Is Islam less tolerant than Sikhism, Judaism and Christianity?

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Sofia,

My name is **Rani not Rano **for future please remember that...it is bad manners to distorts people's name. If your intent is to have discussion with somebody, please have the decency to be courteous.

The foundation stone of Harminder Sahib (Golden Temple) was laid by Mian Mir. It is greatness of Guru Arjan Dev Ji that he honored a person from other religion, this was to show and teach the followers that all human beings are children of same God nobody is superior or inferior and all religions lead to same one God. This is true toleration and equality. I hope you learn from it. **
[/quote]

Well played Rani!

But beware of these Mujahids, they will shamelessly come back, again & again & again......

Chuk deyo!

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Sofia,

We don't believe in being children of God. God is far above from such sort of re-production! So we don't believe you have any thing to "teach" us.

You symbol of Indian foolishness!**

Sophia,

Only open minded people can learn....I think you have long ways to go to learn about toleration and God. BTW, there is only God and nobody has monoply on him, we all are his creation.

Rani ji

I agree with you wholeheartedly that only open minded people can learn. Islam is a religion which teaches that the only way forward is the islamic way and every thing else is wrong. The only way you can please God is by doing things the islamic way, if you do this you will anger God and if you do that you will anger God so on so forth.

I have to say that if it was'nt for the narrow mindedness of so called muslims this world would have been a better world to live in.

Rani ji

Sat Sri Akal

there is only God and nobody has monoply on him, we all are his creation.>>

I think now you are upseting the muslims of this world by saying that we are all his creation. God never wanted anybody else apart from the muslims to come to this world, I think we must have sneaked out through the back door and now God is going to be very angry with us and wipe us all the non muslims off from the face of the earth.

Jai Sri Krishna

Rani ji

Sat Sri Akal

there is only God and nobody has monoply on him, we all are his creation.>>

I think now you are upseting the muslims of this world by saying that we are all his creation. God never wanted anybody else apart from the muslims to come to this world, I think we must have sneaked out through the back door and now God is going to be very angry with us and wipe us all the non muslims off from the face of the earth.

Jai Sri Krishna

Ur mistaken man Islam doesent teach us that God only wanted muslims to b created ..we just believe that Islam is the right way ..Allahs way…well we do believe in other prophets who came up with their separate religions but if u insist that u sneaked in frm da back door than well its ur belief, wat can i say bout dat and if u think dat God will b angry wid u and wipe u off than well i’ll pray for u…am sure ur mistaken…God bless u…


A bend in da road is not da end of da road

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by AMMARS (edited August 24, 2000).]

This is interesting !

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Are we participating in this discussion to actually learn, or to bash religions that is the ‘other’ person’s, or is this just for the sake of arguing !?

I have never participated on message boards before, so I will give us all the benefit of the doubt and add my two cents worth thinking that we are all here to learn.

Firstly, I will comment on the last postings I just read (a.k.a. the battle of names). Actually what I want to say is to the people in the end who were kind enough to grace us with their thoughts on what we Muslims believe and so forth.

People, you realize that Islam is very important to us, right ? If you have read the whole chain then I guess you would. Then why do you insist on insulting Islam ? If you know that when you insult our religion it will cause us pain and we will retaliate, then why mess with it ? If insulting some other religion gives you some sort of satisfaction, then I am sorry, I dont think that is very healthy. If you truly believe what you have written, then I would suggest that you do some more research about Islam and its teachings.

Anyhow, the topic of this chain is “Is Islam less tolerant than Sikhism, Judaism and Christianity” … I will add Hinduism to this list as well because apparently that comparision is very hotily debated here.

My response to that is, yes it is when compared with Judaism and Christianity. Unfortunately i dont know much about Hinduism or Sikhism.

I dont know if this compares with Sikhism or Hinduism, but Muslims have never (to my limited knowledge) persecuted people of any other religion just on the basis of their religion. Meaning we have never said, lets kill the people or ABC or lets destroy the people of ABC just because they are people of ABC. If Islam was not tolerant towards other religions, then there wouldnt be any christians living anywhere from Indonesia to Spain, nor would have the christians of Jerusalem helped the muslim rulers of that land during the crusades.

In terms of social interaction and tolerance, we (Muslims) have specific guidelines as to what we should do or should not do. Do these other religions offer the same ? Christianity and Judaism does, but again unfortunately I am not informed well enough about the other religions, and thats why i ask.

