Is Pakistan merely a space?

[burqaposhx]

...... Pakistan doesn't need to define itself according to some "one" person sitting thousands of miles away dictating ....

Forget about 1000s of miles.

We are in the deep $hite thanks to criminals Talibs "IN"Pakistan and that's disease we have to defend against.

So you are with Talibs? or

with Pak Government and people's prosperity, safety and peace?

Show your colors.

[vigoratus]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

show my colors? i won’t ask you the same, we’re all aware of yours

i support Pakistan govt., the armed forces of Pakistan and its brave soldiers. i hold my opinions as a pakistani to oppose where i see wrong, to raise my voice and concerns where i see the politicians erring. and i don’t give two hoots about WSJ or Kissinger and other clowns, and how they wish to see Pakistan or hope to offer a definition that Pakistan should follow.

Pakistan doesn’t need that american gibber jabber from relics of the past looking to have a part in the present and future.

[wine]

@GoldenAsif

But we make seekh kebab and Karahi Chicken better than any country in the world :snooty:

Just go to an average desi restaurant in UK, the way some of them fool locals by showing ‘different’ dishes

• Balti Chicken
• Karahi Chicken
• Chicken handi

To me they all mean the same

WTH!!

@GoldenAsif

I know I am saying the obvious but ethnicity and ethnic politics are one of the main reasons why our nation has not progressed as much as it should have. Then there are other factors like decades of misrule and economic mis-management by those in power, neglect of education etc. We have not really made great strides towards improving the literacy rate which is still pathetic.

And I agree that we should not be so India-centric

Maybe this helps…

Pakistan’s Identity Crisis
Source: Pakistan’s Identity Crisis

Identity may be defined as a distinctive characteristic of an individual or a particular group of individuals. For one’s survival in this world it is very crucial to maintain his identity. If we expand the criterion of ‘identity’ to national level it is of utmost importance because it is nation’s identity which distinguishes its people from the rest of the world. The importance of national Identity can be better analyzed by the fact that it is the base of all the policies, i.e. domestic and foreign policy and hence the social. economic cultural and ethical development of any country partly depends upon its national identity. In other words actions of a nation are determined by its identity. As far as Pakistan’s identity is concerned, it may be divided into three phases, i.e. pre-partition, post partition and present day. Pre-partition era dates from the Muhammad Bin Qasim’s invasion and conquest of Sind. Muslim identity bore, grew and passed through different stages during this era. The second phase of Pakistan’s identity started with the establishment of Pakistan and the third phase is present day scenario. This ‘identity’ faced variety of crisis in each phase.

The term ‘identity crisis’ is used to denote a particular situation where by an individual, group of individuals or a nation faces conflicts regarding its identity. These conflicts occur when one’s ideological basis and prevailing circumstances contradict in such a way that the prevailing circumstances dominate the ideological basis. With reference to Pakistan the history of ‘identity crisis’ have its roots in the late Mughal dynasty. The comfort-loving attitude of the rulers, bloodsheds for the throne, abandoned faith, mismanagement of domestic economic and political matters, absence of updated foreign developments and other moral, ethical and social weaknesses were the major forces which contributed in the identity crisis of the Muslims of South Asia. In pre partition era where by Muslims of south Asia have lost their regime and British rule tighten the span of their social , cultural and political life. Actually they lost their rule just because of the ‘lost identity’. After a half century of submissive life they began to find the ‘lost identity’ and they succeeded. The two nation theory brought back the essence of Muslim identity, with the help of vigorous leadership of Sir Syed Ahmed khan philosophical guidance of Iqbal, vivid spirit of Quaid and untired efforts of Muslim leaders, women and students. At the end they found their lost identity in the form of Pakistan. This identity was regained after almost two centuries of ignominious identity crisis.

