queer, i meant the indian army. If u dont believe me, read any Human Rights Report on what went on in Kasmir. (and is still going on)
i'm sure the army is ruthless many a time. now if only external forces hint hint would stop doing their thing to make sure the indian army stays and people get hurt, would it all end happily. but then hey, that would hurt their interests, and hence they keep at it - who cares about kashmiris..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lussi: *
queer, i meant the indian army. If u dont believe me, read any Human Rights Report on what went on in Kasmir. (and is still going on)
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Use the button on your computer's keyboard called "PgDn" to read what the same reports say about Pakistani jihadis' role.
Besides, your own army is doing 100 times worse in Waziristan today. Do you want to give them freedom?
States have always used force on citizens. The solution to that isn't border change.
- The Hijacking and the Parliament issue were two things, they were horrible and I wish they hadnt happend but those were two incidents, and not something thats happens on a regular basis. The Gujrat incident followed the massacre of over 2000 Muslims in Gujrat. While even I believe there were Pakistani groups involved, you cant deny that their may even have been Indian Muslim involved aswell. And the blame for that should lie at the feet of India aswell. Can you honestly blame anyone after what happend in Gujrat? I refuse to belive that Indian Muslims have all simply turned the other cheek after Gujrat. I mean if thats the case then they must be saints each and every one of them. Apparently Gandhi had a much bigger impact on Muslim then he thought.. Anyways, Yes these incidents are sad and upseting, but again, we have good reason to not like you people either. But we dont dwell on such things. By the way, you have also been victims of other attacks aswell, sikhs killed one PM, and Tamils killed the other one. Yet I dont see you hateing them asmuch, perhaps the massacre of a few thousand Pakistanis might quench your thrist…
- I dont know how 'official" it is, but you and I know the reality. If the people are allowed to decide and they choose independance, there is little Pakistan can do. While I know Pakistan doesnt want to lose Kashmir, they cant deny them their rights either.
- I dont know who is killing Kashmiris that dont tow the Pak line, but then the fact is that most no longer tow the Pak line, and even fewer tow India’s. Majority of the groups want independance from what I understand. As for N Areas, the circumstances of that area are different from Jammu and Kashmir, but im sure they will come up in discussion between the leaders and they will be discussed. As for Mangla damn, we are a desert country, we need water, our population is increasing, we rely heavily on irrigation. Dams are our lifeline. We are as guilty as any other country in the wrld that needs water for its survival. India itself has built large dams which have provided very little advantage for the local population. There are groups in India still fighting to be compensated, but since they are so poor they have no voice decpite India vaunted Democracy.
- If thats what you call negotiations, then im sorry but we have nothing to talk about.
- Pakistan has wanted to have a referandum or something of that sort as per the UN’s suggestion. The UN resolution was never binding but it was agreed in principle by both sides. India made a promise that it would hold the referandum, Nehru even said that eventually it will depend on the Kashmiris themselves, even Gandhi suggested this.
But Pakistan is willing to shift on this and allow for other options. This is a big shift from stated policy. Pakistan I belive is ready to bend over backwards assuming India is willing to do the same. I think India will, save for certain hardliners in the way. - Pakistan has fought wars, sacraficed men and material for the Kashmiri cause. The Status quo is not going to be acceptable. India making the LOC the border will not resolve anything. Your contitution is flawed in adding that statement, it flies in the face of the will of millions of people, the principles of your own founding father, and the principles of Democracy theselves. It may be enshrined, but you will have to find a way to deshrine it, otherwise you can look foward to 50 more years of misery. And I for one dont want to see that happening, I would much rather call you friend then enemy.
- Concessions such as these benefit the people of Kashmir and they should be seen in that light, but they are only the begining, concrete steps towards a just resultion that takes into account the wishes all three groups must follow.
- Kashmir is a land issue, I mean the Indus river, which happens to be our life line flows from that state. Kashmir has immense strategic and monitary value. Lets not fool ourselves in thinking that its doenst have to do with land. But its also a land that has a millions of people inhabiting it, and while land is one major part of the problem, the human factor is also a large factor in this. What ever happens it is ultimately they who will be the final arbitrators of the fate of their state.
