Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
Iconoclast, So where is your ghairet when other nations are taking leaps into science and technological advancement? Most people in your country still don't have electricity. Where is your ghairet then?? Is it stuck in a woman's vagina?
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
Asal main ghairat key liye mujhey koi angrezi lafz nahiN pata tha, the nearest i cud fathom was jealousy.
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
Asal main ghairat key liye mujhey koi angrezi lafz nahiN pata tha, the nearest i cud fathom was jealousy.
honour...not jealousy
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
Iconoclast, So where is your ghairet when other nations are taking leaps into science and technological advancement? Most people in your country still don't have electricity. Where is your ghairet then?? Is it stuck in a woman's vagina?
If you are talking agaiinst honour killings or crime related to it, then i do not endorse such actions, but if you mean that it shud be okay for a man if his woman sleeps around with others, then frankly, i do not have the words to argue with you. It may be okay with a minority but for most men on this earth, this not okay.
Adultery is still considered an immorality but majority of humans on this earth. A minority however have become moderately enlightened.
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
It's not protectivism. It's about making sure women dont come across something better. That a woman should not know if her husband is bad for her and another man might be better. It's suppression in the truest sense.
It comes down to the Muslim man who feels insecure and small. A man who is weak will tell his wife he's protecting her from the outside world by keeping her inside his own small world. In reality it's not about protectivism - he fears his wife will run off with another man if he does not cover her, room her or monitor her. The wife goes along with it because she's being "protected".
The implications are this : Muslim men own their wives. Muslim men are perverts who'll steal another man's wife. Muslim women are horny and will go right along if they find something better. Thus the only way your wife wont run away is by having her tied to your bed frame.
It's plain stupid!
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
The only way your wife wont run away for something better is by having her tied to your bed frame.
Well, in your case that would be the only solution...
However, it's not even a matter of protecting...It is also a matter of intimacy and creating a society where intimacy between a husband and wife can be achieved...
You cannot achieve the satisfaction of intimacy with a whore...The only thing you can achieve is sexual pleasure...When intimacy is achieved between a man and a woman, the pleasure and satisfaction of sex and a happily married life increases many folds...
And how is intimacy achieved? It is achieved by knowing for a fact and without a doubt that your wife was made for you alone and that you were made for your wife...That way, certain thoughts such as how many men did my sleep with, how many boyfriends did she have that she kissed before kissing me e.t.c. do not hinder a relationship...
So it's more psychological than physical...And once intimacy is achieved, no self respecting man would want his wife to be viewed as a sex object or be leered at by other men...That would just bring in jealousy and suspicion...
The women also want the security and pleasure of an intimate relationship...
In the absence of intimacy, no covering or modesty is required...The woman doesn't care about the man and the man doesn't care about the woman...
What you love and cherish, you will always keep from the prying eyes of the world...
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
What you love and cherish, you will always keep from the prying eyes of the world...
Keep her locked up just in case THE WIFE finds someone to love her more. Not the husband. The wife.
You define intimacy as "knowing your wife was made for you alone". Sure the husband needs security and assurance his wife's not a broad - but where is the wife's say in this? Why cant she keep her husband at home all day to make sure he's not having sex with other girls and boys (yes muslim men are gay too). Isnt the wife entitled to the same security and pleasure of an intimate relationship? Silly me. You because you believe a Muslim woman is a sex crazed whore. The man is not. How dare the woman demand her husband stay at home.
You are right when you say it's pshycological. The reasoning behind keeping your wife at home is not about protecting her but rather protecting the weak man from having her run off if she comes accross a better man. A man she loves more. A man who loves her more. A relationship in which there is more intimacy.
What you love, cherish and trust - you will willingly let out of your sight. That is, unless you think women are like dogs who need leashes around their neck. Wouldnt want to have your dog run away now, would you Lajawab?
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
Keep her locked up just in case THE WIFE finds someone to love her more. Not the husband. The wife.
You define intimacy as "knowing your wife was made for you alone". Sure the husband needs security and assurance his wife's not a broad - but where is the wife's say in this? Why cant she keep her husband at home all day to make sure he's not having sex with other girls and boys (yes muslim men are gay too).** Isnt the wife entitled to the same security and pleasure of an intimate relationship? Silly me. You because you believe a Muslim woman is a sex crazed whore. The man is not. How dare the woman demand her husband stay at home. **
Well, that is the object of creating a society in which women are 'protected' so that the husband doesn't have sex with other girls...The women should be certain that her husband is not romping around and the only way she can be sure is by knowing that outside, women are taboo for him...Or boys in your case...
But you are wrong on one account...Muslim men are not gay and gays are not Muslims...Just because one has a Muslim name does not make him a Muslim automatically...There are certain injunctions and criteria that one must believe in before being proclaimed as Muslim...Just like having a doctor at the end of one's name does not qualify anyone to perform surgery because certain criteria and injunctions must be met with...