There was a huge argument here about the fatwah for Salman Rushdie’s death. Here is some food for thought on that subject. Did you guys know that there have been more books written against Islam than any other religion in the world (last figure i heard was over 600) ? Did you guys also know that even though half of Satanic Versus was written using hindi/urdu words, yet the literary club for children’s books (of all the clubs .. childrens books??) of England gave Salman Rushdie an award ?

It seems that the general understanding on the topic of “freedom of speech” is also dear to the contributors of this chain. Freedom of speech …hhmm.. I have some thoughts on that too … does it make sense to let a person who speaks out of ignorance, or spite, or with ill intentions (causing a stir in society), or a person who speaks out of insanity, … does it make sense to let him speak and take his side and make sure that he is heard .. and heard WELL ? Or does it make sense to teach that person to either speak correctly, or to not speak in a manner which can cause problems ?

I am not in a position, nor do i have the knowledge to say that the Fatwah for Salman Rushdie was valid or not, but should not the people of the world, who are “on his side”, try to correct him ? Or to take actions which can pacify everyone ?

Unfortunately I have to get back to work, but my point is that if you are a person who is out to find the truth, find the right path, and out to find out what is the reality, then you need to have an open mind. Look at the whole picture, do not inquire with the intent to destroy, inquire with the intent to learn.

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Sofia,

We don't believe in being children of God. God is far above from such sort of re-production! So we don't believe you have any thing to "teach" us.

You symbol of Indian foolishness!**

Sophia,

Only open minded people can learn....I think you have long ways to go to learn about toleration and God. BTW, there is only God and nobody has monoply on him, we all are his creation.**
[/quote]

......Kabhi "Creation" Kabhi "Children". Plesae avoid writing anything at 12:00.

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Sofia,

We don't believe in being children of God. God is far above from such sort of re-production! So we don't believe you have any thing to "teach" us.

You symbol of Indian foolishness!**

Sophia,

Only open minded people can learn....I think you have long ways to go to learn about toleration and God. BTW, there is only God and nobody has monoply on him, we all are his creation.**
[/quote]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Please attend to Secular Rani of Secular India if you intend to learn about Secular Toleration (tolerance). She will explain that:

(1) Master Tara Singh was an example of toleration.

(2) The intrusion of Indian military into Harminder Sahib (Golden Tample) taught toleration to Indian Sikhs.

(3) The killing of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala and his companions made Sikhs believe in Toleration.

(4) The murder of Indian P.M. Mrs. Indra Gandhi was the outcome of the same Toleration.

(5) Burning a Sikh Student alive, tieing him with a tree with his own turban, will force you to admit that you must be tolerant if you want to live in Secular India.

(6) The brave martial community of Punjab, the sole inavders from India should be tolerant to listen to all those funniest jokes attached to them becasue they have to live in Secular India!

Toleration my foot! (Haath na pohnchey.....!)

Jo boley so nihaal
Tohada ho gaya bura haal
Sat Sri Akaal!!!!!!!!!!!

(I wonder what is wrong with Sophia Mujahid, her argument in this thread looked quite compromising, quite apologetic!? Buck-up Sophia, LatooN ke bhoot batoon se nahi maantey!)

Fakhira,

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Fakhira Butt:
** Ladies and Gentlemen, Please attend to Secular Rani of Secular India if you intend to learn about Secular Toleration (tolerance). She will explain that:**

We were discussing relgion not political events. Your name calling is clear indication that you have lost an argument. You have no right to question India's Secularism when you have build your nation on Islam back off and bug off.

(1) Master Tara Singh was an example of toleration.

What about him, he was a political leader not a religious one...he understood your version of Islam very well and wanted to protect Sikh interests.

(2) The intrusion of Indian military into Harminder Sahib (Golden Tample) taught toleration to Indian Sikhs.

What has this to do with Sikhism.

(3) The killing of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala and his companions made Sikhs believe in Toleration.

He was no Sant, he should have never taken refuge in Golden Temple. You cannot kill innocent people and hide in the Temple.

(4) The murder of Indian P.M. Mrs. Indra Gandhi was the outcome of the same Toleration.

Indra Gandhi paid for her sins for taking innocent lives...just as Cannon Doyle (JaliaWallah Bagh) did. Toleration is not synonymous with weakness.

(5) Burning a Sikh Student alive, tieing him with a tree with his own turban, will force you to admit that you must be tolerant if you want to live in Secular India.

This is what Indira and her cronies paid for...lot of revenage killing went on. Before you point finger at others, please check to see how your pureland treats non-muslims. In Sophia's words "anybody who creats fuss we kill them".

