Is Sectarian Violence ingrained in Pakistani society?????.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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http://blog.dawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/608.450.jpg

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This image captures the grief of relatives of those who fell victim to two bomb blasts in Karachi on February 5. In deepest sorrow, they mourn their loved ones during the funeral procession. Their misery, as it is captured here, reveals the harsh reality of terrorism as it currently prevails in Pakistan. So much is lost to satisfy the desires of so few.

My Disclaimer:

By starting this thread there is no irreverence contemplated ----- what so ever ----- toward any one who follows and or any of these actual sects of Islam ----- it is rather an earnest effort to explore cause and effect of these disputes, the opportunity cost that needs to be paid and to focus on how to bridge the gap between us!

**Start of My comments: **Even today the dispute amongst Sunnis, Shiites, Muwahhiduns and Salafis actually remains one of the original purpose to ingrain or rather to sow discord among Muslims and to bring Islam into disrepute ----- Same old “divide and conquer” strategy in a new guise!

It does not matter Whether these are warranted allegations or unwarranted contentions ----- what matters the most here is the global harmony within all sects of Islam!!!. End of my comments:

Confessions Of A Brisitsh Spy!! Enmity Against Islam!

An excerpt from Memoirs Of Mr. Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East. Confessions of a British spy and British enmity against Islam.

Quote: *“In the Hijree year 1122, C.E. 1710, the Minister of Colonies sent me to Egypt, Iraq, Hidjaz and Istanbul to act as a spy and to obtain information necessary and sufficient for the breaking up of Muslims. The Ministry appointed nine more people, full of agility and courage, for the same mission and at the same time. In addition to the money, information and maps we would need, we were given a list containing names of statesmen, scholars, and chiefs of tribes. I can never forget! When I said farewell to the secretary, he said, “The future of our State is dependent on your success. Therefore you should exert your utmost energy.” *

*After a very tiresome voyage I arrived in Istanbul. I said my name was Muhammad and began to go to the mosque, Muslims’ temple. I liked the way Muslims observed discipline, cleanliness and obedience. For a moment I said to myself: Why are we fighting these innocent people? Is this what our Lord the Messiah advised us? But I at once recovered from this diabolical !] thought, and decided to carry out my duty in the best manner. *

*One day in the Ministry of Colonies I made a reference to the difference between the Sunnites and the Shiites, saying, “If Muslims knew something about life, they would resolve this Shiite-Sunnite difference among themselves and come together.” Someone interrupted me and remonstrated, “Your duty is to provoke this difference, not to think of how to bring Muslims together.” *

*Before I set out for my travel to Iraq, the secretary said, "O Hempher, you should know that there has been natural differences among human beings since God created Abel and Cain. These controversies shall continue until the return of the Messiah. So is the case with racial, tribal, territorial, national, and religious controversies. *

*"Your duty this time is to diagnose these controversies well and to report to the ministry. The more successful you are in aggravating the differences among Muslims the greater will be your service to England. *

“We, the English people, have to make mischief and arouse schism in all our colonies in order that we may live in welfare and luxury. Only by means of such instigations will we be able to demolish the Ottoman Empire. Otherwise, how could a nation with a small population bring another nation with a greater population under its sway? Look for the mouth of the chasm with all your might, and get in as soon as you find it. You should know that the Ottoman and Iranian Empires have reached the nadir of their lives. Therefore, your first duty is to instigate the people against the administration! History has shown that ‘The source of all sorts of revolutions is public rebellions.’ When the unity of Muslims is broken and the common sympathy among them is impaired, their forces will be dissolved and thus we shall easily destroy them.” Unquote:

Nuff said!

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Re: Is Sectarian Violence ingrained in Pakistani society?????.

LOL... that "Confessions of a British Spy" book is a hoax.

In 1710, there was no Ministry of Colonies or Minister of Colonies in the UK.

The book refers to British Colonies in India, the Middle East and China, and yet Britain held no colonies in India until 1757, none in the Middle east until the 19th century, and noen in China until 1842.

