Is the U.S heading for defeat in Afghanistan?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Excuseme,but Liberty market ,Lahore was not a tribal area.

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Re: Is the U.S heading for defeat in Afghanistan?

Those who think NATO will lose in Afghanistan are in a delusional world.

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So what you are saying that it is better for Pakistan to have a Taliban dictatorship that is pro-Pakistan rather than a democracy that is pro-India....

India has other things to worry about than Pakistan.

India's economy is growing, its competing on the world stage, its leaders get invited to G-8 meetings. India's competitor is China and not Pakistan.

Pakistanis needs to realize that India has moved on to compete with China and after 9/11 the world is not going to allow this double game that Pakistan is playing of using Afghanistan to launch attacks in Kashmir.

Pakistan will never get Kashmir back.

Its time to destroy Islamic militancy in Pakistan and build what we have inside Pakistan rather than waste resources on a pointless struggle.

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Democracy in Afghanistan or any Central Asian State? do you know anything about Afghanistan? any idea about the ground realities?

[quote="“mercenary2k, post:14, topic:207811"”]

India has other things to worry about than Pakistan.

[/quote]

apparently India have nothing else but Pakistan on their hands, the ground realities are, if some body have triplet in India, they blame it on Pakistan.. very few murders in India are not blamed on Pakistan, every thing else Happens in India, it is being blamed on Pakistan for last 62 years or so… so please get ur facts straight…

I wish this has been the case, but on ground, they want to turn blind eye to China and want to focus on Pakistan…

Funny, that you only noticed this, Indian thinks otherwise, any way this would have been an ideal scenario for India ( competing china) but the ground realities are bit harsh to digest,

anyways, Pakistan want to have a friendly govt in Afghanistan so that it doesn’t have to worry about NWFP and Balochistan borders, where Indians fund and launch terrorist using Afghanistan.. now it is in Interest of Pakistan to have stronghold in Afghanistan and at the same time restrict Indians to their limits… I don’t know what problem you have in this game?

[quote="“mercenary2k, post:14, topic:207811"”]

Pakistan will never get Kashmir back.

[/quote]

may be not, or may we will get it back, thankyou for your advice and please get back to your work.. we will try to have it back..

[quote="“mercenary2k, post:14, topic:207811"”]

Its time to destroy Islamic militancy in Pakistan and build what we have inside Pakistan rather than waste resources on a pointless struggle.
[/quote]

We are doing it and we while doing so, we have to eliminate the risks ( which you will never understand) like any average american you are advocating democracy in Afghanistan which is a laughing stock in its self, please let the countries groom by themselves and let choose their style of govt according to their cultures.. strange enough american does not promote democracy in Middle east ( may be oil is at risk) …

Sing a Song according 2 Ur Mood !!!!!
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Med, pretty good analysis bro, but a few comments:

  • Instead of "using" a group to rule Afghanistan, why can't we try to go for broad based support from the population? India, like it or not has made infrastructural investments in Afghanistan, while the Paks. have (arguably) been a more crucial conduit to the survival of the state yet we gone unrecognized.

Pakhtun uprising: I hope you realize that there are Pakhtuns in Pakistan than Afghanistan and if there was an uprising, the Pakistani would not be able to contain, I assure you. I think even the pro-Pakistan Pakhtun will agree that the links with Afghanistan should stregenthened (ideally through coordinated trade and development).

  • that being said, I do believe that the Taliban in Afghanistan did swept up in the anti-American furor and their weakest link to 9-11. If they had given up Osama, they probbly would still be in power. Talibs were quite successful in consolidating over a fracturous country like Afghanistan and there is no doubt that the government was comparatively less corrupt than the presently American sponsored regime.

We do need a friendly Afghanistan. Instead of seeking a client state, we should be working with them as our junior partners. It's topo bad that successiv Pakistani governments have been all talk and little action when it comes a long term Afghanistan policy.

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and what do u mean, liberty was taken over taliban lol
and ppl who have seen the footage know the group who attacked in liberty were not even talibans. so whats your point ? shooting in the air!

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Re: Is the U.S heading for defeat in Afghanistan?

I thought that the Taliban was being provided for by India. So if Taliban wins, would'nt it be bad for Pakistan...

ps: I am being sarcastic.

