And whose opinion is this? Would you like to give some refs?
Lots of Muslims hold this opinion, surely this isn't the first time you've heard that. I'm sure many non-Muslims who have taken the time to study Islam (such as myself) also hold that opinion.
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Qur'an is a book of Allah and Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is our teacher.....he taught us this book through his sayings and actions.
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That doesn't answer the question "when were all these other things that Muhammed followed (that aren't in the Quran) revealed to him as God's wishes"?
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Yes, Qur'an is the absolute, unchanged word of God.
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Yes, as I stated that is the Musilm belief.
Lots of Muslims hold this opinion, surely this isn't the first time you've heard that. I'm sure many non-Muslims who have taken the time to study Islam (such as myself) also hold that opinion.
Well, I don't know any muslim who hold this opinion....So please provide a reference!
And about you........I don't care what opinion you hold as I'm gonna learn about islam from non believers.
That doesn't answer the question "when were all these other things that Muhammed followed (that aren't in the Quran) revealed to him as God's wishes"?
Well, I don't know any muslim who hold this opinion....So please provide a reference!
And about you........I don't care what opinion you hold as I'm gonna learn about islam from non believers.
If you aren't gonna learn anything from me, look it up yourself. There are even Muslim posters on this forum who hold that belief.
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what other things? Please give an example.
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EVERYTHING literalists follow as God's laws and rules that are not in the Quran.
Dear Brothers and Sisters
Below is one of my old post on a similar question.
It is a controversial issue. Some people relate certain instances from Islamic history, to prove that it is **NOT ALLOWED **while there are others, who think it to be PERMISSIBLE. I have deliberately not used the word **Hallal **or **Haram **because throughout Holy Quran, there is no clear cut **Hurmat **of Music. Lets look at some Ahadith and instances from Islam on this topic.
There is a Hadith which says, “Amongst Muslims there would be people who would allow adultery, silk, wine and musical instruments”.
This Hadith states that there would be people who would allow this, but it does not tell that Music is **Hallal **or Haram. Definitely, adultary, wine, gambling, magic, murder, theft etc have been clearly made Haram, both in Sunnah and in Quran. Moreover all acts of lust, obscenity, vulgarity and immoralty are Haram. In this Hadith, the mention of music is in relation to Wine, Adultary, Silk etc all related to lust, immorality etc. Most probably this Hadith relates to that form of Music which is associated with these vices of immorality and acts of lust.
There is an incident quoted in the books of History that once a Sahabi (probably Hazrat Abu Bakar) (RA) was reciting Holy Quran when he heard the sound of a flute. After hearing this sound, he put his fingers in his ears.
There are some people who on the base of this incident state that **Flute **is Haram. Some go further ahead and say that music of any kind is Haram as it tends to distract you away from Quran, Prayers and Religion. It is probably mis-interpreted. This incident does not prove that Flute or Music is Haram. It simply states that the sound of flute was found to be disturbing by Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA) so he put his fingers in his ears. Similarly, any sound, act or thing can distract your attention from reciting Quran or offering prayers. It can be a book, a game, a relation etc. Just take the example of Internet. Internet itself is neither Haram nor Hallal. But if you start missing your prayers and other religious obligations, than it would be better to stay away from it. Similarly if Music keeps you away from religion, then it is better to keep yourself away from Music, but it does not mean that it is Haram in itself.
There is another incident from the life of Holy Prophet Muhammad (MPBUH) while he was in Makkahh. It is stated that once Holy Prophet (MPBUH) was passing near the Holy Kaaba when he heard the sound of **Drums **coming from Holy Kaaba. Holy Prophet (MPBUH) put his hands on his ears and started running away from Holy Kaaba and asked his companions to tell him when that sound stops coming to their ears. After a distance where the beat of Drum could not be heard, Sahaba (RA) told Holy Prophet (MPBUH) to drop his hands from his ears.
