OldLahori bhai, I quite accept the concept of faith. I believe in God myself.
The point of view in Ibrahim's posts seems to be that other Religions are corrupted versions of Islamic beliefs.
As you know, to disprove a theory all you have to do is show one example where it doesn't apply!!!
So, I picked up this Adam issue only as an example.
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
Hindus never seize to amaze me, they can spin anything into nothing and still try to smile.
Now read and find a place to hide your shame and ignorance!
** Vyasa :**
Sanskrit: ** “Arranger,” or “Compiler”** ), also called KRSNA DVAIPAYANA, or ** VEDAVYASA (fl. 1500 BC?)** , legendary Indian sage who is traditionally credited with composing or compiling the Mahabharata, a collection of legendary and didactic poetry worked around a central heroic narrative.
According to legend, Vyasa was the son of the ascetic Parashara and the Dasa princess Satyavati and ** grew up in forests living with hermits who taught him the Vedas. ** Thereafter he lived in the forests near the banks of the river Sarasvati, ** becoming a teacher and a priest,** fathering a son and disciple, Shuka, and gathering a large group of disciples.
Late in life, living in caves in the Himalayas, ** he is said to have divided the Vedas, composed Puranas, and, in a period of two and one-half years, composed his great poetic work, the Mahabharata, supposedly dictating it to his scribe, Ganesha, the elephant god. **
Copyright 1994-1998 Encyclopaedia Britannica
Ibrahim says : Now I hope you have made reservations for yourself in the asylum, in case you haven’t don’t worry, your hindu scholars too seem to have the same problems and they ended up roaming the streets.! So there is plenty of room .
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Ibrahim says : whilst you are still alive ask riviks he was quick to post who was ** Brahman (in this very thread)** but failed to understand how and where , the rest of the idols came from. That is indeed pitiful, but hindus have to be pitied, they have no one to guide them , so they roam as they desire.
Ibrahim says: very silly statement since just earlier you stated “The Vedas are a compendium of sayings by Rishis or sages”. Find out what rishis mean. After that find out what sruti means after that take a bath and sleep it out. That’s about the best you can do in such circumstances.
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Ibrahim say: that is because it is translation of a revelation revealed to prophets in the middle east , which veda vyasa altered and had been revised over and over again till kingdom come, just like the Bible.
cont..seems this new board does not accept large posts
Ibrahim says ; hmmm pity and I posted what the Sanskrit lexicon says, maybe like all else, I have to post them again and again , in the hope that you will be AWAKE at some point in time to understand them.
Here Read, for your sake……….
** Manu ** : mfn. thinking , wise , intelligent VS. S3Br. ; m. " the thinking creature(?) "' , ** man ** , mankind RV. VS. AitBr. TA1r. (also as opp. to evil spirits RV. i , 130 , 8 ; viii , 98 , 6 &c. ; the Ribhus are called %{manor@napAtaH} , ** the sons of man** , iii , 60 , 3) ; the Man par excellence or the representative man and** father of the human race (regarded in the RV.** as the first to have instituted sacrifices and religious ceremonies , and associated with the Rishis Kanva and Atri ; in the AitBr. described as dividing his possessions among some of his sons to the exclusion of one called Na1bha1-nedishtha q.v. ; called Samvarana as author of RV. ix , 101 , 10-12 ; A1psava as author of ib. 106 , 7-9 ; in Naigh. v , 6 he is numbered among the 31 divine beings of the upper sphere , and VS. xi , 66** as father of men even identified with Prajs-pati** ; but ** the name Manu is esp. applied to 14 successive mythical progenitors and sovereigns of the earth ** , described Mn. i , 63 and in