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Re: Is the U.S heading for defeat in Afghanistan?

taliban win, what ? its like a joke.

keep on dreaming :@:

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Please give reasons for your opinion.

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Terrorist attacks happen all the time... Since when is Mumbai, and all the toher places where India been attacked the tribal areas?!?!

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India has better things to worry about then Pakistan?!?!
A bit naive there my friend...

And keep waiting for the glory days of Afghan democracy. From what I can see, the Afghans are falling lock step with the Taliban once again oweing to the inherant weakness and corruption of their govt.
So a strong and friendly Taliban regime actually is preferable over a weak and corrupt Afghan democracy. One that is hostile towards Paksitan and indirectly facilitates the Taliban both there and in Pak.

Despite all you say, India DOES want strategic depth as its called... And Afghanistan being where it is makes it ideal. I never said that India was INVADING Pakistan tommorow. But its stupidity if you think they dont atleast want to have control over Pakistan or influence over her neighbors.

And read the history of Afghan PAK relations and you will relaize the amount of hostility the Afghans have had for PAKISTAN.

I think you underestimate Indias intentions. Do you not think that Indians regard Pakistan as a potential threat to their interests?!?!

As an example, I doubt the US is competing with North Korea. But that doesnt mean they dont want some influence in the region there...

Whether you like it or not, Pakistan still has actual security concerns. You can parrot the Indians all you like, but that doesnt change ground realites.
The Taliban taking control in Afghanistan doesnt necesarilly mean Pakistan is supporting extremists in its own country.
I would counter that having the Americans in Afghanistan, with a inept and corrupt and openly hostile govt in Kabul is what actually causing much of the trouble in Paksitan.

I would love to see a prosperous Afghan democracy. But that is not going to happen. And im not rooting for the Taliban, im just saying that having them in power in Afghanistan isnt the end of the world for Pakistan. Infact it might bring some stability back to the region.
Better the devil you know, then the devil you dont.

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Broad base in Afghaniastan is all but non existant. The Afghans are infamous in their lack of unity. The best time in their hsitory seems to be when they were ruled by a single power holder or group. I mean compare Afghanistan under Zahir Shah to the one after Zahir Shah.
The Soviet Occupation was an attempt to change the a status quo and create a more egaliterian society, but look where that got them.
Unless Afghans mature on their own, and come together to rule their country peacefully, nothing will come of it. And Pakistan will have to bear the brunt of Afghanistans problems. So, if I have to choose, I choose PAKISTAN at the expense of Afghanistan. If they cant fix their problems, then we shouldnt bear the cost.

Yes, I dont doubt the loyalty of the Pashtuns, barring the few ultra nationalists among them. But Pak meddling in Afghan affairs had more complex reason behind it.

Besides the Afghans instigating insurgents within Pakistan, we also had to contend with the Afghans facilitating Indians in the region. India has always been a genuine security threat to the state of Paksitan. A hostile Afghanistan meant that India would surround Pak on both sides.
And no doubt, that is why India is so intrested in helping the Afghans today. It has nothing to do with some benign Indian love for Afghan people, and everything to do with Indians trying to gain strategic depth at the expense of Pakistan.
Also, the fallout of the Soviet invasion, and the subsequent civil war and unrest, meant that Pakistan had to take in millions of Afghan refugees... Not an easy task for country struggling on its own.
So thus another reason for wanting to impose a stable regime in Afghanistan.

Links with Afghanistan should be strengthened, but Pak must be careful not to allow Indians to much influence over them. How that can be done is a moot point.

But all things asside, I seriously doubt the Afghans are going to get the stable deomcracy everyone is craving. They simply arent ready, and in the process of getting ready, Pakistan will have to bear the brunt of it. The sad irony is that while Indians get the credit and and the profit out of Afghanistan, Pakistan is the one that gets spat on simply due to our geographical location.
We can work with a stable govt, not the mess that it is today.
The govt is filled with former warlords who have a lot of hate for Paksitan. On top of that, you have the Taliban, which now hate both them and us.
The Taliban arent going to allow the Afghan democracy to grow. The Amricans are floundering.
Its a complete mess and it seems PAKISTAN IS DAMNED EITHER WAY.

Our best intrest at this point is for the Afghan govt and the Taliban to come to some agreement.

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There are different kinds of democracies....there is the Jeffersonian Democracy which is in USA...and there is parliamentary democracy which is practiced by England and most of the British commonwealth....