I know India isnt willing to give up land, neither of the sides are, but there are other options that can be explored, neither side has to lose land. I made a suggestion before which you conveniently ignored that involved land sharing.. Its one option but there are others that can be explored. By not even exploring such options and constantly trying to convince us that the status quo is the only way, India is being obstinant. - Im hoping India is willing to give up land, but im not holding my breath, I am hoping for a deal that can be seen as fair and just taking into account the asspirations of the Kashmiri people and both Pakistan and India.
Most people in Pakistan dont need to be told that India isnt willing to give up land in talks, infact many dont even believe talks are going to lead to any kind of resolution. I dont have much hope for talk either considering the way India is approaching them.
War has never been an option and we all know that. Despite India’s preconceived notions on Pakistanis, we are not war mongering fanatics who see peace only through war, you may be surprised to discover this.
Our people have long ago come to terms with India and Indians.
Its Indians and their leaders who have to be brave. Its you people who have to understand the reality and realize that not everyone see’s history thru India’s prism. Hostorical reality is not yours alone to define. We are not looking to gain land we are looking for a just resolution. In the end, can India with its 1 billion population, growing economy, and its precieved regional and global eminence be able to find the maturity to compramise for the betterment of Millions? I sure hope so…
PP,
Kindly start a thread on the Kashmir forum with your ideas on Kahmir resolution. I'll be glad to discuss.
Sure.. But I have stated my position.. If you want to discuss anything further then please do open a forum and I will meet you there... I think I will start something about what I think is a fair solution... C u there..
Best Regards..:)
Gamma dilation,
As I said before depends on what criteria you use judge by.
It seems the argument from capitalism, is the criteria being used here so I'll take a few points from the arguments:
GDP - GDP goes up if there is a national disaster, such as hurricane, earthquake, it is why women are encouraged to work not because of equal rights only that the work of the housewife has no bearing on GDP. Therefore GDP is not valid to use as criteria.
Instead of going into the rest of the points let's explore the question, Is the life of the average Pakistani better with all the points you mentioned?
Have wages increased? More jobs? Better access to education, less crime? Basic foodstuffs cheaper? Better rights for minorities and women?
We are human beings not corporations. Arguing from the trickle down effect is just plainly refusing to solve human problems. If the fat cats get fatter it doesn't mean I should take my 100 rupees a day job because I couldn't afford a good education, buy a loaf of bread for 10 rupees, 16 rupees for a kilo of milk, lets not forget vegetables, fruit, dalda, and then if I'm lucky telephone and electricity bill on top of that childrens school fees, clothes , travelling etc and be happy!!!
The average pakistani couldn't care less about whether the Karachi stock exchange went up or down it doesn't even affect their life. Once bills go up they don't go down.
If it wasn't for us in Europe, US, sending money to our families in Pakistan our families wouldn't be able to cope because the system cannot and will not help them.
Only Islam can solve human problems because Islam is from the Creator of human beings who knows us better than we know ourselves. Only when the Islamic ruling system the khilafah is implemented can human problems be solved comprehensively regardless of whether you are a muslim or not.
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*Originally posted by Talwar: *
Use the button on your computer's keyboard called "PgDn" to read what the same reports say about Pakistani jihadis' role.
Besides, your own army is doing 100 times worse in Waziristan today. Do you want to give them freedom?
States have always used force on citizens. The solution to that isn't border change.
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Yaar, Indias actions in Kashmir are in no way comparable to Pakistans actions in Waziristan.
Reason.
1. Indias actions are sanctioned only by India, while Pakistans fight is understood as legitimate fight in the war against terrorism.
2. Waziristan is part of the law less tribal belt where illicit drug, weapons,
and kinds of smuggling find a home. Its the hideout for everyone from Osama to the lowliest terrorsit.
3. Pakistan had to go under pressure from America and the rest of Americas allies. We had no choice, but you should remember that we never went into the tribal areas since Pakistan was founded.
Civilian casualties are sad part of the mission. But they arent intended and shouldnt be seen as a targeted attack against civilians. With accusations of rape and kidnapping and custodial murder, do you really expect us to belive Indian troops see Kashmir as anything more then war as much against civilians as amongs militants?
And states havent always used force against their people... Take the example of Canada and Quebec... The Candians actually gave them a vote.
I think Pakistan would rather not use force in this case to, but that seems to be the only way at this point. India cant claim the same thing...
It had 50 years to prevent what is happening in Kashmir.. They could have nipped the problem in the bud, and the uprising would never have started...