You see my friend, I’m very poor in the Asool-ul-hadith. I’ll inshaAllah enroll my self in this course and then I would be at a better grounds to discuss them. However what seem to be the problem here is that a word with two meanings has been used and that is some think it is ‘cut’ and other say it is ‘collected hair’
According to your reply it is ‘cut their hair’ which is the appropriate context. However to me it seems like it is the other meaning which fits here. As one of the wives of Muhammad [s] was taking bath. And it comes right after telling that she pured water on head. The wet hair might have ‘collected’ on the head. Besides the number given to the hadith mentioned in the first place is 320. And the one which I wrote has a different refference number.
So what made you sure that this word carried the same meaning in the above mentioned hadith.
I understand this. I know no translation could be exact in regardless which langauge you are tranlsating. And I’ve heard that in Arabic there are things which can be mentioned using more than 500 different words. However can you please quote any translation which translated it as a ‘cut’ and not ‘collecthair’
This correlation between men's beard length and women's hair length is weird. Reasons given that men aren't supposed to grow long hair is that they would resemble a woman, reason given that women shouldn't cut hair is that it would resemble a man.
Now apart from the fact that there are obvious anatomical differences, how would you mistake a bloke with a foot long beard for a woman even if he had hair down to his waist?
According to your reply it is 'cut their hair' which is the appropriate
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Not according to my reply necessarily... according to the scholar's reply that Faisal first posted...
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However to me it seems like it is the other meaning...
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With all due respect... you don't know Arabic, you haven't seen the original hadith, in fact, you can't even find it, yet you somehow feel qualified to come out with a "to me it seems like"!? You mentioned elsewhere about asking the people of knowledge if you don't know... i suggest you do the same here yourself...
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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Not according to my reply necessarily... according to the scholar's reply that Faisal first posted...
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There is a so called 'scholar' in Eygpt who gave the rulling that listening to Music is halal. What should I do close my eyes and accept it? And those who translate the Quran and Hadith are generally well versed with Islam.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
With all due respect... you don't know Arabic, you haven't seen the original hadith, in fact, you can't even find it, yet you somehow feel qualified to come out with a "to me it seems like"!? You mentioned elsewhere about asking the people of knowledge if you don't know... i suggest you do the same here yourself...
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I'll inshaAllah ask the people of the knowledge. I had that in mind. Thanks for reminding. Point two 'to me it seems like' is related to what i see in the translated hadith. I never said it is right/wrong.
You somehow miss the questions that I ask. That is not deliberate is it?
There is a so called 'scholar' in Eygpt who gave the rulling that listening to Music is halal. What should I do close my eyes and accept it? And those who translate the Quran and Hadith are generally well versed with Islam.
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Who on earth mentioned music!!?? I merely said that the scholar in Faisal's post is the one who first mentioned "cutting their hair"... i'm not asking you to kneel at the feet of each and every scholar you come across...
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I'll inshaAllah ask the people of the knowledge. I had that in mind.
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Good... finally you are beginning to make some sense...
Addressed to gupguppy
Some of the questions you ignored. Please reply to them for my better understanding.
*1- * So what made you sure that this word carried the same meaning in the above mentioned hadith
*2- * However can you please quote any translation which translated it as a 'cut' and not 'collecthair'
*3- * You somehow miss the questions that I ask. That is not deliberate is it?
some more questions:
The hadith used for the evidence that the ladies can cut hair has a refference number (al-Hayd, 320). The hadith which I quoted and according to you "it is the same hadith". Has a different refference number i.e. (Book 003, Chapter 9 Number 0626).
*Q: * How can you be so sure that both the hadiths are same.
According to you: "In any case, you've found the hadith you were looking for although because you can only refer to translations they might appear different to you..."
*Q: * How can you be sure that you are reading the right translation and I'm reading the wrong translation.
There is a chance that the situation is otherwise.
In one of your explainations you wrote: "You can stop looking, it is the same hadith... the word (from the root verb: a-kha-za) you highlighted as "collected hair" is also, in this context, rightly translated as "cut their hair" as in the earlier hadith posted above... "cut their hair" would explain the commentator's earlier note that this hadith is evidence that "it is permissible for women to cut their hair short."
As an example, the hadith, "Whoever of you sees the moon of Hajj and wishes to make a sacrifice, should not cut (same word and root: a-kha-za) his hair or nails.""
*Q: * Do you know arabic?
*Q: * Have you read the arabic versions of both the hadiths you have quotd above?
*Q: * Can you please tell me the exact hadith number and the book where I can find the Arabic version of the hadith.