The second phase of identity crisis began very after the inception of Pakistan. The Shia/Sunni crisis at the time of partition was the first of all. But luckily at that time, the crisis was pragmatically resolved by Quaid-e-Azam, so it was buried in a hatchet at that time but later on it burst up from different grounds.
The second case of identity crisis in the chronology is the crisis of East and West Pakistan. At the time of inception, Pakistan inherited East and West Pakistan with one and four provinces respectively. Population of East Pakistan alone was more than that of the total population of the four provinces of West Pakistan. The seeds of identity crisis were sown with the ‘language controversy’, where by Urdu was declared as the national language of Pakistan while Urdu was the influencing language only in West Pakistan. This language controversy and some other strategies which lead to the deprived feelings among the natives of East Pakistan and the ultimate consequence was an identity crisis in the form of separation of East Pakistan in 1971.
Not only the separation of East Pakistan but, a variety of identity crisis cases stood in the post partition era. The list contains delayed constitutional development, unstable political conditions (due to personal likes and dislikes and lust of power), Social injustice and negative image of Pakistan on international screen. Constitution is the base of any new born state but in case of Pakistan this base couldn’t be established even after about a decade of the inception of Pakistan. So when there was no base for people, the process of identity development started very late. Latterly the termination of 1956’s and 1962’s constitutions fulfilled the remaining part of delayed identity development. Secondly the political system of a nation is the index of its identity. Unluckily, in this regard we have not been so fortunate. Almost all the politicians have out shown the ability of exquisite attainment of their personal or group benefits. This created uncertain circumstances for the nation to achieve the identity goal. In this situation the youth couldn’t get the proper guideline for the active participation I the national affairs. Another aspects was lack of opportunities for them to improve the national morale and to set positive trends, which further lead towards another channel of identity crisis.

Part played by social injustice in the development of identity crisis is not negligible. This social injustice also arose at the very threshold of our independence. At the time of partition millions of Muslims migrated, leaving their valuables and properties. This gave the opportunity to some people to attain the acquisition of these massive properties. Such people latterly, enslaved some others in order to become ‘jagirdars’, and hence appeared the identity crisis in the form of ‘feudalism’, making people to forget the ideological agenda under which Pakistan was emerged.

All these factors further participated in corruption, national disharmony, rigid attitudes, misconceptions about the religion (partly the role played by ‘mullas’), blind practices on
unnecessary customs and a list of moral dilemmas. The identity crisis after the partition threw Pakistan in an ignominious status both at domestic and at international arena. Domestically we couldn’t achieve the social status which we’ve dreamt during the Pakistan movement. Economically we stood at the back end of the global economic stage. And above all we were entitled as a ‘terrorist state’ due to some mismanaged and scattered groups. Even some of them really didn’t have the basic knowledge of their ideological agenda.

In present day Pakistan, the situation is more hazardous than that of one discussed in the previous phase. Today’s identity crisis is ‘giant’ in nature aiming to nip our ideology form the bud. Now with changing global environment and with the changing role of Pakistan at international level, the nature of identity crisis has become more complex. The present day crisis may be classified as political, social religious and economic identity crisis.
The social and religious crisis work in collaboration. On the religious part, the extremist group has developed misconceptions about the religion. On the other hand the society is facing the ‘cultural war’ through different media. In such a situation the nation, preferably the youth has contradictions with religious implications which is making them unaware of their ideological basis. In the second step the attractive evil (the weapon of cultural war) is becoming dominant. So the nation’s ideological basis is being deployed by the prevailing circumstances, creating identity crisis. In this case we can’t blame the young mind (as he’s not getting the proper guideline and he has not been trained in such a way that he can find the roots the purpose of his existence, secondly the so called knowledge of religion he gets is not authentic).
The second type of present day identity crisis in Pakistan is political in nature. In fact our political system has always been ruled by reigns in hands of few influencing groups. No such political platforms were built for the coming generations, to ensure their participation in national or international affairs. It is very necessary to train the youth for the participation in national affairs because they are the people who have to run the country in the future. Unluckily our youth didn’t get any such training at any stage of our 59 years history. The ultimate result was that, the administrators belonged to a specific group, making others so annoyed that others even don’t care to have a look at the mismanagement. This imbalance in the political infrastructure restricted the educated youth to participate in the national policies and ultimately the process of policy making enjoyed the influence of un-educated and narrow minded policy makers, who couldn’t devise the identity goals of the nation till yet.

At international political arena we are still facing the vicious circle of ‘terrorism’. Even our government ensured Pakistan’s contribution in the ‘war against terrorism’, but being an Islamic state we become the suspect of any international terrorist act. Here the policy of state is ambiguous, which aims to satisfy the western world but the integration of Muslim world is not to be seen any where. In my opinion we don’t know that where we are standing right now, where we have to go and where we are going?

On the part of economy, no doubt our economy grew with in last half decade but only at macro level. The poor is still standing on the place where he was a decade ago. Increasing
Unemployment, inflation, and poverty etc are not only contributing in social imbalances but because of these factors, a common man is not able to find the basis of his identity.

The identity of a nation is its image, and our image today is ‘a tree whose roots have been cut’. This situation is actually showing our lost identity. We have become much concerned about our outer look but we have forgotten the basis on which we have to develop our inner self. If this process keeps on going with the same velocity, the time is not far when the existence of our identity will vanish.

