslims... if everyone was following Quran and Hadith then we will all be Muslims and world will be a much better place to live in.
Try to find out realistic reasons for your backwardness. <<
Yes, that is my everyday strife. I will keep working on it but thank you for reminding me.
Hi Laj:)
I had to get some work done. So when the server went down I just didn't read for a while.
I'm not saying there aren't scienfic claims in the Quran. As a matter of fact the bodys in the sky is scientific fact. But as I mentioned earlier, this could have been commonly accepted by the time Muhammed wrote the Quran. Granting of course the stubborn few that refused to believe, like those that refuse to believe we have been to the moon. The Greeks knew this fact approximately 830 years before Muhammed wrote it and the Indians had written about it approximately 100 years before Muhammed. This of course is not proof but I think it is a reasonable explanation as to how the supposed facts got into the Quran and how they could be off.
The question I raise is the way it is stated "each" in it's orbit. That suggests to me a singular nucleus, earth, which both (sun and moon) orbit around. This is the implication I'm rejecting. It just does not make sense to me to intrepret this any other way.
In that light these "scientific" facts in the Quran appear to me to be nothing more than taking the knowledge of the time and applying it to the written book. I don't have time to look into the 7 stages of deveopment right now. But I won't take it as status quo with out looking it up.
You are right no religious/scientific book could contain all the scientific knowledge of the universe. And as mentioned earlier religious books are not meant for science, they are meant to teach us about God. But if they do have deviations from the scientific fact when the fact is learned, does that mean we should go on believing in our merry way? I think it begs further investigation into our beliefs to confirm truth.
Blessings
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
You r not right. I reject the possibility of existence of any religious God. Your assumption is wrong that I believe in God, so your conclusion, (which is based on this assumption) that I am not going to convince anyone by throwing insults, is also wrong because it is based on a wrong assumption.
[/QUOTE]
Basic,
Actually you just confirmed what I said above. Let me rephrase it, you don't believe in God.
Take care
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
So change your thoughts. <<
You are entitled to your view... I would rather change my actions to match up with my thoughts if my thoughts are following Hadith and Quran.
Mr. ChaChoo, it is only and only you (muslims) who are following quran and hadith. <<
Hence called Muslims... if everyone was following Quran and Hadith then we will all be Muslims and world will be a much better place to live in.
Try to find out realistic reasons for your backwardness. <<
Yes, that is my everyday strife. I will keep working on it but thank you for reminding me.
[/QUOTE]
Yaar ChaChoo, changing action is such a task which is just impossible to achieve. Ok try to change your action. When u feel that now your actions are in conformity to your thought, then come here. I think even then even I would be able to point out some still remaining contradictions and inconsistencies in your thought and action.
To change action upto a level where it is absolutely consistent with your religious teachings is impossible to achieve.
If it were possible then why up till now it has not been achieved in any time period in any part of the world.
In the initial times of islam, presence of "munafiqeen" is evident to you.
In later period your 2 or 3 Caliphs were murdered by the "muslims".
In still later period, your hazrat hussain was killed by muslims.
Colorful life styles of later khalifaas of baghdad is an historical fact.
In present times, you yourself say that "muslims are not following quran and hadith".
So do not go after impossible tasks.
I know your actions are very good. You never commit any major crime. You only do small mistakes which is a normal phenomeno. I know you (I mean avg. muslims) often miss your prayers. This is also a routine matter and nothing is serious wrong in it. Your actions are not much bad. These are infact very good because you do not commit any major crime. So you have all the good actions. So change your thought and bring it to the conformity level with your good actions. And this is simple task.
And again I would say that try to find the realist cause of your backwardness. Non-followance of quran-hadith is not the reason of your backwardness.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Basic force..
I am with you on most of the assertions here as to how and when.. trying to find tangential evidence in scripture of rotational movements of planets etc.. but there is nothing wrong with if it is based on faith as opposed to absolutism. Proving such things is hard as it is..disproving quite easy.
[/QUOTE]
All the religious texts of the world can have some such statements that if some molding and altrations/manufacturing is done on them, they then can be claimed to be exactly in accordence with the established scientific facts.
