(HH)
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
The holy qur’an has asked us that we do:
[al-Ma’idah 5:35] O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed.
Quran tells us that there exists a means of approaching - “al-Wasilah” - for us
in each era.
ws.
Umar bin Khattab used to make tawassul for rain.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/017.sbt.html
Sahih Bukhari:
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 123:
Narrated Anas:
Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ASK HIS uncle to INVOKE YOU for rain.
O Allah ! Bless us with rain."(1) And so it would rain.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/017.sbt.html
Volume 2, Book 17, Number 126:
Narrated Sharik bin 'Abdullah bin Abi Namir:
I heard Anas bin Malik saying, "On a Friday a person entered the main Mosque through the gate facing the pulpit while Allah’s Apostle was delivering the Khutba. The man stood in front of Allah’s Apostle and said, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! The livestock are dying and the roads are cut off; so PLEASE PRAY TO Allah for rain.’ " Anas added, "Allah’s Apostle (p.b.u.h) raised both his hands and said, ‘O Allah! Bless us with rain! O Allah! Bless us with rain! O Allah! Bless us with rain!’ "
We can see from this instance that the man was not told by our holy apostle (pbuh) to pray to Allah (swt) directly.
The prophet (pbuh) was used as an intercessor to ask help from the Almighty (swt).
ws.
Well I can't see why there should be any wrong asking other living people to ask God for something for us....
....after all, whenever we are in trouble, don't we ask our friends to pray for us?
By the way Brother a1shah, what exactly does the word wasilah mean? I've heard it twice now on Gupshup......
[quote]
Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT:
**Well I can't see why there should be any wrong asking other living people to ask God for something for us....
....after all, whenever we are in trouble, don't we ask our friends to pray for us?
By the way Brother a1shah, what exactly does the word wasilah mean? I've heard it twice now on Gupshup......**
[/quote]
As regarding making awliya Allah as a waseela Allah Tala says, " Those chosen bondman whom these infidels worship, they themselves excess towards that who is nearer to him in than they hope for his mercy and fear his torment " Bani Isreal verse 57
This verse teaches that to make waseela is the act of the pious servants of Allah.
The Holy Prophet himself taught his companion to make Dua by his own waseela. Allama Tirmizi narrats that:
A blind man said to the Prophet pray that Allah may grant me goodness The Prophet (peace be upon him) said if you want, I can pray for you, or you can be patient and this is better for you. He said master (peace be upon him pray for me. The Prophet (peace be upon him) ordered him to perform wudu well and recite this Dua after offering two rakats of salaah.
"O Allah I ask from you and make a mediator and draw my concentration towards you via your prophet ( peace be upon him) who is the merciful Prophet (peace be upon him ). O Rasoolallah (Peace be upon Him), I turn to my lord ( the most high) regarding this need via you so that my need be fulfilled. Lord (the most high accept His (peace be upon him) intercession for me.
Brother MS,
The holy qur'an has defined wasilah as "means of seeking approach or nearness to".
There are some who view calling upon our holy prophet (pbuh) and his holy progeny as a wasilah as shirk.
It is hoped that we can clarify some mis-understandings in this thread.
ws
Oh ok. Well in that case, here’s my 2 cents on the matter… (yes, I know this will make people call me a wahabi… )
I personally cannot see the point of requesting one who is dead to ask Allah for something. The cases which have been highlighted above, I feel, support my point.
The best example is here. **Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ASK HIS uncle to INVOKE YOU for rain. **
Here it can be seen that whilst the Prophet (SAWS) was alive, people would ask him to pray for something good to happen to them; whereas after he died they ceased and resorted to asking other living, pious people to pray for them.
And as for
O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed.,
could “ways of approach” not means ways to draw nearer to Allah? For example, by prayers, by spending in charity, by studying the Quran, by jihad, and so on?
Just my 2 cents. Okay, now I’m ready to be flamed…come on, people!
