Xtreme Badsha, Forget about the hypothetical, tell us when are you starting to write this book? “Nanik – The Groin Guru”. You can have Mundyaa write a forward, and I will be happy to do a critique. I will use terms like confiding, witty, self-lacerating, arrogant, humble, and unfailingly convincing in my review. Make sure to include a character named Ayatola the prickhead.
Xtreme....I am neither a Sikh nor a Christian so I should keep out of this discussion but I would like to add something here. In India, when M.F.Hussain painted the Goddess Saraswati in the nude and made fun of her, there were some Shiv Sena goons who went to his house to protest. They were later arrested and put into jail for (1) not protesting peacefully and for (2) for trying to infringe upon Hussain's right to free speech and expression. I found it funny that Pakistani newspapers made a big deal when the Shiv Sainiks attacked Hussains house but thats another story !!I can't say for sure if any religion is more tolerant than others, but the followers of Islam seem to be less tolerant than followers of other religion. I think this is pretty much a fact and should not be taken as an insult. There is nothing wrong in being protective about your beliefs. It's just that others are not that easily insulted. People from most other religions are not that religious too and they don't follow it as strictly as the Muslims do.
BK, I do agree with you and I don't at the same time. i think you are right when you say that muslims are more protective about their religion. Yes we are and we are proud to be so. The reason is simple. Islam commands all of us to love Allah and the prophet more than we love our parents. Only then our religion is complete. Now if I starts hurling insults and abuses at your parents how will you react? Obviously the tolerance will be thrown out of the window and if you have a gun you might just shoot me. We feel the same way yet we do a bad job of explaining it.
I would also like to point out the fact that Dalip Kumar has been the target of Hindu extremists just for receiving an award from Pakistan. It was the extremist GUNDAY of Thakeray that dug up the pitch to not let Pakistan play with India.
The latest has been the controversey in the movie Water where the hindus disallowed the screening of the movie for its depiction of hinduism.
Hope you get my point.
Regards
OK then,
Astrofan, I would now like to inform you that islam believes in peace, love, brotherhood with all mankind.
Ayatollah was in fact speaking in an abstract fashion when he sentenced Rushdie to death. He meant of course, that he was sentenced to die of old age, possibly while picking flowers in Tehran.
NYA,
I wouldn't dream of writing such a book, but I'll pass your ideas on to Hanif Qureshi..he specialises in subjects of an anal matter.
Bombaykid,
I think it's high time India grew up and called a spade a spade. Secularism means just that - separating religion from politics. Not giving everything a hindu hue as per hindutva idealism.
Xtreme
I think it's high time India grew up and called a spade a spade. Secularism means just that - separating religion from politics. Not giving everything a hindu hue as per hindutva idealism. <<
It is funny you act as a watch dog for India teaching us the meaning of secularism with no intention of practicing it in your own country. Your words will only carry wait if you believe in secularism and practice in all the muslim countries. You have no moral authority to tell us what to do regardless of what we call ourselves.
[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
**OK then,
Astrofan, I would now like to inform you that islam believes in peace, love, brotherhood with all mankind.
Ayatollah was in fact speaking in an abstract fashion when he sentenced Rushdie to death. He meant of course, that he was sentenced to die of old age, possibly while picking flowers in Tehran.
**
[/quote]
Cool. So when any of the Ayatollah's followers see Rushdie, they of course would deign not to kill him. If that's the reality of the situation, then, hey, your "spade is a spade".
[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Xtreme
I think it's high time India grew up and called a spade a spade. Secularism means just that - separating religion from politics. Not giving everything a hindu hue as per hindutva idealism. <<
It is funny you act as a watch dog for India teaching us the meaning of secularism with no intention of practicing it in your own country. Your words will only carry wait if you believe in secularism and practice in all the muslim countries. You have no moral authority to tell us what to do regardless of what we call ourselves.