The problem with pakistani muslims is that they do not even recognize their own roots. They have wrongly assumed that their roots are in arabia and in central asia, persia etc.
The real situation is that majority are native indians. Muhammad bin qasim is their hero who was an invader. Their forefathers lost a war against that invader. Other foreign muslim rulers are also the heros of pakistani muslims.
The history of pakistan/india according to pakistani usual approach starts with the invasion of muhammad bin qasim. Pakistanies normally do not know that still ancient good history of this (their own) area also existed. So they do not know about their own roots. They are under the trance of an ancient, out dated and too much rigid foreign arabian culture and teachings.
Here on this same thread you have seen that one pakistani muslim has denied that his ancestors are not indians.
I ask him, has he seen that his ancestors are not indians.....?? why he is very much confident in that....??? is it written is some (his) holy book...??
Pakistanies need to recognize their own roots. And after recognizing that should not become rigid on that. Then they should absorb new, good and freash idealogies of all other culture includin arabian, if they also have some good thing to offer.
Only in this way they can become a progressive nation.
And I think you are indian (i.e. not pakistani).........am I right..??
Yaar ChaChoo, changing action is such a task which is just impossible to achieve. Ok try to change your action. When u feel that now your actions are in conformity to your thought, then come here. I think even then even I would be able to point out some still remaining contradictions and inconsistencies in your thought and action.<<
How do you know what my actions are or will be?
To change action upto a level where it is absolutely consistent with your religious teachings is impossible to achieve.<<
That's what makes life fun, to achieve the impossible, look around you people have achieved the impossible since the beginning of time.
If it were possible then why up till now it has not been achieved in any time period in any part of the world.<<
That is not true, history is littered with examples where people did achieve it.
In the initial times of islam, presence of "munafiqeen" is evident to you.<<
Dunno what is your point here?
In later period your 2 or 3 Caliphs were murdered by the "muslims".
In still later period, your hazrat hussain was killed by muslims.<<
So Muslims are humans they make mistakes like everyone else just like the people in the "advanced" societies
Colorful life styles of later khalifaas of baghdad is an historical fact.<<
So they did something they were not supposed to do.. you will find examples like these in every religion and society.
In present times, you yourself say that "muslims are not following quran and hadith".<<
Seems like the majority... very unfortunate.. but inshaAllah it will improve and it is gradually
So do not go after impossible tasks.<<
Is this the motto we should all be following? Is this how the "advanced” nations got to where they are today?
And again I would say that try to find the realist cause of your backwardness. Non-followance of quran-hadith is not the reason of your backwardness. <<
I still strongly believe that the cause I stated earlier, we (Muslims) are in the state that we are in today is due to the confusion and hypocritical attitude towards the religion.
Can you please define "backwardness"?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
Yaar ChaChoo, changing action is such a task which is just impossible to achieve. Ok try to change your action. When u feel that now your actions are in conformity to your thought, then come here. I think even then even I would be able to point out some still remaining contradictions and inconsistencies in your thought and action.<<
How do you know what my actions are or will be?
To change action upto a level where it is absolutely consistent with your religious teachings is impossible to achieve.<<
That's what makes life fun, to achieve the impossible, look around you people have achieved the impossible since the beginning of time.
If it were possible then why up till now it has not been achieved in any time period in any part of the world.<<
That is not true, history is littered with examples where people did achieve it.
In the initial times of islam, presence of "munafiqeen" is evident to you.<<
Dunno what is your point here?
In later period your 2 or 3 Caliphs were murdered by the "muslims".
In still later period, your hazrat hussain was killed by muslims.<<
So Muslims are humans they make mistakes like everyone else just like the people in the "advanced" societies
Colorful life styles of later khalifaas of baghdad is an historical fact.<<
So they did something they were not supposed to do.. you will find examples like these in every religion and society.
In present times, you yourself say that "muslims are not following quran and hadith".<<
Seems like the majority... very unfortunate.. but inshaAllah it will improve and it is gradually
So do not go after impossible tasks.<<
Is this the motto we should all be following? Is this how the "advanced” nations got to where they are today?