(6) The brave martial community of Punjab, the sole inavders from India should be tolerant to listen to all those funniest jokes attached to them becasue they have to live in Secular India!

We listen to these Jokes because we are secure, believe in ourselves and take Joke as Jokes not seriously as you insecure people do..we don't issue Fatwa or kill people because they made up some Joke. In your Jest to copy India you muslims tell Sikh jokes although you know nothing about Sikh community...which is truely funny and stupid, maybe you are scared to tell jokes about your community or your community is very dry and lifeless.

>>Toleration my foot! (Haath na pohnchey.....!)<<

Grapes are Sour

Jo boley so nihaal
Tohada ho gaya bura haal
Sat Sri Akaal!!!!!!!!!!!

I think Tohada bura haal throughout the world...word terriorists defines you ...maybe by now you like it

(I wonder what is wrong with Sophia Mujahid, her argument in this thread looked quite compromising, quite apologetic!? Buck-up Sophia, LatooN ke bhoot batoon se nahi maantey!)

World knows about likes of you and Sophia and your killing of innocent people, they don't agree with you, nobody respects killers and women abusers like yourself ...cat is out of the bag

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 25, 2000).]

It is a classic example that these so called muslims can not bear to listen to the truth. If somebody is trying to point out to all the bad things, such as, drinking,gambling,womanising,pimping,drug smuggling etc. etc, being done by a large number of muslims, they have no answer and their administrator deciedes to take the thread off.

Well if the administrator wants to take the thread off because he feels that it is anti muslim feelings then why in the name of hell does he not take off those threads where hindu religion and sikh religion are insulted by these narrow minded so called muslims.

Please tell me Mr Administrator

What did I say wrong in my message in the topic named 'Large number of muslims are drinkers, gamblers and womanisers'

Jai Sri Krishna

Rani

Sat Sri Akal

Please keep debating, you are doing a good job. I'm sure one day, with a bit of effort we will succeed in convincing these very narrow minded people that Krishna and Guru Nanak were just as much messengers of God as was Mohammed.

I don't think that hindus and sikhs have a problem with Mohammed being a prophet of God and I'm sure that we all have great respect for the holy prophet. For peace in this world, muslims have to start treating other religions with same respect as they expect from others for their own religion.

Even the majority of hindus believe that Guru Nanak was a reincarnation of Vishnu and I know that the sikhs believe that he was a prophet sent by God, but I'm sure it must be very hurtfull when the muslims make the statement that Mohammed was the last prophet.

If we keep at it, hopefully one day they will come to their senses and accept the fact that Islam is only one of the colours of the rainbow and all the other colours of the rainbow are just as stunning.

Jai Sri Krishna

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Fakhira,

(1) We were discussing relgion not political events.........

(2) Master Tara Singh was an example of toleration, What about him?......

(3) The intrusion of Indian military into Harminder Sahib (Golden Tample) What has this to do with Sikhism?............

(4) Indra Gandhi paid for her sins for taking innocent lives...just as Cannon Doyle ......

(5) please check to see how your pureland treats non-muslims. In Sophia's words "anybody who creats fuss we kill them"...........

(6) We listen to these Jokes because we are secure, believe in ourselves and take Joke as Jokes not seriously as you insecure people do..we don't issue Fatwa.....

             *************

Oay you, bina Raja ki Rani!

(1) We are Muslims and don't believe in "religons". For your poor information Islam is not a religon but its a "Socio-Economic System". So I was not out of the way, Get it in your silly brain!

(2) What about Master Tara Singh? Your knowledge about your own community is pathetic! (or sometimes it helps fools a lot to pose to be ignorant when they don't have an appropriate response!)

(3) Alas! you guys do not have another Guru Govind Singh who could tell you what is "entity" and how important "self-preservation" is. You better throw away your 5 Ks and ask your Hindu bosses to re-decorate your Golden Temple with all the statues of their Gods and Godesses (That has to happen sooner or later, I bet!)

(4) Ab lagi na kalaijay pe! So you justify the killing of Indira Gandhi! What a shame!That is truly double standard. I wonder how you argued that long with Sophia Mujahid for your difference on "killing the fuss-creator"? you are just confused or metally imbalanced Sardarni Ji!

(5) I have been watching quite carefully your argument with Sophia Mujahid and other Pakistanis blaming them for mistreating minorities, You could never prove it anywhere even once. I remember when Sophia gave you an address of PHA web site, you did not come back with any comments. You can again check how Hindus in pakistan are more than satisfied, so calm that your first reaction was to deny the fact if there were any Hindus in Pakistan!! Your stupid writings are still available in these forums. Have you heared about Pakistani Sikhs being in any trouble? You just beat your own drum to perform your job of chamchagiri!