**
[/quote]
u r right Rani we have no right to say dat as we r not secular ourselves but people have da right to object as India's secularism is not wat its portrayed to b...u guys may b more secular than us but minorities in ur countries r also supressed ..well i know u wont accept it but dats a fact.
A bend in da road is not da end of da road:)
Rani,
Here is an article on Indian ‘Secularism’ which I found by following our secular friend Astrofan’s links provided in the Hinduism v Islam debate. Go to that thread and you will see that he gave the link of his own accord and then perhaps you can tell me if you agree with this type of secularism.
=============================================
http://hindubooks.org/whr/ch4.htm
MINORITIES PROBLEM AND ITS SOLUTION
Prof. Balraj Madhok
For making India truly secular, laws and constitution of India should be based on Hindu ideals. Hindus recognise relevance of ethos and ways of worship adopted by its followers. That is why Hindu state never became a theocratic state in its entire history of thousands of centuries. In the Hindu state, minorities were meted out with treatment of equality and it will continue that same in future also. Entire history of Hindus is its proof. As such, there is no reason or cause for the minorities to oppose or come in conflict with Hindu nation and Hindu nation-state of Bharat, i.e. Hindusthan.
Therefore, it is the need of the hour that thinkers, intellectuals, philosophers, statesmen and politicians in India appreciate and assess the minorities problem in India in the light of the world history and the experience of other countries as also the past and present happenings of undivided and divided India, Pakistan & Bangla Desh. They should recognised India as a nation-state and Hindu community as the national community of India, and openly adopted and declare Hindus as Hindu Nation. Only then they will be able to follow a correct policy towards minorities and protect the unity and integrity of India and India’s national community of Hindus, otherwise the unity and integrity of India are in great peril. (Translation by Shyam Lal Kohil)
=============================================
Come on then Rani, as a good citizen of India have you recognised India as a nation-state and Hindu community as the national community of India, and openly adopted and declare Hindus as Hindu Nation??
many people have mentioned the fact that how intolerant Islam and da Ayatullahs r..well not so long ago we use to read about the killings of Christian missionaries in(Gujrat) India..wow some of ma hindu frnds were so tolerant when they were killin those people…but the fact is dat most muslims , hindus, sikhs christians r normal tolerant people but da deeds of da few usually reflect the opinion on da whole community.
A bend in da road is not da end of da road
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by AMMARS (edited August 22, 2000).]
Xtreme
Hindutava followers can say whatever they want they can never impose it on other Indians. ..their comments are very similar to bible thumping southern in US. You can go to any Indian city and you will see Gurdawaras and Masjids all over the city full of followers. Can I say the same about Pakistan..I don't think so.
One of our friends brother a Sikh (eye sergeon) regularly holds eye camps in Pakistan. He recently collected funds and repaired a historical gurdwara in Pakistan -it was about to fall and held first reading of Gurugaranth Sahib in the gurudwara since Partition.
Your comments will hold lot more weight if you valued secularism and try to implement it in Pakistan.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 22, 2000).]
Rani,
Have you ever been to Pakistan? Please answer in yes and no. I have been to India a bunch of times and can have an opinion based on "personal experiences". In your case you have to refer to someone who knows someone whose some relative once visited Pakistan. I regularly contribute to the masjids in India and educational programs for the muslims in India. What does that mean? This is an extremely weak comment that you made and on top of that you are relating the experience of a third party that is totally inconsequential.
Every year thousands of Sikhs from accross the border come to Punjab for their religious pilgrimage. They are given a VIP treatment by the Pakistani authorities. So get your head out of the sand and try looking at facts for a change
[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Xtreme
One of our friends brother a Sikh (eye sergeon) regularly holds eye camps in Pakistan. He recently collected funds and repaired a historical gurdwara in Pakistan -it was about to fall and held first reading of Gurugaranth Sahib in the gurudwara since Partition.
Your comments will hold lot more weight if you valued secularism and try to implement it in Pakistan.