Democracy can work in Afghanistan provided that there is a weak central government and most of the power is wielded by the provinces

I can understand why as a Pakistani democracy may seem like an alien concept to you.

That is basically what the Pakistani media wants you to believe. India has moved on. India cares more about developing its economy and why would it risk that in a war with Pakistan. Do you really think that India gains with a Pakistan in turmoil? The chaos will spillover to India.

India prefers a stable Pakistan which is an economic partner rather than an adversary.

That is like USA preferring that Mexico is in chaos over a stable mexico. The mexican drug cartel is spilling over to USA.

And focus on what exactly on Pakistan...please elaborate

How so?

The whole world when they talk about rising economies...they say China and India....

When they talk about global competitors...they say China and India....

Even the well received book, The World is Flat...talks about the rise of China and India....

So you much rather prefer a friendly dictatorship which brutalizes its people over a democracy which is not taking its marching orders from Islamabad?

And do you have any proof that India is funding all these attacks or you just can't comprehend that there are muslims extremists who are launching these attacks and you just use India as a typical excuse to explain the failures of Pakistan

ok....and while you are trying....most of Pakistan's resources are being wasted on this pointless struggle and the country is not being developed.....brilliant strategy....and then you blame India for pakistan's failures....wow...blame anyone but yourself

so the taliban were an afghan creation? didn't pakistan create them in 1992 and use them to take over Afghanistan to create strategic depth?

I just read a poll in which 90% of people of Afghanistan are against the Taliban...thats why they seek refuge in Pakistan and cannot hide in Afghan cities because they do not enjoy local support....

Afghan people do not support the Taliban...whether you mr.hanibal like it or not.

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Just for ur info, as others may know, there are countries and people live in those countries other than USA and UK, that first

secondly, if this is what u get from democracy, ( above million are already dead) what we have in Iraq and Afghanistan, then other form of govts are ten time better, it would be good for UK and USA to mind their own business and does not enforce their models on different countrie...

This typical reply of urs does give the indication that you actually do not have any glimpse of reality about the relationship of India and Pakistan and their respective media, their main stream news channel continously bash Pakistan as if it is their religious duty, ever watched an Indian channel??? and please keep this your non-sense of THIS IS WHAT PAKISTANI CHANNEL WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE crap, in cases where Indian involvement is obvious, Pakistan channels and minister calls it foriegn involvement and not Indian involvment....but i guess you have no idea what media means as you do not watch tv channels, in that case, how can you comment on one, oh yes i know how, this is typical american mentalliy to show that we know everything and infact they know nothing

according to Indians and Indian media, anything goes wrong in the world, and in India it is Pakistan who did it... if this does not elaborate it then, google it kiddo!

yes they did call it, BRIC is being discussed every now and then, but Indians with all this rise in economical boom are still living the narrow world, where the only country which exists in Pakistan, may be it is their politicians who want to build their vote bank on politics of hatred or may be it is in their psychology to hate and work continously to de-stablize Pakistan.. whatever the case is, India if continued they way it is, it will soon be out of the race of rising economies... I still believe that if India & Pakistan learns to live like a peaceful neighbours, then this region will become the center fo economy and trade but the condition is tough specially for our Indian counter parts

i don't care what they have in Afghanistan as long as it is not a threat to Pakistan, democracy or no democracy, my focus is the land of Afghanistan sholdn't be used against Pakistan, and if Afghans do not know how to control their land then obviously there will be somebody influencing them, I would like a Pakistan influenced govt in Afghanistan...

again u r not aware of the importance of Kashmir, just for ur info, the land is water rich, many of the main rivers of Pakistan are from Kashmir.. in this scenario, no matter what recources are spent, Pakistan should not giveup its claim on Kashmiri land

Taliban was a joint production of ISI and CIA, ISI's interest was to get rid of Indian backed govt, and CIA had its own interest, Pakistan cannot be blamed for the creation of Taliban alone, anyway, doesn't matter what Afghan people want or what American or people of any nation want, what happens is what the powerful group of a particular nation wants... Taliban are conrolling almost 70%+ area of Afghanistan and this is after 8/9 years of Nato presence and immense use of fire power... what is next...

The solution of Afghan problem is simple, and Zardari and said it all, please google if you are interested..