It is very crucial to have a breach of the peace against identity crisis. In this regard the most important step is identity education. The identity education should be provided at educational institutions as well as in temporarily organized seminars (seminars should be accessible for general public). Identity education will not work till we present a difference between different cultures. Media censorship should also be there in order to lessen the possible damages of cultural war. Media should also spread the knowledge of values among the common men. And last but not least we all should play our part to improve our religious image at international level. In this connection we can spread the true essence of our religion which is peace.

[Slickstar]

Anyone that uses an ad-hominem argument against another poster should be banned for a week.

[Croquet]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

yes pakistan is a country united by hating india and we have an indian posting this drivel in pakistani affairs of a pakistani forum ,could this get anymore redundant? does anyone think why an indian comes to inform us that we are the most flana flana country? probably out of the goodness of his heart and genuine care for pakistan. gits.

[teggy]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

[note]Irrelevant posts removed. Please remain on topic.[/note]

[CM]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

The Gujarat massacres proved the essence of the two nation theory is still valid today as it was 60 years ago. Anybody dumb enough to think otherwise, should stop breathing.

As for Pakistan identity. That is for Pakistanis to decide. Not for some American to do so. The Pakistani people are pretty certain on what their views are. They aren't conflicted. Ask anybody on the street in Karachi or Lahore. Hell ask them in Quetta. They know what they want. They are pissed off, upset or what not. But they know what their identity is.

Frankly its only the yahoos who don't have their own identity that wonder...hey what identities do Pakistanis have?

[test01]

But they know what their identity is.

What is this identity? Surely if everyone knows then you know too.

[CM]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

Pakistan any pakistani on the street. You can get your direct answer from there. As for me, I am a conservative muslim who is a national of the Pakistani state. My identity is linked with the struggles of those who fought so that I wouldn't have to suffer the injustices like the Gujarat Massacres and the like.

My identity is also that of a national of a country that has strived in the most horrible of circumstances to enable the dream of a muslim nation to survive. We Pakistanis are the living embodiment that Islam is cause enough to create a nation.

[test01]

@CM

The Gujarat massacres proved the essence of the two nation theory is still valid today as it was 60 years ago. Anybody dumb enough to think otherwise, should stop breathing.

…and what does the massacre of Ahmadis in 1953 and 1974 prove?

Justice Munir Enquiry Report on Anti-Ahmadiyya riots of 1953 (Urdu)
http://www.thepersecution.org/dl/MunirReport.pdf

Justice Munir Enquiry Report on Anti-Ahmadiyya riots of 1953 (English)
http://www.thepersecution.org/dl/report_1953.pdf

History of persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community - 1971-80

what does the massacre of shias prove?

and what about continued massacre of different brands of sunnis and conflict between state and Taliban means? Seems to me there are plenty of nations in Pakistan and no Pakistani nation at all.

Let’s not kid ourself.

[CM]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

And what does that have to do with identity?

[Captain_FT]

@saregamapa

Is Pakistan merely a space? It is politically weak, ethnically riven, and a master of plausible deniability – an art it has practiced towards India.

---

About Iran, Henry Kissinger once asked whether the Islamic Republic was a country or a cause. About Pakistan, the question is whether it’s a country or merely a space.

Mr. Kissinger’s point was that if Iran were a country like France or India, its bid to acquire nuclear weapons wouldn’t pose an apocalyptic threat: It would merely be seeking the bomb in pursuit of rational, and limited, national interests, like prestige and self-defense. But if Iran is a cause – the cause being world-wide radical Islamic revolution – then there’s no telling where its ambitions end.

The world has a tough time dealing with cause countries, no matter if the causes are bad (Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia), good (the U.S.), or somewhere in between (colonial Britain and France). Even more difficult is knowing what to do about countries that are really just spaces, wholly or partly ungoverned.
Today, Somalia is a space not even pretending to be a country. The result is destitution, piracy and a sanctuary for Islamic jihadists, but little by way of ideas for how to change things. Historically Afghanistan has always been a space, defined mostly by its power to repel: The Obama administration would be smart to take this into account by keeping its expectations for nation-building low. Whether post-invasion Iraq is a country or a space remains a question, though it seems to be leaning in the former direction.
As for Pakistan, we’re about to find out.

Global View: Pakistan’s Existential Challenge - WSJ.com

The world took note last month when a Taliban advance brought it to within 60 miles of Islamabad. But that offensive was less intrinsically distressing than the seeming nonchalance with which Pakistan’s rulers, current and former, surrendered sovereignty to Islamic extremists, first in the tribal hinterlands and then in the Swat Valley.