MD,
No flames required. The argument you put forth is the typical response from the opponents of tawasul.
To consider the holy apostle (pbuh) and his imams as dead is incorrect.
Imam Ali (as) and all the martyrs are alive as Quran clearly testifies, though they are not on earth.
So please do not treat them as dead. Allah (swt) states in Quran:
Think not of those who are martyred in the way of Allah as dead. Nay! They are living, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord." (Quran 3:169)
In fact all of our Imams except Imam Mahdi (as) were martyred either by sword or
by poison.
Moreover, there are quite strong proofs in both Shia and Sunni texts that the Prophet (pbuh) himself was also poisoned by a Jew in the battle of Khaibar, and the poison slowly worked on his body till it finally killed
him. I will point to two traditions from Sahih al-Bukhari:
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.551
Narrated Abu Huraira:
When Khaibar was conquered, a (cooked) sheep containing poison, was given as a present to Allah's Apostle.
Sahih Bukhari Hadith: 5.713
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
So they should not be called dead since they are alive according to Quran.
ws.
Very well, I see your point. However, again basing myself on what you posted:
Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ASK HIS uncle to INVOKE YOU for rain.
If what Umar (ra) was doing here was tawassul, as you say, then why was he requesting Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to ask Allah for rain? Why not continue to ask the Prophet (SAWS) for rain?
I feel that the cause is that he felt that the Prophet (SAWS) could no longer hear him.
My personal opinion in the matter is that yes, all of the martyrs and the Prophet (SAWS) in the cause of Allah are very much alive in the presence of Allah, as opposed to (as far as I understand) receiving the reward of the grave (I belive I read that in the grave, the dead either receive a taste of paradise or a taste of hell).
However, I am not so sure if sufficient evidence exists that even the martyrs hear us should we call on them. If this were the case, one would expect the practise of calling on the Prophet (SAWS) to be far far more widespread than it is today, given his importance to all Muslims.
On the other hand, I do concede one major flaw in my argument. As part of my prayers, I am required to say "Peace be upon you, Prophet, and the mercy of Allah and his blessings." Now that would appear to serve no point if he could not hear me.
Interesting. I shall have to consult a scholar for further insight.........
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited June 11, 2001).]
I personally do not believe in asking any other than Allah SWTA for something. I do go to the graves of the deceased and make Dua for them, but do not ask for anything on anyones behalf. The Qur'aan quite clearly makes this obvious.
'Surely, those whom you call on in prayer besides Allah are servants like yourself'. 7:194
'Say (O Muhammad), I have no power to bring good or avert harm even from myself, except if Allah wills. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I would surely have accumulated only good and no evil would have befallen me'. 7:188
'The decision rests only with Allah. I put my trust in Him alone and all who trust should only trust in Him'. 12:67
'Allah created all things and He is the agent on which all things depend'. 39:62
' O believers, seek help in patience and prayer. Truly, Allah is with those who are patient'. 2:153
The above ayats are self explanatory and do not require translations.
When we depart from this earth, we are onto the next stage of our journey, where our mere physical (clay) partition has been dissolved, but the Spirit is returned whilst in the grave.
Furthermore, a barrier called the Burzakh is put between us, therefore no intercession can be made. I can elaborate further if required.
I don't have knowledge of "wasilah" as for now. But to answer one of question from mad_scientist, the dead people hear more than us. There is a hadith where after ghazwa, Prophet PBUH asked the dead kuffars if they've seen what Allah promised for them (or similar meaning) and one of companions asked how could he (Prophet PBUH) talk to dead while they can't hear, in response to the companion's question Prophet PBUH replied that they (dead) hear better than the ones who are alive.
why should we seek wasilah? i'm naive on this subject, will try to learn on this too as to my knowledge this is how Hinduism or Idol-worshipping started... 'middle-man'.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
MD;
Firstly, I would like to extend my congratulations on yr marriage. May Allah (swt) bless you and keep you both free from all sorrows except from the sorrows of kerbala.