later wks. as creating and supporting this world through successive Antaras or long periods of time see %{manv-antara} below ; the first is called Svayambhuva as sprung from %{svayam-bhU} , the Self-existent , and described in Mn. 12 , 34 as a sort of secondary creator , who commenced his work by producing 10 Prajapatis or Maharshis , of whom the first was %{marIci} , Light ; to this Manu is ascribed the celebrated " code of Manu “’ see %{manu-saMhitA} , and two ancient Sutra works on Kalpa and Grihya i.e. sacrificial and domestic rites ; he is also called Hairanyagarbha as son of Hiranya-garbha , and Pracetasa , as son of Pra-cetas ; the next 5 Manus are called Svarocisha , Auttami , Ta1masa , Raivata , Ca1kshusha cf. IW. 208 n. 1 ; the 7th Manu , called %{vaivasvata} ,** Sun-born , or from his piety , %{satya-vrata} , is regarded as the progenitor of the present race of living beings , and said , like the Noah of the Old Testament , to have been preserved from a great flood by Vishnu or Brahma in the form of a fish:** he is also variously described as one of the 12 Adityas , as the author of RV. viii , 27-31 , as the brother of Yama , who as a son of he Sun is also called Vaivasvata , as the founder and first king of Ayodhya , and as father of Ila who married Budha , son of the Moon , the two great solar and lunar races being thus nearly related to each other see IW. 344 ; 373 ; ** the 8th Manu or first of the future Manus ** accord. to VP. iii , 2 , will be Sa1varni ; the 9th Daksha-sa1varni ; the 12th Rudra-sñsavarni ; the 13th Raucya or Deva-sñsa1varn2i ; the 14th Bhautya or Indra-sñsa1varni) ; thought (= %{manas}) TS. Br. ; a sacred text , prayer , incantation , spell (= %{mantra}) RamatUp. Pancar. Prata1p. ; N. of an Agni MBh. ; of a Rudra Pur. ; of Krisasva BhP. ; of an astronomer Cat. ; (pl.) the mental Powers BhP. ; N. of the number `” fourteen "’ (on account of the 14 Manus) Suryas. [784,3] ; f. Manu’s wife (= %{manAvI}) L. ; Trigonella Corniculata L. [Cf. Goth. {manna} ; Germ. {Mannus} , son of {Tuisto} [TM] , mentioned by Tacitus , in his wk. {Germania} ,** the mythical ancestor of the West-Germans , {mann} , {man} ; Angl. Sax. {man} ; Eng. {man}.]**
Ibrahim says : Just pathetic, you are communicating in ENGLISH in this medium, had you been talking Japanese I would have said it in Japanese for you but I would not be surprised you have problems understanding English too.
Ibrahim says: apparently you cannot understand what I mean, so let me make this simple for you. The Creator establishes laws which may be changed from time to time as per His absolute will, get it?
This is like the boss of the company managing his business the way he desires. Hope that was not too difficult for your mind to digest.
Ibrahim says: ask the Hindus why they are vegetarians when their own books says Rama and Indra (hindu gods) eat beef?
Now do something, stop scratching your head and do the research. just don’t ask me to spoon feed you all the time!
Ibrahim says: why this obsession with the thigh bone? Where is this thigh bone coming from?
Ibrahim says: why am I not surprised? Since earlier you said
Andhra wrote: “Also for your information the average ** Hindu doesn’t know Vedas ** and couldn’t care less. ** What he follows are the Hindu Gods, who replaced the VEdic Gods.”**
Ibrahim says; It does not take a scientist to wonder why and how gods can be replaced and by whom? , but for hindus it is all too common since their mind is an empty one capable of accommodating anything and everything without any justification whatsoever!
Ibrahim says: LOL! Every scripture on this planet will tell you that, since all that exist now came after the destruction in the flood and the law given to the First man ( Adam) was totally abolished and replaced with law as given to prophet Ibrahim [pbuh] ( the 8th Manu in Hinduism)
Ibrahim says: hmm….so you suppose, nothing was written by me or it did not have any verifiable evidence in them?