There are certain people who on account of this incident declare **Drums **or Music to be Haram. Whereas if you read the full account of this incident, it would be made clear that at that time, a religious ceremony of **Kufar **and **Mushrikeen **was being held, and they were reciting un-islamic songs (like Bhajans of Hindus) on the beat of Drums, so Holy Prophet (MPBUH) was not running away from the beat of Drums but from listening to those un-islamic religious songs being sung for **Idols **on the beat of Drum in Holy Kaaba.
When Hazrat Muhammad (MPBUH) migrated to Madina, some little girls were reciting qaseedas on the beat of a Daff.
Some people say that only **Daff **is allowed and that too with Qaseedahs by young girls etc. My point is if Daff is allowed with Qaseedahs of Holy Prophet (MPBUH) than why not other instances. Please read the following.
At one of the Eids, some girls were singing near Hazrat Muhammad (MPBUH) on the beat of Daff, when they were stopped by Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA). The Holy Prophet (MPBUH) then told Hazrat Abu Bakar (RA), “O Abu Bakar (RA) do not stop them on this occasion of Eid. Don’t you know that every Ummah before us had an Eid and we have two Eids”.
It is clear that it was the time of rejopicing and Holy Prophet (MPBUH) allowed for the celeberation with Daff. Some say that it is only allowed at Eids and by young girls. This is again is a radical approach as will be clear from the incident below.
The incident of some black slaves **dancing **with **spears **on the beat of **Drums **and **Duff **in the streets of Madina is present in Saheeh books of Hadith. This dance was looked upon by Hazrat Muhammad (MPBUH) and also Hazrat Ayesha Siddiqa (RA) from behind the shoulder of Hazrat Muhammad (MPBUH) through a slit in the door.
It means that men can also dance or rejoice at the the beat of drum. Some say that it is only allowed at Eids and before wars by young girls or men only and not women. Now read this.
There is a Hadith in Sunnan-e-Nisai Sharif in the chapter Ailan-ul-Nikkah. It goes like this, "Hazrat Aamer bin Saeed (RA) states, 'I went to Hazrat Qurzata bin Ka’ab (RA) and Hazrat Abu Masood Ansari (RA) in a wedding ceremony. At that time slave girls were singing some songs. I asked them that they were the Ashab of Prophet (MPBUH) and were from Ahle Badar. What was that music in front of them? After hearing this they both replied, ‘If you want, you can sit with us, if not, you are free to go but we have been allowed by the Holy Prophet (MPBUH) for this at this wedding’, ".
It means that even women can go for singing and music at weddings.
As far as the establishment of a relation between String instruments and **Shaitan **is concerned, it is an inference carved by some and not by majority of scholars.
Now lets look at it from another view and that is from a **Common Sense **point of View.
Allama Shami in the famous book of Fiqah, Rad-ul-Mukhtar says the following in book 5 page 343,
“As such no **musical instrument **is Haram by itself. An instrument is Haram only when it is with the intention of Lust. The intention of lust is determined by the intention (nee’at or nee’ah) of the **player **of an instument of lust and its listener. It means that if the intention of either of them is that of lust, then it would be Haram. Moreover, every musical instument is not an instrument of lust. Don’t you see that playing of these musical instrument as detemined by intention is at times Haram and at others, Halal. And the ruling on Deeds is through Intention (nee’ah) i.e., Inna mal a’amal 0 bin niyyat”.
Having written thus far, it is clear that in all those instances when music was being played in realtion to un-Islamic things, it was avoided by Holy Prophet (MPBUH) and his Sahaba (RA) but when it was played in relation to Islamic Celeberations (Eids), Weddings, Wars etc, it was not avoided.
It is clear that as such **NO **Ayat or Hadith declares the ***Absolute Hurmat ***of Music. That found in certain Ahadith is only ***Relative Hurmat ***and absolute hurmat has been carved out of them.