As for the hadith I posted earlier, it is to show opponents - such as Sholay - who believe that tawassul is not permitted in any situation.
In this circumstance, Umar chose to appeal to Allah (swt) through the uncle of the holy apostle (pbuh). Why his uncle and not someone else is inconsequential. The point is to prove that this ACT of tawassual is a sunnat of the holy prophet (pbuh).
As you have seen, the qur'an testifies that martyrs are alive and so it should be clear that we can make our holy rasul (pbuh) and his sinless progeny - those purified souls as testified by the qur'an in ayat 33:33 - as a wasilah to approach the Almighty.
And as for whether seeking a wasilah is wide spread or not, there are a 150 million of your brothers and sisters who seek nearness to Allah (swt) through the intercession of our beloved prophet (pbuh) and his sinless ahl bait.
ws
[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited June 11, 2001).]
Sholay,
To deny tawassul is to go against the directives of the holy qur'an and the sunnat of the holy apostle (pbuh).
I have posted hadiths from Sahih Bukhari showing Umar bin Khattab appealing to Allah (swt) for rain through the uncle of the holy apostle (pbuh).
In fact, both Tawassul and Wasilah are from
the same root. When we make Tawassul, it means that we seek the Mercy of
Allah by resorting to a connection who was more obedient toward Allah and,
as a result, Allah answers his/her prayers faster than us. Allah may
forgive us for the credit and the honor of that man/woman.
The qur'an says:
[al-Baqarah 2:255] Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. >> Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave ? <<
Also direct yr attention to the following verse:
[al-Anbiya' 21:27] They (prophets and imams) speak not until He hath spoken, and they act by His command.
[al-Anbiya' 21:28] He knoweth what is before them and what is behind them, >> and they cannot intercede except for him whom He accepteth, and they quake for awe of Him. <<
Looking at the verses in >> <<, we can clearly see that some specific people can intercede with Allah (swt) by His permission. But this is not granted to every people.
ws
Maddy
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Is there something going on which you haven’t been telling me about?
They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?
I think I read it in the other thread. I hope that I am not mistaken
Dear A1shah,
I am not an opponent, for starters and furhermore, the Qur'aan supercedes any A'Hadeeth.
The ayats you quote of 21:27-28 has nothing to do with Tawassul.
This is the context of the ayats: from 26-29,
The Makkan mushrikin were refuted. They worshipped the angels as deities and believed them to be offspring of the Compassionate and as intercessors. They were told'Angels are nothing but honoured servants who stand in awe of Allah. They do not intercede except for him with whom Allah is pleased. If any one of them were to say, 'I am also a deity, besides Allah' Allah will recompense him with Hell'.
As I've stated before, I'm no fool and take my beliefs very seriously, so please deliver the actual Synopsis of Content when quoting the Qur'aan.
In addition the only person who was sinless was the Prophet PBUH alone, as it was only his past and previous sins that were washed whe the heart was cleansed and Sealhood was delivered.
Finally the Qur'aan states:
Allah SWTA says in Surah Ale Imraan (32):
Certainly Allah has chosen Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham and the family of Imraan above the (families of the) worlds."
So please let's not go to the extremes and put A'Hadeeth before the Qur'aan.
Sholay,
Your interpretation of verse 21:27 being ONLY about angels is in err. Below, is the ayat in its context:
http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/noble/nobae021.htm
And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad SAW) but We inspired him (saying): Lâ ilâha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allâh)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)."
And they say: “The Most Beneficent (Allâh) has begotten a son (or children).” Glory to Him! They [those whom they call children of Allâh i.e. the angels, 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), 'Uzair (Ezra), etc.], are but honoured slaves.
They speak not until He has spoken, and they act on His Command.
He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they cannot intercede except for him with whom He is pleased. And they stand in awe for fear of Him.
The ayat is talking about Allah’s (swt) honored slaves. These include prophets, imams (saints), and angels.