▲ Khawab !
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And for your info..those countries have no freedom…religious or political…

Just because that millions died does not mean that Democracy is a bad concept…I didnt support the US invasion of Iraq but unlike you I do not support dictatorships either

So you spend all your time watching Indian channels…and you complain about Indians being obsessed with Pakistan.

Keep up the delusions

And what is Indians? there are over 1 billion of them…you claim to know all of them personally? :hehe:

and there are hundreds of channels in India which cater to local populations who do not speak Hindi

Are you claiming you can converse in all those languages and understand what they are saying? :rotfl:

No…that is a delusion which you live in…India has long passed Pakistan…

Pakistan is more like a Banana republic akin to USA and Cuba…Cuba once a threat to USA by hosting Soviet Missiles but now its nothing more than an afterthought of Fidel Castro and his brother

the average cuban fed the diet of anti-americanism will repeat the same nonsense as you…just replace USA with India

So a murderous dictatorship is ok with you…rather than a democracy which reprepents the people

Ok Got it.

And is Pakistan any closer to getting Kashmir than it was 60 years ago?

Do you not think that we can negotiate for such things instead of resorting to force…or are you living in the delusions that 1 Pakistani soldier = 10 Indians…

Its thought like that that we lost Bangladesh…

Ah…Afghans should not have a say on how should they run their country…

Please tell me more…

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**Broad base in Afghaniastan is all but non existant. The Afghans are infamous in their lack of unity. The best time in their hsitory seems to be when they were ruled by a single power holder or group. I mean compare Afghanistan under Zahir Shah to the one after Zahir Shah.
The Soviet Occupation was an attempt to change the a status quo and create a more egaliterian society, but look where that got them.
Unless Afghans mature on their own, and come together to rule their country peacefully, nothing will come of it. And Pakistan will have to bear the brunt of Afghanistans problems. So, if I have to choose, I choose PAKISTAN at the expense of Afghanistan. If they cant fix their problems, then we shouldnt bear the cost.

*Pakistan is bearing and will be bearing the cost regardless of whether Afghans unite. By the way, what I meant by board based Afghan support meant the Pakhtuns in the country. Without Pakhtuns, there is no Afghanistan. With the Taliban, Pakistan was in a position to work with Afghans - both in terms of the Talibs consolidation of power and cooperation as a Muslim neighbor. Engaging the dari speaking minorities will not yield any favorable results for Pakistan.
*
Yes, I dont doubt the loyalty of the Pashtuns, barring the few ultra nationalists among them. But Pak meddling in Afghan affairs had more complex reason behind it.

Besides the Afghans instigating insurgents within Pakistan, we also had to contend with the Afghans facilitating Indians in the region. India has always been a genuine security threat to the state of Paksitan. A hostile Afghanistan meant that India would surround Pak on both sides. **

Agreed. Only a regime Islamic in orientation will be favorable to Pakistan. India has used Afghanistan as a launnch pad to destabilize Baluchistan and parts of Pakhtunkhwa and will continue to use that base to hit us from the back.

*And no doubt, that is why India is so intrested in helping the Afghans today. It has nothing to do with some benign Indian love for Afghan people, and everything to do with Indians trying to gain strategic depth at the expense of Pakistan.
Also, the fallout of the Soviet invasion, and the subsequent civil war and unrest, meant that Pakistan had to take in millions of Afghan refugees... Not an easy task for country struggling on its own.
So thus another reason for wanting to impose a stable regime in Afghanistan.
*

Indians are using Afghans to destabilize Pakistan and spread influence in Central Asia, while the Afghan regime is looking for material/infustructural benefits. It's a win-win for them right now. I am not sure how we can "impose" a stable regime, particularly since NATO/US troops are there. I consider the Taliban and other factions figt off NATO/US to be freedom fighters, these were the same type of people that fought the Soviets when their nation was attacked so HOW is this different?

*Links with Afghanistan should be strengthened, but Pak must be careful not to allow Indians to much influence over them. How that can be done is a moot point. *

The best way to play defense is to go on the offensive. We stand discredited by much of teh country including the Taliban for the last minute turning of our backs becuase of bigdaddy USA. We can not continue to play double game of being a major US/NATO ally while having segments of support for the Taliban. Either we make it clear with the Americans that moderate Taliban elements should be reintegrated into the power structure or we abandon our support for the insurgency.