The book contains references to the Ottoman Empire as the "Sick Man", despite this label never being used for it until the late 19th century. Indeed during the early 1700s the Ottoman Empire was still near the peak of its power, enjoying stability and continuing to win battles against European armies.

The entire book is a falsehood, a lie written to split up Muslims more than we are already.

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Sure I do have serious doubts regarding these Memoirs and I have already indicated so in my above comments ----- It does not matter Whether these are warranted allegations or unwarranted contentions ----- what matters the most here is the global harmony within all sects of Islam!!!!!.

With exclusive reference to the excerpt in hand!

Even though above excerpt does seem to generally imply to the existence of British colonies rather than to explicitly state any specific ones, still, it does not seem to infer from premises of the existence or non existence of such colonies, but it sure seems to indicate the presence of the Ministry of Colonies in Britain during the period in question.

During the "Age of Discovery' also referred to as "Age of Exploration", which, if I am not mistaken ----- started in late 15th century and continued in to the early 17th century, during that period Europeans expeditiously mapped and explored the world. Between 15th and 16th centuries Portuguese and Spanish pioneered Oceanic explorations in Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans to explore and search "Alternate Trade Routes", these explorations soon started a race and, were joined by Britain, France and Netherlands and latter by Australia in early 1600s and at last by New Zealand in mid 1600s. Perhaps due to the tough nature of the competition Britain might have felt the need to take a proactive action for establishing the ministry of colonies at that time.

I am one hundred percent certain that twelve out of Thirteen Original Colonies existed at the time ----- these Thirteen Original Colonies were founded as follows ----- 1) New York 1613 ----- 2) New Hampshire 1623 ----- 3) Massachusetts 1628 ----- 4) Rhode Island 1630----- 5) Connecticut 1635 ----- 6) New Jersey 1664 ----- 7) Maryland 1634 ----- 8) Virginia 1607 ----- 9) North Carolina 1653 ----- 10) South Carolina 1670 11) Delaware 1638 ----- 12) Pennsylvania1681 ----- and 13) Georgia which was founded in 1733 may not have existed at the time. I have just written these collonies on the top of my head so please excuse me if I have put them in the wrong order!!!!!.

More sounds like today's nuclear arms race ----- LOL!!!!!

Engrossing and intriguing topic indeed!

Nuff said!

Clones..
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Re: Is Sectarian Violence ingrained in Pakistani society?????.

No.

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Sectarian (Shia-Sunni) violence goes all the way back to Khalifa-Rashid #1 vs. #3. And that sectarian fitna resulted in a war between the youngest wife of our Messenger pbuh and His Son-in-law.

That infighting between early Musalmaans is the real source of sectarianism.

Why on earth one would blame Pakistanis for it.

Having said that,

Pakistanis do bear the blame of "IMPORTING" hatred from the Middle East.
we do bear the blame of letting pakistani sectarianists like Molana mododi to become powerful. Similarly we are to blame for allowing Sunni and Shia militant organizations to grow within us.

Wahabis of Gulf/Saudi and Shias of Iran have an axe to grind since the time of Khalifa-Rashid #2.

And sadly us Pakistanis lap up that religious hatred as if it is a mewa from Jannat.

In Pakistani context, we must quit following Saudi Mullahs and Irani Ayatullahs.

They are the mortal (religious) enemies of each other, and we must stop using their diktats that unfortunately results in killing of our Pakistani brothers and sisters.

Pakistani Sunnis and Pakistan Shias must understand that Pakistan is OUR HOME.

God forbid if something terrible happens to Pak, no Saudi-Mullah, or Irani-Ayatullah would ever give us citizenship of their country.

So why are becoming pawns for those who give a hoot to our safety and security.

Sunnis must uphold the protection of our Shia brothers, and create an environment where they feel safe and practice their religion in peace. Where Shia Imam bargahs are shiny, and where Pakistani kids born to Shia parents get all the opportunities to grow and prosper.

If we the Sunnis do not take care of our Shia brothers and sisters, Allah will surely curse us and we will suffer the azab like no other azab before us.