OR DO I NEED TO POST ALL OF THAT INFO HERE ON THIS THREAD TOO?
cont…
Ibrahim says : what silliness! No one was a hindu, except those that invented that name in India! The word hindu itself has no bearing in the Vedas or any scriptures that hindus have. So All prophets were Muslims which the hindus corrupted and turned into their gods/idols.
here chew this
Verily, in the beginning this (universe) was water, nothing but a sea of water. The waters desired, ‘How can we be reproduced?’ They toiled and became heated (with fervid devotion), when they were becoming heated, a golden egg was produced. The year, indeed, was not then in existence: this golden egg floated about for as long as the space of a year.** In a year’s time a man, this Prajapati, was produced therefrom;** and hence a woman, a cow, or a mare brings forth within the space of a year; for Prajapati was born in a year. He broke open this golden egg. There was then, indeed, no resting-place: only this golden egg, bearing him, floated about for as long as the space of a year." – Satapatha Brahmana 11:1:6:1-2.
Ibrahim says off course this is chicken and egg story good only for children and rational people may laugh at it, but in Hinduism this is the creation story
Then we look further
** That first being (Prajapati) became afraid;** therefore one becomes afraid when one is alone. Then he thought to himself: ‘Of what should I be afraid, when there is no one but me?’ So his fear left him, for what was he going to be afraid of? One is, after all, afraid of another. He found no pleasure at all; so one finds no pleasure when one is alone. ** He wanted to have a companion. Now he was as large as a man and a woman in close embrace. So he split his body into two, giving rise to husband (pati) and wife (patni). .. . He (Prajapati) copulated with her, and from their union human beings were born. ** She then thought to herself: ‘After begetting me from his own body, how could he copulate with me? I know – I’ll hide myself.’ So she became a cow. But he became a bull and copulated with her. From their union cattle were born. Then she became a mare, and he a stallion; she became a female donkey, and he, a male donkey. And again he copulated with her, and from their union one-hoofed animals were born. Then she became a female goat, and he, a male goat; she became an ewe, and he, a ram. And again he copulated with her, and from their union goats and sheep were born. ** In this way he created every male and female pair that exists, down to the very ants. …** – Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 1:4:2-6.
Ibrahim says: again this may sound silly but for Hindus, this is the TRUTH and we cannot disagree with them can we?
** Now lets proof that all this is in error by establishing where Brahma ( the First god in the hindu trinity) lived **
Lets look at these texts in the Veda ( sruti or timeless and beyond corruption scripts in Hinduism)
** Atharva Veda X, 2, 28: [On Ka’bah]
Whether it is built high, its walls are in a straight line or not, but God is seen in every corner of it. He who knows the House of God, knows it because God is remembered there. **
The Ka’bah is not exactly cubical and its sides are not of the same length. The Holy Sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka’abah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying to Allah (the One True God). Muslims face toward it during prayer forming circle in the Haram (Holy House) and the circle extends out in this manner throughout the planet Earth.
**Atharva Veda X, 2, 31:[On Holy Sanctuary (House) and Ka’bah]
This abode of the angels has eight circuits and nine gates. It is unconquerable, there is eternal life in it and it is resplendent with Divine light. **
The holy sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka’bah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying and supplicating to Allah (the One True God). It has remained unconquerable. Abraha Al-Ashram, the Abbysinian viceroy of Yemen, tried to demolish it in 570 CE with a strong army and hordes of elephants but was prevented from entering the city (Holy precinct). The people of Makkah had decided not to defend the Ka’bah, fled the city and took refuge in nearby hills overlooking Ka’bah. By Allah’s Command, the ‘Abaabeel’ (flying creatures, birds) pelted stones at Abraha’s army and decimated it, leaving them like green crops devoured by cattle. This incident is described in the Surah (chapter) 105 of the Qur’an. The year 570 CE is popularly known by the Arabs as ‘The year of the Elephant,’ and Prophet Muhammad was born in that year.