There are some people who say that the only instrument allowed is Daff. It is not the case. Since at that time, there were limited number of instruments. To say that only Daff is allowed will probably not serve the purpose, because on the same premise, all the modern inventions and developments will have to be thrown away. As there were only horses, camels, swords. etc, so one can argue that even in this 21st century, the Muslim Armies should only do Jehad with horses, camels, swords etc. Is’nt it illogical, that we use the Internet and all the modern gadgetories for the propagation of our own interpretations of Islam, but when it comes to the issues, not liked by us, we shrug our shoulders by saying no to any new invention, even if, it is in the musical industry. Why don’t we get the point. We are mixing two issues of **Halal **and Haram, plus **Music **and Musical Istrument.
In view of the above, most of the Sunni (especially Brelvis), and some Shias, Sufi orders like Chishtia and Qadaria consider Music and Musical Instruments to be permissible. On the other hand most of Sunni Deobandis and Ahle-Hadith do not consider it permissible.
Lets summarise it as follows:
Q1. What is Haram? A 1. It is not the Music but Immorality, Obscenity, Vulgarity, Idolatory and Lust. Yes it is Haram even with Daff.
Q2. What about Daff? Is it the only instrument Halal? A 2. No Sir. It is the music without Immorality, Obcenity, Vulgarity and Lust that is permissible even with instruments other than Daff, even guitars.
Considering the above, it can be inferred that those forms of Music associated with immorality, obcenity, vulgarity, lust etc are not allowed at all, but Music associated with weddings and functions, in the absence of immorality, and without mixing of genders is permissible. Similar is the case with Military Bands and National Songs, Qawalis etc. But concerts, discos, dance clubs, music clubs and musical shows with lusty songs and immoral dances have no place whatsoever in Islam.
Regards for all of you.
Wassalam.
The fact is Prophet Muhammad(SAW) didn't say that he dislikes any colour.
He did. Red. Though not as simple as that. You can't wear PURE red. If it mixes with something else (such as white, for example) then you can wear that — but not pure red.
Considering the above, it can be inferred that those forms of Music associated with immorality, obcenity, vulgarity, lust etc are not allowed at all, but Music associated with weddings and functions, in the absence of immorality, and without mixing of genders is permissible. Similar is the case with Military Bands and National Songs, Qawalis etc. But concerts, discos, dance clubs, music clubs and musical shows with lusty songs and immoral dances have no place whatsoever in Islam.
Regards for all of you.
Wassalam.
What a well thought out, logical and sensible post. Thank you for providing sanity and common sense to this otherwise unelightening thread.
Are you telling me every single thing Muhammed liked was God ordained? He didn't have any personal preferences or habits? He wasn't a robot, he had emotions and choices. And he had habits and prefences way before God ever revealed anything to him at age 40.
For the things not revealed in the Quran, when exactly did God convey everything he wanted Muhammed to do that should become part of what every subsequent human should follow? And if God revealed these things to Muhammed as his orders, why aren't they in the Quran instead of being left up to the inexact science of deciphering hadith?
Peace Seminole
I guess you need to realise Muslims generally are agreed that Muhammad (SAW) never did anything in his life that was unIslamic even before his appointment of prophethood. That is why it was easy for people to believe his mission, because they saw in him (SAW) an excellent example, both in his life before and during his prophethood.
He did. Red. Though not as simple as that. You can't wear PURE red. If it mixes with something else (such as white, for example) then you can wear that — but not pure red.
Peace m249boost
I think your sister Hareem01 meant that Red was not disliked as a colour, but merely disliked as a colour to be worn by men. He allowed it to be worn by women, therefore he could not have disliked it altogether, only in certain applications. I doubt a red rose would have been disliked by Muhammad (SAW).
What a well thought out, logical and sensible post. Thank you for providing sanity and common sense to this otherwise unelightening thread.
Peace Seminole
Permissible is that what is mub'a and above, i.e. neutral, encouragable and mandatory. (mub'a mustahab (mandoob) and fard).