Some examples are out there already. Look at hutus and tutsis. They were brothers and sisters in Rawanda. But they forgot, and look what happened to that gad-awful country.

There are many many such examples from the primitive tribal societies from Africa and the middle East.

We must behave like civilized people towards the minorities in Pak, instead of behaving like tribal chimps.

May the Shias and other minorities remain safe.

Ameen.

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Very well said Indeed but the question is how?????.
Do we need to change the outlook of the whole society if we do then how?????.

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First and foremost a flow chart of a model society would be essential to produce ideal citizens and their distinguished demeanor ----- how would you achieve all this ----- by setting up conformity of individual's life and conduct to moral and ethical principals, then ----- you would establish a compelling judicial system that urges equal, stringent but fair and just laws and parameters for every one, regardless of their gender, religion, ethnicity and social status or background.

After you are successfully able to establish these attributes within the society that restrict what is possible and accepted, you further develop prevailing tendency of going otherwise as a social taboo for every one, as a result the society becomes an example of moral excellence.

All of the aforementioned factors play a vital roll by changing mental or emotional outlook of the people and, the product naturally shows up in the form of model citizens or individuals.

Nuff said!

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Re: Is Sectarian Violence ingrained in Pakistani society?????.

even though both shia and sunni claim to be muslims, they don't see each other that way. this is not too different from the difference between a cristian and muslim - they have fundamental difference in their faith and belief.

Problem is not these differences in faith. It is intolerance to let the other group be and the resorting to violence in hatred borne of that intolerance.

there is no solution to this. only a series of great statesmen leaders and time can heal such things - there are no statesmen-leaders in the muslim world

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Re: Is Sectarian Violence ingrained in Pakistani society?????.

ive never come across any sunni/shia who thinks the other is a non muslim

look how popular ahmedinejad is in pakistan

What is the punishment
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Neither have I!

Gumshuda Gappyies
Gumshuda Gappyies
Gumshuda Gappyies
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Re: Is Sectarian Violence ingrained in Pakistani society?????.

I meant to say, ..."they don't see each other as the same". Yes, they don't call each other non-muslims. But due to the differences in their respective faith and belief they attack each other violently.

And my point is it doesn't matter that they are both 'muslims' - what matters is they practice violence and it might as well be separate religions.

Finally, there doesn't also seem to be any hope for these factions to settle their difference. They have been and will continue to kill each other unless a series of statesmen-leaders emerge,

PS: Pakistanis like Ahmedinejad because and only because he stood up to Bush when every Pakistani leader and general were competing to be dubya's poodle

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I don't think leaders can do anything ----- unless we change the emotional outlook of individuals at a very early age or critical period of their lives ----- so to speak ----- by sowing a seed of respect for others and their religious beliefs!.

Nuff said!

Trump Doesn't Want More People From "Sh*thole" Countries Coming In
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Re: Is Sectarian Violence ingrained in Pakistani society?????.

pakistanis and muslims in general are too stupid to understand how they are being played. they're too stupid. either busy terrorizing people around the world in the name of jihad (just as per the mafia's teachings of their own faith to them) or busy dancing on bollysh!t and drinking. the remaining remain busy struggling to survive. they have no time for anything else.

unless they grow some sane brain, take charge and decide to change/improve their condition, rid their greed & corrupt ways, this would all remain the same.

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Thank you.

Let's start with ourselves at individual level. We can certainly stop putting our uber-religion base politics ahead of our country and fellow Paks.

That means, Sunni individuals should start saying good bye to the imported Islamism and filthy sectarianism from modern day Saudi.

That means, Shia individuals should say good bye to the Islamism and filthy sectarianism from modern day Iran.

Iran and Sudi with all their oil wealth, are still dead intellectually. So anything coming from these two politically filthy place should be shunned at every cost.

This can only happen if we at individual level start taking pride in Pak, and Pak's local culture.

Fitna-e-Qadriya
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It is absolutely true especially in the context of heed to violence by sectarian movements within Pakistan ----- however, without exception, there need to be clear and defining parameters at least between some ISMS, such as Islamism and terrorism, patriotism and nationalism, Judaism and Zionism and so on and so forth.