*Q: * Is the above quoted explaination is yours of have you copied it from s'where.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by stupid idiot: *
Addressed to **gupguppy*
Some of the questions you ignored. Please reply to them for my better understanding.
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I thought you said you were going to ask a scholar?
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The hadith used for the evidence that the ladies can cut hair has a refference number (al-Hayd, 320). The hadith which I quoted and according to you "it is the same hadith". Has a different refference number i.e. (Book 003, Chapter 9 Number 0626).
*Q: * How can you be so sure that both the hadiths are same.
[/quote]
Because they are the same... reference numbers between Arabic and English translations often differ depending on how the editor has chosen to number the hadith... numbers can run either continuously throughout the book or, as is probably the case with the 'al-Hayd, 320' reference, sometimes hadith numbers start back at #1 again for each chapter... simple isn't it?
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*Q: * How can you be sure that you are reading the right translation and I'm reading the wrong translation.
There is a chance that the situation is otherwise.
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I am not reading a translation... i have the Arabic hadith right before me… you don't... you can't even find where the hadith is...
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*Q: * Do you know arabic?
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Yes.
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*Q: * Have you read the arabic versions of both the hadiths you have quotd above?
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Yes.
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*Q: * Can you please tell me the exact hadith number and the book where I can find the Arabic version of the hadith.
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Which hadith... i quoted two hadith?
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*Q: * Is the above quoted explaination is yours of have you copied it from s'where.
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Don't you poeple have starving children to feed to make you better human beings as well as better muslims, and isn't it funny how the men are most interested in what women should and should not be allowed to do?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
I thought you said you were going to ask a scholar?
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I'll consult the scholar, inshaAllah.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Because they are the same... reference numbers between Arabic and English translations often differ depending on how the editor has chosen to number the hadith... numbers can run either continuously throughout the book or, as is probably the case with the 'al-Hayd, 320' reference, sometimes hadith numbers start back at #1 again for each chapter... simple isn't it?
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Even if use the logic you are using it doesnt make 320.
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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
I am not reading a translation... i have the Arabic hadith right before me… you don't... you can't even find where the hadith is...
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By now I've consulted different translations none said 'cut the hair' Are all the translations I'm reading incorrect?
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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Which hadith... i quoted two hadith?
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Since you have the Arabic with you can you send it to me. PM me please, if that is not a problem for you.
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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Sharh Sahih Muslim and Arabic language...
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Please send the the Arabic text of this as well. Would be very kind of you
I tell you what… you can search the Arabic Sahih Muslim and Sharh Sahih Muslim here http://hadith.al-islam.com/ … if and when you find the hadith you are looking for i’ll be only too happy to continue the discussion… in the meantime, i’m not about to spoon-feed you hadith which you can’t even read just so you can argue for hours about how long a woman’s hair should be… don’t run before you can walk… get your priorities right…
Sorry guys, i would love to continue with the debate but i am going for a vacation and wont be able to participate. I will respond when i come back on the weekend.
-Salman
Can you please spood feed me. I wish to have the arabic text of the hadith so I can consult a ‘sheikh’ who has worked in an Arabic Lexicon. I would appreciate your help.
gupguppy Thank you for giving me the link. I think I’ve found the Arabic Version. Since I have no idea about the Arabic I would like to take a look at the earlier mentioned link. I would be very happy if you can help me in confirming this. I’ll take the Arabic text to s’one who has knowledge and would consult InshaAllah.
However here is the English Translation from the URL you have given to me:
'A’ishah’s Hadith, may Allah be pleased with her.
Abu Salamah bin 'Abdul-Rahman said: I went to ‘A’ishah along with her foster-brother who asked her about the bath of the Messenger (may peace be upon him) because of sexual intercourse. She called for a vessel equal to a Sa’ and she took a bath, and there was a curtain between us and her. She poured water on her head thrice. The reporter said:** The wives of the Messenger (may peace be upon him) collected hair on their heads and these lopped up to ears**
**Q: ** Do you still want me to consult a scholar?
Yes… because that translation is also likely based on the earlier translation from Sahih Muslim you mentioned… most writers refer to Abdul Hamid Siddiqui’s popular translation with little revision… the meaning of the hadith is that the hair was “cut”, not “held” or “collected”…
Jaza-k-Allah brother. I'll just get the print out and ask the sheikh tonight about it, inshaAllah.
*Q: * Do you still disagree with the translation given on this URL. Beucase if the translation is incorrect then how can we be sure if the Arabic version is correct or not?
Once again Jaza k Allah