(6) Sophia rightly called you "symbol of Indian foolishness". So, provide fun stuff to your Hindu masters and what so ever they talk about you , you are obliged to say," Bhaag laggay rehn"! Don't say you don't issue Fatwa, say you can't! for, issueing a Fatwa you need the power of speech and the power of implimenting it and you lack both! You sychophant cowards!

Thanks Fakhira!

My apology for being a bit soft on the issue! These people don't deserve such politeness. But I really enjoyed your befitting reply!

"aap ne to Rani ki bolti band kar di". There is another Miss Devil namely Sushma Kapoor, will you spray some insecticide on her as well?

Fakhira,

You are as Fakhir in your knowledge as your name. All you are about is fight without any logic.

Why do any conversion from Islam to other religion is punishable by death, ....because you guys are afraid that all the followers will run away.

You are talking about toleration, and muslims don't even allow non-muslims to visit Mecca, whereas we even allow muslims to build Musjids in our holy cities.

As for the Hindu site (given by Sophia) go and examine it last news posted on it was at least year old and the site is dying like Hindus in Pakistan....I have no reason to believe in URL given by you, how can anybody prove that it is supported by Hindus....I guess it never occured to you. Everybody should believe mullahs like you otherwise you will kill them.

Sikhism accepts everybody and treats everybody equally regardless of their gender and religion, there are no Kaffirs in Sikhism and nobody is sent to hell for not pleasing God. Unlike you we don't kill people for their believe system. Anybody who creates fuss should be killed is your barbaric motto....don't teach me about toleration when you don't even know what it means.

There are no Sikhs left in Pakistan most of them came to India to escape Mullahs like yourself and your version of Islam "kill anybody who creats fuss" in other words doesn't agree with you or has different belive system. Indira was killed for killling innocent people not for her beliefs. Picking up sword for self protection is also part of Sikhism, I think you are too confused and intolerant to understand the difference.

Sikh toleration is apparant in Guru Arjan Dev Ji's honoring a muslim to lay foundation of a holiest Sikh shrine, thus sending the message that all human beings are born equal. I am sure with your dirty mind you will find some fault with it.

As far as I am concerned this discussion is closed, you and Sophia can keep on abusing everybody and patting each other on the back and advocating killing non-muslims who don't live by your rules...obvilious to the fact what goes around comes around. In this age of mass communication it is very difficult to hide and whitewash the truth.

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 27, 2000).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**

"Bhaag gayi? par bhagney se pehley ye sunti jao" you bina desh ki rani!

Fakhira,

You are as Fakhir in your knowledge as your name. All you are about is fight without any logic.


Is there anyone who can understand what this stupid comment is meant for? Fakhira & Logic.......? Kuchh na samjhey khuda karey koyi!


Why do any conversion from Islam to other religion is punishable by death, ....because you guys are afraid that all the followers will run away.


There is no restriction on coverting your religon. As per our Holy Book, you are at your liberty to accept it or reject it. Your problem is that you have collected all the fake materials attached to Islam. Now, tell everybody that a woman from Islambad has told you that such non-sense is not in Islam.


You are talking about toleration, and muslims don't even allow non-muslims to visit Mecca, whereas we even allow muslims to build Musjids in our holy cities.


A mosque is a premises where all the governmental affairs are conducted in a Muslim society. A "mohallah" mosque is of course on a local level, a Jamia Mosque is on a larger scale say on a town level and City of Mecca is supposed to be a place for international affairs (for Muslims of course). If you want to better understand it then you can visalize the needs of various governmental offices to be centralized at UNO. So Mecca is supposed to be a meeting point for world Muslim Community. Try to get it in your silly brain. As it is meaning less for a non-Muslim to enter in a Mosque, similarly the whole city of Mecca is regarded as a Mosque. This point is nothing to do with toleration. We dont allow Non-Muslims to poke their nose into our governmental affairs.


As for the Hindu site (given by Sophia) go and examine it last news posted on it was at least year old and the site is dying like Hindus in Pakistan....I have no reason to believe in URL given by you, how can anybody prove that it is supported by Hindus....I guess it never occured to you. Everybody should believe mullahs like you otherwise you will kill them.