[QUOTE]
You are right when you say it's pshycological. The reasoning behind keeping your wife at home is not about protecting her but rather protecting the weak man from having her run off if she comes accross a better man. A man she loves more. A man who loves her more. A relationship in which there is more intimacy.
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You are right to a certain degree...It is not just about running off but surely, there are men out there who would be more appealing to women similarly there are women who would be more appealing to men...So the injunction for the women to cover herself is, so that a situation does not arise where a man's affection may be diverted from his wife to another woman...In case an ugly woman is married, since all women should be married, a situation doesn't arise where the affections of her spouse should turn to another more beautiful lady...
[quote]
What you love, cherish and trust - you will willingly let out of your sight. That is, unless you think women are like dogs who need leashes around their neck. Wouldnt want to have your dog run away now, would you Lajawab?
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Actually, it's the men who need leashes...Rapes are committed by men, not women and the covering is what you may substitute to being a leash...It is a protection for both men and women...
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
i shouldve used the word "ghairat" instead of izzat.
the argument that we should worry about technology and progress instead of the women of one's house is pretty weak reasoning. the same argument could be applied to Namaz and roza and hajj and respecting your elders and flying kites on basant.
you are not going to be any more or less technologically advanced by caring or not caring about ghairat. just because one doesnt care about these things isnt gonna provide electricity to any houses in pak.
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
^ ditto.
Nothing wrong in being protective long as your definition of the word is similar to that of your partner's. In a scenario where two just fail to see each other's perspective, different ways to go is certainly a better option than killing each other.
I dont see how obliterating honor killing mentality can result in loss of ghairat? I just find the two concepts very alien to each other.
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
honor killing was never the thrust of my question, more of a distraction really. the question asked originally is pretty much illustrated in this thread. attitudes of more westernized pakistanies are quite against the whole notion and pretty much adopt the liberal sexual norms of their host culture.
question was if that is a snapshot of things to come.
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
By Izzat I mean the attitude of men towards women in their household in the subcontinent. The attitude that in its extreme causes stuff like honour killings, but amongst more civilized people obligates men to have a protective attitude towards the women in their homes.
a) Is this in your view a good quality to have in our culture?
b) Is this a cultural attitude belonging to the pre-modern age that will be lost as we progress?
a) it depends on whether a man's protective attitude is caused by a desire to protect the woman's well-being and honor...or to protect his own. the former is healthy and desirable, while the latter indicates the viewing of women as property and is thus undesirable. realistically, "izzat" in the subcontinent includes both the former and the latter reasons, but if taken as a weighted average, there is no doubt that the latter represents a much higher value than the former...and this is problematic.
b) yes....one might argue that modernization does not necessarily have to equate to westernization, but the reality is that liberalized views on women are by no means exclusively applicable to modernization in western countries...they're applicable to modernization in all countries. whether it is in the west, far east, middle east, etc...development proliferates liberal views on these issues.
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
a) it depends on whether a man's protective attitude is caused by a desire to protect the woman's well-being and honor...or to protect his own. the former is healthy and desirable, while the latter indicates the viewing of women as property and is thus undesirable. realistically, "izzat" in the subcontinent includes both the former and the latter reasons, but if taken as a weighted average, there is no doubt that the latter represents a much higher value than the former...and this is problematic.
Thank You!
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
You need to define "protective" behavior. That definition even differs between a dad and his daughter.
Okay, so in my situation, my parents were REALLY overprotective when I was a kid. But in my definition of "REALLY overprotective", it means that I wasn't allowed to go anywhere outside of school unless my mom or dad was with me. If I had a social event with my friends, it was to be under parent supervision. So, like eating fast food with friends after school without mummy or daddy was a not allowed.
I'm 24 now, and if I go out, I still call them before leaving, and after getting back, so they know I wasn't hurt on my evening out.
Is that a bad thing? No, because you know what? When my dad used to go travelling on business trips, he'd do the same - he'd call in and let us call in to check up on him.
The protective aspect goes both ways. You always want someone to have some idea of where you are and what you're doing. You don't want to be the 5 day old rotting body in your own apartment, and no one having known that you died.
Is that what you mean by protective? If not, please explain.
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
hskhan!
It might be a news to you that its not just the husbands, even brothers and fathers have ghairat for their women. So this, she might find someone better argument does not hold.
Re: Is "Izzat" going to become antiquated
hskhan!
It might be a news to you that its not just the husbands, even brothers and fathers have ghairat for their women. So this, she might find someone better argument does not hold.
My argument holds up perfectly fine.
Her father reigns supreme for 20 years. Her brother only when Husband and Father are dead. Her husband reigns over her for most of her life. 80% of her life will be spent subject to her husband. Not father. Not brother. Not son. Husband.
If she's going to run away from anyone, she's going to run away from her Husband.