What kind of state simply accepts that its judicial and political writ doesn’t actually run to its internationally recognized boundaries? Three cases are typical.

What kind of state simply accepts that its judicial and political writ doesn’t actually run to its internationally recognized boundaries? Three cases are typical.

One is a weak state that lacks the capacity to enforce its law and ensure domestic tranquility – think of Congo. Another is an ethnic patchwork state that knows well enough not to bend restive or potentially restive minorities to its will – that would be present-day Lebanon. A third is a canny state that seeks to advance strategic aims by feigning powerlessness while deliberately ceding control to proxies – the Palestinian Authority under Yasser Arafat.
Pakistan’s odd distinction is that it fits all three descriptions at once. It is politically weak, ethnically riven, and a master of plausible deniability – an art it has practiced not only toward India, Afghanistan and the U.S. with its support for various “freedom fighting” groups but also, in the matter of the CIA drone attacks, toward its own people.

The roots of Pakistan’s problems go to its nature as a state. What is Pakistan? Even now, nearly 62 years after its founding, the best answer is “not India”: As with the Palestinians, Pakistani identity is defined negatively. What else is Pakistan? As with Iran, it is an Islamic Republic: Punjabis, Pashtuns, Kashmiris, Balochis, Sindhis and so on are only really knitted together in their state as Muslims.

No wonder the Pakistani army has been so reluctant to redeploy the bulk of its forces to the western front: To do so betrays Pakistan’s entire reason for being. Tellingly, the army only went on the offensive this month after the Taliban took aim at an army convoy. Odds are roughly even that another “truce” will be agreed by the government just as soon as the Taliban draws appropriate conclusions and reserves its violence for clean-shaven men, independent-minded females and other enemies of God.
Of course the “Islamic” state that Pakistani founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah foresaw wasn’t quite what the Taliban have in mind. “You will find,” he said in 1947, “that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because this is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.”

That vision still appeals to a majority of Pakistanis, who have repeatedly defeated radical religious parties at the polls. But rejecting clerical politics is not quite the same thing as accepting secular ideals. It’s also hard to sustain republican hopes when the practical results – in the persons of former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif and current President Asif Ali Zardari – have been so consistently dismaying.

We live in an age dominated by immodest ideas of personal, national or ideological destiny, to which Pakistan has not been immune. It might consider more modest aims, like simple countryhood. And since the threat it now faces is existential, let’s put the point existentially: The alternative to that kind of being is nothingness.

o paaaa! choooth kat boliya ker.

so sad mods! jb india ki baari ayi to thread locked aur jb pakistan pe baat ayi tu apna aap dikha diya.

very shameful indeed on the part of mods.

[Faris_Udeen]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

[QUOTE]

On a serious note, which country in this world has the highest number of insurgencies and freedom movements?

[/QUOTE]

Actually as a matter of fact it's niether Pakistan or India. Many other countires have a far greater rate of insurgencies. Iraq and Afghanistan come across as easilly recognisable.

Pakistan and India are not alone you know, Sudan, Somalia, Burma, Philipnes, Shri Lanka, Kenya, Algeria........and many others i cannot remember to mention also have simmilar problems.

So forget picking on one another and sort yourselves out. I see China, Korea, Japan and even the state of Mongolia as far better examples of diversity and unity. Japan got Nuked but it still stood up for itself in the world and today it's a mega cool state, they were more diverse even than Pakistan and India becuase for 3000 years samurais killed each other, no other country was ever involved Japanese killied Japanese and somehow they managed to come together so whats Pakistan and Indias excuse!

China suffered the worst opression of its people from many countries but today noboy dares mess with them.

Can we people just focuss on being a little more confident in ourselves at a grass roots level. I believe given half a chance Pakistan and India will eventually pull through we just need to educate our youths and promote our countrys even if our homelands suck, we should not let anybody screw us over it.

At the end of the day all we can do is work together within our people and work for a better country. We have only need of a few good people and the country can still pull through.

All this will happen soon i believe it!

[ehsan]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

I am locking this thread as it is derailed and will let the mods review and decide what to do about it. Till than chill.

[teggy]

Re: Is Pakistan merely a space?

Thread now open. Please stay on topic and avoid derailing.

[aasimtom]

Look closely on this map Guys, Believe me we are sleeping and they are taking away our country. When are we going to realize and unite, when? This is turning out to be the same thing happened in 1971.

EDIT: Pic removed. Please don't flood threads with same pic, don't divert all threads towards one same direction.