And again I would say that try to find the realist cause of your backwardness. Non-followance of quran-hadith is not the reason of your backwardness. <<
I still strongly believe that the cause I stated earlier, we (Muslims) are in the state that we are in today is due to the confusion and hypocritical attitude towards the religion.
Can you please define "backwardness"?
[/QUOTE]
<<
Consider following your own words in your previous post:
"You are entitled to your view... I would rather change my actions to match up with my thoughts if my thoughts are following Hadith and Quran."
In above statement you have expressed your wish to "change your actions to match up with your thoughts.
So I concluded that currently your actions are not in accordence with your thoughts. You are supporting your religion so it means that your thoughts are religious (islamic). Up till now you only "want" to make your actions consistent with your thoughts (which is islamic). It means that up till now a difference exists in your thoughts and actions. Your thoughts are islamic. Your action must have to be different or inconsistent with islamis idealogy. That is why you want to make it consistent.
So I know your actions ARE not exactly in accordence with your islamic idealogy.
I also know that it is impossible for one to make his actions exactly in accordence with islamic idealogy and rigid way of life.
Therefore I also know that your actions WILL never come up to your consistent level of your islamic idealogy.
<<
Well that is a good spirit to go after impossible tasks just for fun. I also go after an impossible task.........to eradicate religious idealogy altogether from this word. I know this is impossible task so I go after it just for fun.
Neither you shall achieve your target nor I can.
And your backwardness is that you ppl are helpless before western economic and military powers. Every kind of research work is being done in western countries and you ppl are only FOLLOWING theories developed by them. You ppl are only the USERS of western invented new technologies. Western nations are LEADING you ppl and you are just FOLLOWING. This is your backwardness. Muslims currently have no important role to play in international level.
And its reasons are following:
Muslims are not doing any research work.
They are not adopting new idealogies they are only purchasing new technologies.
Muslims are not looking in forward direction. They want to go back in 1.5 thousand years old period.
Western ppl do research with great efforts and develop new theories. Then muslims open their religious books and "search" for any verse which may appear to be somewhat similar to that theory. They then mould the actual meanings of that verse and start saying that this scientific fact was already mentioned in their holy book. And they are very happy with their this false idealogy and action.
Great western scholars such as Newton says that he just has not picked up a single drop from the ocean of knowledge whereas muslim maulvies who actually know nothing claim that they already know all the facts of life and after-life. Surely this is a wrong approach.
Since muslims normally think that they already know all the facts of life and afterlife which are mentioned in their holy book, So they do not do any new research. because they do not "need" any new fact of life to become a part of their knowledge. They are very happy with their out dated 1500 years old stock of knowledge.
Muslims actually have become a static and stagnant society. Their thoughts and idealogy are static. They are not allowed to even think in a manner which is not in conformity to their rigid idealogy. This rigidy is appearant in their routine recitations of useless naats and nohas. They have become unable to think about more important matters i.e., to discover new scientific facts etc.
Above mentioned are the real causes of their backwardness but the only cause which muslims normally recognize is that "they are not following quran and hadith."**
The above mentioned cause which muslims normally recognize is not the true cause of their backwardness because only and only muslims are following quran and hadith in this world. So it is not real situation that muslims are not following quran and hadith. they are actually over-following quran and hadith. And that is also a reason of their backwardness
I’ve never seen someone sprout such scientifically unsubstantiated nonsence while advocating the cause of reason-based irreligion.
You attempt to define the current economic and technological backwardness, the inability to figure in the research community as solely a product of our beliefs and our religion.
Heres one little nugget for you that blows your bs theory on economics and religion up:
- The most research, of the highest quality and in the highest amount, by far, is done in america. 85 % of americans identify with some religious faith, 71 % say they would die for their faith, 60% (in another survey) believe that certain events ‘proven’ to be unscientific are true. Less than 9 percent do not believe in a God. Im guessing thats the figure thats closest to pakistan.
Put your money where your mouth is. Do some scientific research for gawd’s sake, and show me how any of the claims you make have any relevance beyond the realm of your head. substantiate your beliefs with some reason, any reason if you may.
Tell me, does christianity prohibit advancement? If yes, then explain america. If not, then explain latin america.