Dr. Vidyarthi points out the following facts. The House of God has nine gates - Baab-e-Ibrahim (Abraham) , Baab-al-Wedaa, Baab-as-Safa, Baab-e-Ali, Baab-e-Abbas, Baab-un-Nabi, Baab-as-Salaam, Baab-az-Ziyarat, and Baab-e-Haram. Further, the eight circuits are the natural lines enclosing the areas between the surrounding hills, the names of which are: Jabal-e-Khaleej, Jabal-e-Qaiqaon, Jabal-e-Hindi, Jabal-e-Laalaa, Jabal-e-Keda, Jabal-e-Abu Hadidah, Jabal-e-Abi Qabees, and Jabal-e-Umar.
**Atharva Veda X, 2, 33: [On Abraham and more on Holy Sanctuary and Ka’bah]
Brahma (Ibrahim /Abraham) stayed in this abode which is illumined by heavenly light and covered with Divine blessings. It is the place that gives (spiritual) life to the people and is unconquerable. **
The Ka’bah was built by Prophets Abraham and Ismail. It has remained unconquerable as explained in the preceding verse. Many verses of the Holy Qur’an and of the Old Testament in the Bible describe the divine blessings in this Holy house.
In addition to texts found in the veda, the under mentioned texts found in the SVETASVATARA UPANISHAD goes one step further to establish the Ka’bah as the house of God ( as it was known in the past)
chapter 3:
Separate from all the senses, yet reflecting the qualities of all the senses, ** it is the lord and ruler of all, it is the great refuge of all. **
The embodied spirit within the town with nine gates, the bird, flutters outwards, ** the ruler of the whole world, of all that rests and of all that moves. **
** Grasping without hands, hasting without feet, he sees without eyes, he hears without ears. He knows what can be known, but no one knows him; they call him the first, the great person . **
For further reference on above passage visit http://www.hinducentral.com/Hinducentral/Hindu%20Scriptures/Upanishads/SVETASVATARA%20UPANISHAD.htm
hence the City called ** Navadvaare Pure ** in hindus csriptures = in the place where there are nine gates , has been clearly identified as the Ka’bah in Makkah.
Now the question is why would the hindu scriptures have such mention of the Ka’bah if they were actually considered an eastern religion having no relation with Islam and originates in India?
For a full treatment of some hindu scriptures and their relation to Islam kindly visit http://www.islam-mauritius.org/hindunislam.htm"
Ibrahim, I would humbly suggest that you consider the work you have done to be in need of explanation with an eye to the respect of your readers, giving benefit of the doubt to them. The best religious teachers and scholars take an arrogant stance relatively rarely in the discourse of imparting knowledge. The trick is to avoid putdowns, as it detracts from the wisdom that is tarnished by the bundling of insight with haughty attitudes. These threads do wander in content, as does ordinary conversation. The moderators are reasonable in allowing some vearing off subject.
Ibrahim says : greetings of Peace to one and all
Dear Tomasso, I am not a religious teacher, teaching religion or imparting knowledge in this forum. .** I am here correcting errors and confounding those who may be abusing this forum with their eloquent speeches whilst establishing disbelief ** into the minds of those who may lack clarity in certain matters.
The participants of forums and email groups vary and some are here just to taunt others with seet speech but misleading ways ( this is becoming a major problem in Muslim email groups and forums for some time now and heavily supported and operated by Christians and hindus most of the time ) and others may be here sincerely to find out what they did not know.
I am here specifically here after such people who are bent on disseminating disinformation , so my approach might not be at all pleasant. On one hand I have the carrot on the other I hold a stick. This is like a policeman on beat, little wonder they end up being called pigs even though they are just doing their job.
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Let me just quote what I was reading just a few minutes back, which may provide some details as to why I sound so strange.
Thanks for your insights, I provide as much info as possible when asked nicely but when taunted I won’t hesitate to step outside the folds of Islamic principals to get the message across.
Kindness, gentleness is the best policy ** but these days people are taking it as a weakness and seem to be abusing those who are kind and patient till they end up losing their minds** and everyone seem to support it including you, who seem to support the Jews against the tortured and oppressed Palestinians in their own home land because you have been led to believe otherwise.