[This message has been edited by Rani
(edited August 22, 2000).]**
[/quote]
What are you complaining about? The apathy of the sikhs living in Pakistan? Once the funds were collected and the building was restored the sikhs read their religious scripts. What's the problem? If the building was razed to ground (hint Babri Masjid) or surrounded by Pak Army (hint Golden temple) or the sikhs massacred (Babri, Golden temple aftermath) them you had reason to wine.
rani last time i checked the likes of Qazi hussain ahmed..... didnt even get elected to national assembly. let alone becoming ministers. NEVER has Pakistani public elected a religious fundamentalist govt to power.... and its quite the opposite in the secularistice india today isnt it?
where likes of thackray and advani boast of being part of the govt. Where the decisions they make determine the fate of minorities. Please read the biased commission reports against muslims in the politics section. im sure similar reports exist for sikh persecution exist as well.... where the army is shown as victims of sikh brutality and police is shown as helpless chickens who killed sikh mobs cos "sikh mobs got furious upon seeing the police". You, yourself have complained about the bias and discrimination showed for sikhs and the ppl responsible for such acts still run around free causing havoc for other minorities.... but as long as sikhs are not being butchered, you got no problem with it. well as you sow so shall you reap..... God has a funny way of balancing things.
[This message has been edited by mundyaa (edited August 22, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Rational:
Rani,
Have you ever been to Pakistan? Please answer in yes and no.
My whole family is from Pakistan ....now nobody lives there anymore ...I have no place or reason to visit, maybe one day I will visit out of curiosity.
I have been to India a bunch of times and can have an opinion based on "personal experiences". In your case you have to refer to someone who knows someone whose some relative once visited Pakistan.
Actually the eye surgeon I am talking about lives in North America and has gone to Pakistan for past several years to set-up eye operation camps for poor or needy people, he is very well known....does lot of charitable work in Pakistan as well as in India.
I regularly contribute to the masjids in India and educational programs for the muslims in India. What does that mean?
Every year thousands of Sikhs from accross the border come to Punjab for their religious pilgrimage. They are given a VIP treatment by the Pakistani authorities. So get your head out of the sand and try looking at facts for a change
[/quote]
I have talked to several pilgrims, cramming 700 hundred in one train with no room to breath is not called VIP treatment...
Rational..there are no Sikhs left in Pakistan,only a few were found among tribal people that is why gurdwaras are empty.
The point I am trying to make is that Pakistanis can only find faults with Indian secularism, if they are willing to practice it, otherwise they have no moral right to point finger at Indians regardless of what we call ourselves.
Rani, shut the hell up we have the right to do whatever the hell we want.
Originally posted by Rational:
BK, I do agree with you and I don't at the same time. i think you are right when you say that muslims are more protective about their religion. Yes we are and we are proud to be so. The reason is simple. Islam commands all of us to love Allah and the prophet more than we love our parents. Only then our religion is complete.
It is true about prophet Mohammad (Muslims wont bother to protest about play on Jesus though they consider him prophet or put a fatwa on writer, that is resopnsibility of Christians). As far as Allah is concerned, they cant care less. If I write a pamphlet tomorrow that there is no god, Muslims dont care. Now when I say there is no god, I am calling all prophets including Mohammad as fake. But Muslims are not offended by such literature.
The only literature Muslims are ofended by is Mohammad, not god or any other people considered as prophet by islam.
I define civilised as not being convinced anybody who does not follow your religion is destined for hell, not try to convert other people to your religion by force or bribery or propaganda etc.,
Thank you for your comments Andhra. By this definition then, a person who wrote a play, (hypothetically) about Baba Guru Nanak being sodomized would be civilised?
Depends on if it is true or not!
If true these kind of things about great people usually come out.
Things like marrying children
[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Xtreme
Hindutava followers can say whatever they want they can never impose it on other Indians. ..their comments are very similar to bible thumping southern in US. You can go to any Indian city and you will see Gurdawaras and Masjids all over the city full of followers. Can I say the same about Pakistan..I don't think so.