As once said by Orwell, “nationalism is the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or an idea, and; placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests.” Surely ----- in the realm of nationalism there lies a hierarchy of elements, the higher level of course ----- the politicians ----- who not only practice nationalism religiously in guise of patriotism, but, also socially and emotionally promote and enforce it, by successfully sowing paranoia, fear and insecurity among general population, that in reality leads public to believe that there is always a monster out there to hurt them a classic instance would be a quote by Henry Kissinger in early 70s “Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control people.” pretty sick isn't it? ----- I don't believe there is any need to quote any one here for lower level example of nationalism and even xenophobia in guise of patriotism or super-patriotism ----- so to speak ----- it is readily available for a review even in this forum ----- mind boggling indeed.

Looking at the history of the nationalism in a chronological order ----- it was all started in the 18th century by Europeans with of course Britain as a forerunner, a wave of romantic nationalism swept trough Europe transforming the countries of the continent ----- by early 19th century the days for multinational empires were numbered.

After astronomical success of nationalism, it was quickly seeded in to Arabian peninsula, central Asia and beyond to achieve a preplanned political agenda of a categorical control of natural resources.
Consider this ----- in context with present day many people seem to confuse nationalism with patriotism ----- let's make an analogy between nationalism and patriotism by looking at another quote by Orwell “devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people.” Precisely, it makes perfect sense as long as it is innocent and harmless!!!!.

Nuff said!

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That was the vision of Qaid-e- Azam. But it was made sure by some 'unknown forces' to make everything he said, did, dreamt for the Pakistani nation and wanted vanish & Pakistanis were made to adopt to the customs & attitudes of the hindus of india towards muslims. That was the entire reason for demanding a seperate land - To provide a safe land for the muslims of india to live freely safe from the terror of the indian hindus & live their lives according to Islam where all the minorities live in peace with each other & are able to practice their respective faith. But unfortunately, after the partitions Pakistanis were made to believe that they obtained the land to carry out terror against minorities. Infact, the shias who are very much muslims just like sunnis were not even considered muslims by some. So the beliefs had started to get messed up long long time ago. It was made sure that newer generations of Pakistanis forget about Qaid e Azam, his sayings and his vision.

Random
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it is definitely true in terms of pakistan's history. please read history. the vultures from the neighbourhood dont take long to jump in search of prey. so yes, pakistanis need to beware every single waking / sleeping moment. remember 1965 when indian tanks entered pakistani territory during the middle of the night when pakistani qaum was sleeping unaware of evil intention of the neighbour fulfilling their dream of merging pakistan back together with them? and when the common people living close to the borders woke up and lied in front of them with bombs tied up around their bodies in order to stop those tanks from going further inside the territory? i am not sure if you even know it. this is not from a fiction story book but something pakistanis have already experienced from its' 'neighbours'. how can you expect people of living in a country with such threats from neighbour do not live like the monster can land any time to hurt them?

You're quoting a satanist. If you wish to know of any 'nobel' examples of patriotism, why quote or believe in a satanist belief?

Non-Muslim first name
Non-Muslim first name
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Any Ism can be OK if it is based on tolerance for religious, ethnic etc. minorities, harmony among people AND peaceful citizenship of the world.

All the ISMS can turn out to be a nightmare if they lose tolerance and peacefulness.

Timepass - Eternity
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Re: Is Sectarian Violence ingrained in Pakistani society?????.

it"s sad and ironic you guys go chasing after esoteric solutions to rather simple issues. give up terrorism under whatever name and you"ll have A nation, a civilization and membership amongst the rest of the world.

and how do you do that? like anyother vice, it starts with admission. admit hateful propaganda (against sections within, against India, Israel, usa what not). Teach kids, not brainwash them.

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And this is exactly what is wrong with today's world ----- precisely the point I was trying to make in my above post ---- MODERATION IS THE VIRTUE -----

The Cafe HAAZRI thread