So much for justice, ** in the absence of justice ONLY EVIL permeates. **
Regards
Ibrahim
** Do not worry about the potholes in the road. Celebrate the journey! **
ibrahim you view countries as some kind
of religious entities and think relationsship
can only exist on commonality of religen.
you have to undrstand the religious nationalism not going to replace political
nationalism.
I read this thread and Admire Ibrahim’s eloquency and logic
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for Ibrahim!
Keep on nice and just spanking
ibrahim which country you think is truly islamic and why? i may ask stupid question time to time you have to bear with me.
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
ibrahim which country you think is truly islamic and why? i may ask stupid question time to time you have to bear with me.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: sorry rvikz, this is the religious forum not the fun forum , here one has to be responsible for statements they make and MUST have the decency to answer questions put to them with regards to issues they raised.
** Evasion means deceit and I generally will not entertain such characters. **
So if you want me to bear you out, I suggest you provide answers for my earlier questions which are……….(repeated third time)
[quote]
rvikz my dear, I asked you two simple questions based on what you quoted.
** 1) where you got your other idols from, if Brahman cannot be seen ? which simply means which hindu is worshipping Brahman?
2) why the House that Brahma built ended up in Makkah? Which means Brahma did not live in India but in Arabia. **
[/quote]
little scientific consideration will
show that a picture/idol has a higher
information content than other religious
representations. Sure the quality of
information content of various representations
can be debated. This is where the personal
choice and judgement is going to be the
deciding factor.
let us say a muslim christian hindu and bhuddist pray for rain in a drought stricken
land and god answers with rain are they going to fight which god is responsible
for rainfall?all of their objecttives are same but their prying style may be different.
All the religions of the world - with the general exception of
Protestant Christians, Muslims and Jews - use some sort of images or
statues in their religious worship. Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox
churches abound with statues, paintings and pictures of various types.
Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist and Shinto groups use them as well. Native
American, African and Asian religions abound with them. The ancient
religions of the entire world from Mexico to Greece, Egypt, Babylonia,
Persia, India and China used images, as archeology so clearly reveals.
The use of images appear as an integral part of human religious
practices and no universal religion could be regarded as complete
without them. Even many Protestant Christians have pictures of Jesus
in their house or church.
[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited February 09, 2002).]
[quote]
The use of images appear as an integral part of human religious
practices and no universal religion could be regarded as complete without them.
[/quote]
rvikz my dear, my question was ………..
** 1) where you got your other idols from, if Brahman cannot be seen ? which simply means which hindu is worshipping Brahman?
2) why the House that Brahma built ended up in Makkah? Which means Brahma did not live in India but in Arabia. **
[/quote]
now work on it rvikz, just simple straight forward answers, be sincere and look in the mirror once in awhile
** THE MAN / WOMAN IN THE MIRROR**
If you get what you want in your struggle for self
And the world makes you king for a day,
Just go to a mirror and look at yourself
And see what THAT man has to say.
For it isn’t your father or mother or wife
Who judgment upon you must pass,
** The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life
Is the one staring back from the glass.**
He's the fellow to please, never mind all the rest
For he's with you clear up to the end,
And you've passed your most dangerous difficult test
If the man in the glass is your friend.
You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years
And get pats on the back as you pass,
**But your final reward will be heartache and tears
If you've cheated the man/woman in the glass! **
Just a poem for self reflection, *the keyword here is U, yes only U and nobody else, * will be held accountable for your actions.
Best Regards
Ibrahim
** you have built castles in the air, now put some foundation for them **
Ibrahim,
Veda Vyasa is NOT the author of Vedas. YOu seem to like to prove that Vedas are God's words revealed, but they are not.
They are metaphysical speculations.
For your information, Vedas are undated, though svcholars put it around 1500 B.C.
Hinduism doesn't treat Vedas the way Islam treats Koran and CHristians the Bible.