Music may be according to a valid opinion permissible, however, even according to that opinion no doubt will there be that, it can never be seen as something encouraged.
I guess you need to realise Muslims generally are agreed that Muhammad (SAW) never did anything in his life that was unIslamic even before his appointment of prophethood. That is why it was easy for people to believe his mission, because they saw in him (SAW) an excellent example, both in his life before and during his prophethood.
I understand that, it would make sense the final and most revered prophet would be a righteous man even before his appointment. And it would make sense that he would make an excellent example for Islamic values. But that is still a far stretch from believing everything he said, did, liked or disliked is THE Islamic way and all other ways are discouraged. That borders on worship.
I understand that, it would make sense the final and most revered prophet would be a righteous man even before his appointment. And it would make sense that he would make an excellent example for Islamic values. But that is still a far stretch from believing everything he said, did, liked or disliked is THE Islamic way and all other ways are discouraged. That borders on worship.
Peace Seminole
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is the best example for life we have ... it says so in the Qur'an.
In some cases the prophet Muhammad (SAW) liked his companions to voice their opinion and provide their advice. So in that case aren't we tacitly saying that we agree with Muhammad (SAW) about something someone else has done?
So ... what I want to say is .... why is it a far stretch? Saying something is or is not Islamic is not really the question. For the neutral things are permissible and they are not things done by Muhammad (SAW) but even though Islam allows them. However, those things he has asked, advised and commanded us to do are definitely 'deserving of reward' khair, jaza or baraka, because he (SAW) has been involved in those things.
If by Islamic you mean acceptable then the answer is no
If by Islamic you mean earning of reward then the answer is yes.
I have picked up a conversation topic you have been having with Hareem01 ...
Seminole: But still, I have always wondered, if what God revealed to Muhammed was put into the Quran, when were all these other things that Muhammed (and all the subsequent literalists) followed revealed to him as God's wishes?
Hareem01: Qur'an is a book of Allah and Prophet Muhammad(SAW) is our teacher.....he taught us this book through his sayings and actions.
Seminole: That doesn't answer the question "when were all these other things that Muhammed followed (that aren't in the Quran) revealed to him as God's wishes"?
Hareem01: What other things? Please give an example.
Seminole: EVERYTHING literalists follow as God's laws and rules that are not in the Quran.
Perhaps this will answer your question.
Upon the birth of Muhammad (SAW) many signs occured that made Jewish and Christian scholars look out for The Prophet!
When he was young Muhammad (SAW) had a visit by an angel who opened his chest and removed a black spot, this happened later in life also.
When he was being weaned his wet-nurse Respected Halimah Saadiya, noticed a change in their personal affairs and she began to milk in abundance.
A Christian monk named Bahira noticed stones and trees prostrating to the young Muhammad (SAW) tending to the animals of the merchant caravan.
The fact that he Muhammad (SAW) was called Al-Amin (The Trustworthy) was not a title given to him by mistake.
Prophets are chosen by God the appointment of their prophethood is not a consideration for Muslims, though their difference is notable. Isa (Jesus) (AS) for example was eloquent in speech from birth. However, it does not mean that any prophet at any time was not being Guided by the Creator of The Worlds.
...but isn't it true that music is almost unavoidable in modern society...i mean it's part of the media...news on televison even...it's everywhere...therefore it's not just used for entertainment...
I understand that, it would make sense the final and most revered prophet would be a righteous man even before his appointment. And it would make sense that he would make an excellent example for Islamic values. But that is still a far stretch from believing everything he said, did, liked or disliked is THE Islamic way and all other ways are discouraged. That borders on worship.
Well one can certainly think that. But I doubt one would be a muslim thinking that. Why does it bother you if muslims think in that manner?
Dear Brothers and Sisters
Below is one of my old post on a similar question.