One of our friends brother a Sikh (eye sergeon) regularly holds eye camps in Pakistan. He recently collected funds and repaired a historical gurdwara in Pakistan -it was about to fall and held first reading of Gurugaranth Sahib in the gurudwara since Partition.
Your comments will hold lot more weight if you valued secularism and try to implement it in Pakistan.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 22, 2000).]**
[/quote]
Rano dear!
We are neither seculars nor want to be. We are Muslims and the minorities never suffer under Muslims rule.
Your Gurudawars are managed by Sikhs themsleves. We don't like to "utilize" the presense of Gurudawaras for the point of view of delveloping our tourisim industry.
I have visited your Gurdawara at Nankana Sahid and I enjoyed the hopitality of Giyani Partab Singh (a red-cheeked kind old Sardar). It was he who told me that the Gurudawara owns about 50 "Murraba" land(1 Murrabba = 25 Acres) in the same vicinity and the whole income is suspposed to be spent on Gurudawar. If Rich (Sikh) people wish to donate something for any of their own Holy Shrines, it would be 100% for their own spiritual satisfaction, I believe. It was a time when Nizam of Hyderabad was the sole care-taker of Muslim's two Holy Shrines in Mecca and Madina (Saudi Arabia). My brother (accompanying me) had $. 500/- , given to him by one of his Canadian-national Sikh friends to donate to the Gurudawara (that was the purpose of our visit). Sardar Partab Singh refused to take it in his hand and suggested to put in a locked Safe inside the small room where the Holy Book was placed in a cradle. It was my first chance (and probabely the last!) to have a look to see those colourful portraits of your Gurus, one of them of was the Horse Riding, Sword-man, with hawk on his left arm, Guru Govind Singh. It was somewhere back in 1987/88 and I still remember how Sardar JI ordered me with a kind smile on his face," Chunni le' kurdiye sir te" when we reached him crossing the terribly hot Mosaic floor (larger than any Mosque I ever visited) bare footed. He also confirmed from my brother if he had any ciggeratte packet in his pocket. Wearing a sky blue pyjama and a long kurta with a contrast of Navy Blue turban, Sardar ji presented us some metal "Kadas" and extra small wooden combs with small sign of "Karpan" engraved on it, requesting my brother to give it to the doners.......
I can assure you Rano what happend in Golden Temple in your secular India, will never happen in Nankana Sahib or Punja Sahib in Muslim Pakistan.
By the way Rano, though you don't reply to many of my questions, do you know who laid the foundation stone of your Golden Temple?
Sofia,
My name is **Rani not Rano **for future please remember that...it is bad manners to distorts people's name. If your intent is to have discussion with somebody, please have the decency to be courteous.
The foundation stone of Harminder Sahib (Golden Temple) was laid by Mian Mir. It is greatness of Guru Arjan Dev Ji that he honored a person from other religion, this was to show and teach the followers that all human beings are children of same God nobody is superior or inferior and all religions lead to same one God. This is true toleration and equality. I hope you learn from it.
[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Sofia,
My name is **Rani not Rano **for future please remember that...it is bad manners to distorts people's name. If your intent is to have discussion with somebody, please have the decency to be courteous.
The foundation stone of Harminder Sahib (Golden Temple) was laid by Mian Mir. It is greatness of Guru Arjan Dev Ji that he honored a person from other religion, this was to show and teach the followers that all human beings are children of same God nobody is superior or inferior and all religions lead to same one God. This is true toleration and equality. I hope you learn from it. **
[/quote]
Miss Rani Kaur!
My name is Sophia and not Sofia. Please remember it for your future! You know very well that it is a bad manner to distort other's names. If you ever intent to discuss something with me, try to be decent if you can.
We don't believe in being children of God. God is far above from such sort of re-production! So we don't believe you have any thing to "teach" us.
You symbol of Indian foolishness!