If it gives you any satisfaction to say that Hindus are misguided Muslims who didn't follow God's reveled Words from a Prophet, you are sadly mistaken.
Because Hinduism rejects 'Prophethood', be it Mohammed, Christ or Budhha.
Essentially the Rig Veda is dominated by hymns praising the Aryan gods for giving them victories and wealth plundered from the local Dasas through warfare. The Aryans apparently used their advances in weaponry and skill in fighting to conquer the agricultural and tribal peoples of the fading Harappan culture. Numerous hymns refer to the use of horses and chariots with spokes which must have given their warriors a tremendous advantage. Spears, bows, arrows, and iron weapons are also mentioned. As a nomadic and pastoral culture glorifying war they established a new social structure of patriarchal families dominated by warriors and, eventually with the power of the Vedas themselves, by priests also.
In Rig Veda III:34:9 Indra killed the Dasyus and “gave protection to the Aryan color.” Not only did the Aryans shamelessly pray for booty in war, but they based their militarily won supremacy on the lightness of their skin color compared to the dark colors of the native Dasyus. They arrogantly proclaimed, “Let those who have no weapons suffer sorrow.” (Rig Veda IV:5:14.)
it is more like racist doctrine
[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited February 10, 2002).]
vedas are also speculation following verses
about creation theory
Where do the gods fit in this creation scheme?
The non-existent was not; the existent was not at that time. The atmosphere was not nor the heavens which are beyond. What was concealed? Where? In whose protection? Was it water? An unfathomable abyss?
There was neither death nor immortality then. There was not distinction of day or night. That alone breathed windless by its own power. Other than that there was not anything else.
Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning. All this was an indistinguishable sea. That which becomes, that which was enveloped by the void, that alone was born through the power of heat.
Upon that desire arose in the beginning. This was the first discharge of thought. Sages discovered this link of the existent to the nonexistent, having searched in the heart with wisdom.
Their line [of vision] was extended across; what was below, what was above? There were impregnators, there were powers: inherent power below, impulses above.
Who knows truly? Who here will declare whence it arose, whence this creation? The gods are subsequent to the creation of this. Who, then, knows whence it has come into being?
Whence this creation has come into being; whether it was made or not; he in the highest heaven is its surveyor. Surely he knows, or perhaps he knows not.
“rvikz”, before you contiue your rhetoric, you still hav’nt answered Ibrahim’s simple questions!
Man take a break and get to the point>
i dont even know when i prayed to what?
or for what reason?
[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited February 10, 2002).]
Ibrahim says: Andhra my dear, where have I said vyasa was the author of Vedas. When I have given you the meaning of vayasa as the “compiler” into Sanskrit, why are you still in the thick?
Ibrahim says Did I not tell you to find out what sruti means?
Ibrahim says: so now you will become the greatest hindu scholar of our times?
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So tell us who made the speculations and why hindus ended up believing in them to this minute, if they were just mere speculations.
When the fools in India are demolishing mosques claiming that land belongs to their god (ram) , are you telling me it was based on speculation?
Ibrahim says so what? You mean when anything is undated it did not come into existence or it has to be discarded
Try locating the date of Brahman in Hinduism
Ibrahim says: you mean today’s hindus do not know why their ancestors believed in them , don’t you?
Ibrahim says If that is the case why not try to negate what was written in them ( already given you sufficient evidence about the House of God being Makkah) and about Arabia and the Prophet named Muhammad translated to praiseworthy.
Ibrahim says: you mean Hindus had deluded themselves into believing as such in our times even though their scriptures says otherwise, don’t you?
Regards
Ibrahim
ibrahim you want me answer for others i dont
answer for hindus. all hindus dont agree with eachother and it should be that way
allowingg freeedom of thought.
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
ibrahim you want me answer for others i don’t answer for hindus. all hindus dont agree with eachother and it should be that way allowingg freeedom of thought.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : what ? are you hindu or not? Did you not claim Brahman was their God that cannot be seen, and did you not claim the Muslims had copied from them on this thread?