I understand, it is hard for you to swallow that Hindus in Pakistan are really living in peace. If Sophia's referred site did not appeal you then you give a source to know the facts. I have travelled from Islamabad to Karachi more than 8 times by road and I second Sophia's idea that leaving Punjab, entering Sindh we come to know that how these villages are still under the influence of Hindus. Once in a small town Kashmore, we visited a Hindu transporter's home and I requested them to let me visit theri Mandir. This may even be surprising to you that in that Mandir they had Granth Sahib (same in the cradle like Sophia mentioned in your Nankana Sahib Gurudwara). We never hear any news from your zee tv if there is any fuss about hindus in Pakistan. You are suggested to establish your own channel so that your fussy-propaganda may reach to more & more people. In fact, its not so!


Sikhism accepts everybody and treats everybody equally regardless of their gender and religion, there are no Kaffirs in Sikhism and nobody is sent to hell for not pleasing God. Unlike you we don't kill people for their believe system. Anybody who creates fuss should be killed is your barbaric motto....don't teach me about toleration when you don't even know what it means.


The tolerance of Sikhs is preserved in the history. In Ranjit Singh regime, his jarnail Hari Singh Nalwa has made history of killing Pathans. For many month, it was his order to capture 4 pathns everyday and hang them on 4 Minars of Masjid Mohabit Khan in Peshawar. In Punjab, people still tease pathans with the legend that Pathan women used to frighten their children saying, " Nalwa Raghley" (Gabbar Singh aa jaye ga!). If barbarism is ommitted from your Sikhism nothin will remain, it was the sword & sword alone which give you this entity. (and you borrowed it from Muslims! do you have any word in Punjabi for Shaheed?) and what to say about Sikh agression in 1947......and how this Canadian base lass talk about toleration! Hindus say that the earliest Sikhs who answered guru Govind Singh's call were the Shudars.......well! I dont believe in cast or secterianism.....this is how others look at you.


There are no Sikhs left in Pakistan most of them came to India to escape Mullahs like yourself and your version of Islam "kill anybody who creats fuss" in other words doesn't agree with you or has different belive system. Indira was killed for killling innocent people not for her beliefs. Picking up sword for self protection is also part of Sikhism, I think you are too confused and intolerant to understand the difference.


I am pleased that you have learnt it by heart "kill the fuss creators". Thank God you quote it repeatedly without changing it to "kill who believe in other religons". Think it cool mindedly (I don't think you can) try to get a defination who is fuss creator and then you will start believing it. The whole unrest in the world is due to some fuss creators, they mush be eliminated. We believe in confinement baby!


Sikh toleration is apparant in Guru Arjan Dev Ji's honoring a muslim to lay foundation of a holiest Sikh shrine, thus sending the message that all human beings are born equal. I am sure with your dirty mind you will find some fault with it.


Be it Baba Nanak or Guru Arjun Dev ji, they tried their best to make the two communities (Hindus and Muslims) live in peace & harmony but what is the result? A new sect came into existance, the Sikhs! Be realistic, Both of these major sects have rich doctrines and it will take centuries to compromize on various philosophies presented by both doctrines in their opposite ways. What is in Sikhism, they have just "copied" (you call it "cut & paste" today!) some "achhi achhi batein" from both religons, but who cares? Guru to sub chaley gaye aur hamarah wastah purd gaya un ke khalsooN se! Ek number ke na Khalis!


As far as I am concerned this discussion is closed, you and Sophia can keep on abusing everybody and patting each other on the back and advocating killing non-muslims who don't live by your rules...obvilious to the fact what goes around comes around. In this age of mass communication it is very difficult to hide and whitewash the truth.


You will get "eeint ka jawab pathhar" whenever you will create fuss with anyone about Pakistan, Muslims Or Islam. I have told you we dont kill Non-Muslims but only fuss creators. Everybody has right to choose and live as per belief. Dont attach such blames to our Islam. At the same time, before critisizing our abusing, see within yourself, I have go through your long debate with an Indian Muslim, where you were demonstrating your decency with self praise for Sikhs and saying all the worst for UP Muslims. You taunt Indian Muslims relating them to Kotha prostitutes..What a shame! Can you claim that no Sikh women are in this profession? Talking about a certain communities body size and boasting about Sikh physique, that shows your mental level. I have visited Sharajah many a times for Cricket matches , and seen overthere Sikhs in abundance. Labourers, carpanters, masons and all such jobs, I dont understand what makes you feel the most prosprous community in India. Watch you Sikh yatri coming back home from Pakistan, who they shop cloth and electronics like wild people.....

Anyway, say Thank to God, that you are on Internet, jitni bak-bak tum kar chuki ho, agar merey samney hoti to klashankof ka ek burst kafi hai tumharey liye!

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 27, 2000).]**
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