It is a controversial issue. Some people relate certain instances from Islamic history, to prove that it is NOT ALLOWED **while there are others, who think it to be **PERMISSIBLE. I have deliberately not used the word **Hallal **or **Haram **because throughout Holy Quran, there is no clear cut **Hurmat **of Music. Lets look at some Ahadith and instances from Islam on this topic.
There is a Hadith which says, "Amongst Muslims there **would be people who would allow **adultery, silk, wine and musical instruments".
This Hadith states that there would be people who would allow this, but it does not tell that Music is Hallal **or **Haram. Definitely, adultary, wine, gambling, magic, murder, theft etc have been clearly made Haram, both in Sunnah and in Quran. Moreover all acts of lust, obscenity, vulgarity and immoralty are Haram. In this Hadith,** the mention of music is in relation to** Wine, Adultary, Silk etc all related to lust, immorality etc. Most probably this Hadith relates to that form of Music which is associated with these vices of immorality and acts of lust.
If the hadith is not stating music is halal or haram bcoz it does not clearly say this then how can you say that the hadith surely mentions music in relation to the other acts. One is an interpretation so is the other.
All of those things could be independant and not related to each other as well.
"Amongst Muslims there **would be people who would allow **adultery, silk, wine and musical instruments"
But we do know that people will "allow" the four mentioned acts, that means none of those things were "allowed" at the time of this hadith being related.
Brother just common sense, Prophet s.a.w have used all 4 things in one sentence, adultry, wine, silk and musical instruments. How can you seperate one from the other 3? Its clear that all 4 are haram and Prophet s.a.w is saying people will make these things permissible near Qiyamat. So if they will make these things permissible, what does that mean? Means they were not considered permissible before.
At that time there were no laws regarding these things, even alcohol was halal. Music was prohibbited later on like alcohol and other things.
They were preparing for a war, as far as I remember.
I think Dr. Sufi has presented an excelent and very elaborate point of view regarding music. Thank you sir.
If the hadith is not stating music is halal or haram bcoz it does not clearly say this then how can you say that the hadith surely mentions music in relation to the other acts. One is an interpretation so is the other.
All of those things could be independant and not related to each other as well.
"Amongst Muslims there **would be people who would allow **adultery, silk, wine and musical instruments"
But we do know that people will "allow" the four mentioned acts, that means none of those things were "allowed" at the time of this hadith being related.
It would be more beneficial if you spare time some time to ponder and analyse. Instead of refuting an argument in hasete.
Now if you read the saying again it mentioned "Silk" . Use of silk is perfectly allowed for Muslim women to wear, it is allowed to grow manufature silk garments for muslim men, it is allowed to sell and buy silk... The only thing forbidden for muslim men to wear it.
Now if you analyse again All these things mentioned, come with wealth and prosperity. And wealthy people induldge in these activities for worldly pleasures. ( you can imagine any mughal ruler, doing all these thing i.e wear silk , drink wine , doing adultry, watching dance of girls in musical nights )
So, mention of silk (which could only be worn by rich men in that time) in this particular hadees tell us that we are ordered to stayaway from evils which come with wealth and luxuries.
So I understand we should keep distance with anything which make you negligiant in your duties in islam. And I have observed that those involved in music industory, can not stay away from the other evils mentioned in that hadees
As iqbal said.
**Main tujh ko bata hoon taqdeer e umman kia hai ** Samsheer o sana awal, Taoos o rubab Akhir
Dear Brother,
Apart from common sense, please also try to find som relativity. If your point is considered to be valid, then how come Silk is Hallal for women and Haram for men?
Yes I admit and agree that Intoxicants, gambling, dedication of stones and divination by arrows was made Haram vide verse 93 of Surah-e-Almaida but where is the Hurmat of Music in Quran. Regarding Ahadith, the evidence can be tilted according to ones liking, but still, there is no Muttafiq Alleh hadith declaring music to be Haram.
Agreed! That is what I was saying i.e., Relativity!