Going back to verse (21:28), you can now see that these HONORED PERSONALITIES can intercede by the Almighty’s permission:
“… and they cannot intercede except for him with whom He is pleased. And they stand in awe for fear of Him.” << (21:28)
I have provided the link for the ayat’s translation as reference.
And Sholay, these hadith books are “Sahih” or authentic as proclaimed by the ahl-sunnat.
Its amazing how easily you have dismissed these authentic hadiths of yours without even having researched into their authenticity.
As soon as you find something that does not agree with your beliefs, you discard it.
Is this the way we should be operating ?
ws
Sholay,
I see that you have conveniently missed commenting on verse (2:255). Here it is once again for yr perusal:
Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists.
Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth.
Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? <<
He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursî] extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursî.]
Examining the verses in >> <<, we can see clearly that intercession is allowed by certain holy individuals BY Allah (swt)'s permission.
And Sholay, I have given you proof from Sahih Muslim in an earlier thread that clearly states that verse (33:33) - the verse of purification - refers to our holy ahl bait and his sinless progeny.
I am reproducing here for yr convenience:
Please find the following link to Sahih Muslim for the hadith below: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/hadeeth/muslim/031_smt.html#009_b31
Chapter 9 : THEE MERITS OF THE FAMILY OF THE PROPHET (MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM)
Book 31, Number 5955:
'A’isha reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one norning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel’s hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying).
The above statement can be found in verse 33:33 of the holy qur’an
Now if you choose not to believe in these hadiths as well… well, I’ll leave that up to you.
ws
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
*>> Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? <<
*
[/quote]
I have always heard this verse as referring to intercession on the Day of Judgement, on the Prophet (SAWS) promised to intercede for every Muslim......
and a1shah.... I'm not married, that other thread was a joke!!!
[This message has been edited by mAd_ScIeNtIsT (edited June 12, 2001).]
A1shah
'And those whom they invoke besides Allah have no power of intercession;- only he who bears witness to the Truth, and they know (him)'. 43:86
'The day We shall gather the righteous to (Allah) Most Gracious, like a band presented before a king for honours, And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water,-None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission (or promise) from (Allah) Most Graciou. 19:85-87
This intercession is specifically for the Day of Judgement, not today!
The intercessions you quoted were for the Apostles at that time, not years down the line after they have returned to Allah SWTA:
'Not an apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him: that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me. And they say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour. They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His Command. He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory). If any of them should say, "I am a god besides Him", such a one We should reward with Hell: thus do We reward those who do wrong'. 21:25-29
Moving onto 2:255, I did not forget, I just didn't have time as it was getting late.
Here you go:
In the beginning of the of ayat 253-283 are explained the concepts of Unity of Allah, and that of the unity of guidance through the revelation. Lest we should forget, we are reminded of the Law of Requital.
Then are related the stories of Prophet Ibraheem AS that of one who woke up after a sleep of a hundred years, proving,if any proof is needed, that Allah is Powerful to raise the dead and call them to account. The Believers should keep this in mind and know that life of this world is nothing but temporary and, therefore, they should spend their wealth in the cause of Allah.
It's not a question of discarding what I don't believe, it's called exercising the gift of Choice. I do not believe that I need an Intercessor to speak to Allah. I make Salaat in order to speak to Allah and when Allah needs to speak to me I read the Qur'aan.
I'd rather go direct to the Source rather than via a Third Party. This may seem unacceptable to some, but it's the route I'm willing to take as the Qur'aan tells us time and time again that only Allah has the Power and is directly ACCESSIBLE.
'Allah created all things and He is the agent on which all things depend'. 39:62
' There is nothing like Him and He is the hearer and seer of all'. 42:11
' Whoever trusts in Allah will find Him sufficient'. 65:3
' The decision rests only with Allah. I put my trust in Him alone and all who trust should only trust in Him'. 12:67
' Oh believers, seek help in patience and prayer. Truly, Allah is with those who are patient'. 2:153