**
But all things asside, I seriously doubt the Afghans are going to get the stable deomcracy everyone is craving. They simply arent ready, and in the process of getting ready, Pakistan will have to bear the brunt of it. The sad irony is that while Indians get the credit and and the profit out of Afghanistan, Pakistan is the one that gets spat on simply due to our geographical location.
We can work with a stable govt, not the mess that it is today.
The govt is filled with former warlords who have a lot of hate for Paksitan. On top of that, you have the Taliban, which now hate both them and us.
The Taliban arent going to allow the Afghan democracy to grow. The Amricans are floundering.
Its a complete mess and it seems PAKISTAN IS DAMNED EITHER WAY. **

Exactly, the only way forward is to make sure Pakhtun interests in Afghanistan are well represented because no other group in Afghan. is even willing to listen to Pakistan and has already allied with the India-Iran axis. Some time ago I had called fpr engaging Iran over Afghanistan and other issues. Like it or not, the Iranians play the proxy game well (Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Palestine) and we must be able to find a way of driving wedge between the Indian interests and the dari speaking minorities.

Our best intrest at this point is for the Afghan govt and the Taliban to come to some agreement.

Pakistan's Afghan policy is in shambles for this very reason. Unless we decide to wait until the US is gone (and it will be gone for sure) we have no great options at the moment.

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May be true but does the people in UK and USA enjoys freedom in its true spirit, maybe yes, then please keep this spirit to ur self, as it may not suit to the taste of many culture/nations around the globe. so keep it there and do not replicate the model in other countries, if done, the result will be no different then what we had in Vietnam, and having it in Iraq and Afghanistan

I totally understand you here, for you if a person does belong to USA or UK then his life worth nothing, so doesn’t matter if the death toll is in million or in zillion.. they are not human after all… now what if these people have evolved on their own, they might have came up with a better model of democracy, the model which suits their culture and which could have been understood by the people… yes there is possibility that those who died might have brilliant head on their shoulders ( i know it is strange thing for you to know that other people on the planet have brains in their head). But this death toll have told us that democracy is the worst form of govt, i.e. firstly, millions of people have to sacrifice their life and in result of that sacrifice a corrupt govt ( puppet govt) came into existence which have little to do with the public interest and more to serve US or UK…

No some of the time is spent with retards like you…

Only you could have come with this kind of non-sense… i never ever claim that i know all the indians personally, please show me where i said that or this is one of you imagination you had while gazzing at the grey screen of TV.. this is example of delusion…

Only you can come up with these kind of jokes, i think u r out of arguments and now like a typical ignorant have started with non-sense. i am sorry i cannot answer non-sense…

What ever is good for Pakistan is ok with me, i don’t care if it is murderous democracy ( as we have now in Afghanistan and Iraq) or dictatorship…

Doesn’t matter if it takes another 60 years.. u see your problem is you know nothing about ground realities and you try to comment on them, and ur comment turns into a joke, please educate yourself, try to google,they might have something for the low IQ people as well, you can benefit form it…

It is said in Quran and Hadees that a True Muslim is equals to 10, i know you might have doubts on Quran as well.. but then another 4 billion people do not believe on this book…

yup only Afghans, not Americans.. the only thing or option Americans have to leave Afghanistan and let the regional power deal with it, Americans have to leave, they can leave now or they can leave after spending some more of their valuable resources… they r the choosers .. the longer they stay the more they gonna loose…

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I see you prefer dictatorships over democracy. Ok got it.

Again…I dont know why you do not understand this concept. I did not support US invasion of Iraq nor their quest to bring democracy to the middle east.

I did support the invasion of Afghanistan because Taliban were harboring Al Qaeda terrorists who were plotting global attacks.

So its a mute point you are raising

I know intelligence is in short supply with you, but to go to this level is demeaning and requires medical attention.

Whats the matter…are you embarrassed by your own logic? :rotfl:

This is what you said:

according to Indians and Indian media, anything goes wrong in the world, and in India it is Pakistan who did it

now don’t be embarrased

so nothing intelligent to say?

so a genocidal dictatorship is good with you as long as it benefits Pakistan.

Ok…thanks for clarifying…

so…does that mean if you get into a fight with 10 indians you will win because you are a muslim? :hehe:

thanks for the concern