Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

When i was kid, my brother use to say me that Almighty Allah SWT is on the 'Arsh (heaven)' and watching all universe through there. I also, use to say that Almighty Allah SWT is on the 'Arsh (heaven)', whoever asked me. When i came to 5th Standard i read this in a book "Agar to Gunnah pr amada hy to aisi Jagha talaash kr jahan Khuda Na ho" If u r agree to do sin then find a place where there is no God".

I wondered if Almighty Allah SWT is on the 'Arsh' then why it is written in the book that Almighty Allah is everywhere? Then i came to these two Surah (1) Surah Yunus 10:3 and (2) Surah Taha 20:5

[quote]

Indeed, your Lord is Allah , who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne, arranging the matter [of His creation]. There is no intercessor except after His permission. That is Allah , your Lord, so worship Him. Then will you not remember?

*تمہارا پروردگار تو خدا ہی ہے جس نے آسمان اور زمین چھ دن میں بنائے پھر عرش (تخت شاہی) پر قائم ہوا وہی ہر ایک کا انتظام کرتا ہے۔ کوئی (اس کے پاس) اس کا اذن حاصل کیے بغیر کسی کی سفارش نہیں کرسکتا، یہی خدا تمہارا پروردگار ہے تو اسی کی عبادت کرو۔ بھلا تم غور کیوں نہیں کرتے *

[/quote]

Allah's Message was and is not all smooth and agreeable. The first thing is to convince us of our sin and wrongdoing, and warn us of our danger. If we have Faith, we then learn what a high rank we obtain in the sight of Almighty Allah SWT, through His glorious Truth, which makes us pure and free.

Istawa, **with the preposition **ila after it, means "to design, to set oneself to execute a design": "His design comprehended the heaven," to emphasise the fact that the heavens were not eternal or co-eternal with Him but were a part of His design, and in a sense, as they appear to man subjectively, a complement to the creation of man's earth. With the preposition ala after it, as here and at many places in the same book, the meaning seems to be literally, "to mount or ascend," and figuratively "to be firmly established, to sit firm and unshaken, beyond question". The Throne of authority represents symbolically many ideas: e.g, (1) *that Almighty Allah SWT is high above all His Creation *(2) *that He regulates and governs it as a king does, whose authority is unquestionably recognised *(3) that He is not, therefore, like the gods of Greece and paganism, who were imagined to be in a world apart, careless of mankind, or jealous of mankind, but on the contrary, He (4) *disposes of their affairs and all affairs continuously and with justice *(5) that the authority of His prophets, ministers, and messengers is derived from Him, and such intercession as they can make is by His will and permission.

[quote]

The Most Merciful [who is] above the Throne established.
(یعنی خدائے) رحمٰن جس نےعرش پر قرار پکڑا)

[/quote]

If things seem to be wrong in our imperfect vision on this earth, we must remember that Almighty Allah SWT, Who encompasses all Creation and sits on the throne of Grace and Mercy, is in command, and our Faith tells us that all must be right. Allah's authority is not like an authority on earth, which may be questioned, or which may not last. His authority is 'firmly established'.

I don't remember who wrote "find that place where there is no God to commit a sin", but the above surah cleary explained the reason why not to commit sin and how to avoid ourself from commiting sin.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

"sits on the throne"? Where does it say that?

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

Peace hareem01,

Surah Taha verse No. 5.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

He is everywhere...If you can't see him, go and search. One day you'll find him.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?


that simply means Allah doesn't exist - say hello to belief of atheists disguised under the umbrella of "traditionalism". But don't worry, they will come up with plenty of "arguments" to explain the un-explainable.

Bro, it's very simple, it is in our fitrah to believe that Allah is up above but His knowledge is everywhere. We point our hands up for dua'as. We raise our index fingers when reciting shahadah. You can tell your kids that Allah is above the heavens but He is aware of everything we do. And please don't let someone tell you that we don't ask "where is Allah". Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam) asked this question to a slave girl reported by Imam Muslim in his saheeh. Maybe these Muslims know better than the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam).

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

I think you are taking Hareem's comment totally out of context. She never said that Allah doesn't exist nor she ever implied that in any of her comments.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

I can take him down easily but I'm just going to ignore him.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

sheesh, use your philanthropy skills.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

Shafi’i

In his commentary on SaḤīḤ Muslim, the Shafi imam, Sharaf al-Dīn al-Nawawī (d. 676 /1277; Nawā, Syria) discussed the implications of the above Ḥadīth:
This is one of the Ḥadīth which concerns the attributes [of Allāh]. There are two schools of thought (madhhab) in regards to such Ḥadīth both of which I have discussed repeatedly in the chapter Kitāb al-Īmān. The first madhhab is to believe in it without concerning oneself with its meaning, while maintaining categorically that Allāh, hallowed is He, does not resemble anything, and maintaining that He transcends the attributes of created things [which madhhab is called tafwīḍ ]. The second madhhab is to interpret (ta’wīl) the Ḥadīth in a way which is commensurate with His greatness. Those who prefer to interpret said that in the present Ḥadīth the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] meant to examine her to see whether or not she was one of those who worships idols on the earth, or one of those who maintain the uniqueness of Allāh (muwahhidūn) and believe that the creator, the disposer, and the one who effects [all things] is Allāh, no one else. For when [those who maintain the uniqueness of Allāh (muwahhidūn)] supplicate [the Transcendent God], they turn [their attention, or their hands] to the sky just as when they pray [the ritual prayer] they face the Ka‘bah; yet, that does not mean that Allāh is located in the sky just as it does not mean that He is located in the direction of the Ka‘bah. Rather, they turn [their attention, or their hands] to the sky because the sky is the prescribed direction of orientation (al-Qiblah), just as the Ka‘bah is the prescribed direction of orientation (al-Qiblah) for the ritual prayer (al-Salāh). So when she said that He is in the sky, it was known that she was one of those who maintain the uniqueness of Allāh (muwahhid), and not a worshipper of idols.

Maliki

After saying the above al-Nawawī quoted another great authority of Islām, the Maliki muḤaddith and imam al-Qāḍī ‘Iyāḍ (544 / 1149; Marākish), the author of many important works in the science of Ḥadīth, including a commentary on SaḤīḤ Muslim:
There is no disagreement whatsoever among any of the Muslims–their fuqahā’ (experts on the rules of the Sharī‘ah), their muhaddithūn (experts in the science of Ḥadīth transmission, and criticism), their mutakallimūn (ulamā’ of Kalām; that is, dialectic theology), their polemicists (naḍhār) and their ordinary followers (muqallid)–that the outward meaning of those texts [from either the Sunnah or the Qur‘ān] in which it is mentioned that Allāh is in the sky is not meant [literally]; for example, the words of the Exalted: “Are you assured that He who is in the sky will not cause the earth to swallow you up?” These and similar texts [which mention that Allāh is in the sky or seem to imply that] are not to be taken literally (‘alā ḍāhirihī ); rather, according to them all [that is, all the Muslims and the experts of every field of the Sharī‘ah as mentioned above], they are to be taken idiomatically (mu’awwalan). So whoever from among the muḤaddithūn, and the fuqahā’, and the mutakallimūn permitted using the term of the direction up (jihat alfauq) [in relation to Allāh] without presuming any limit, or without conceiving how [He might be in the direction up] interpreted in the sky to mean over the sky [that is, He whose authority, or power is over the sky]. Whereas, whoever from among the great majority of polemicists (naḍhār), and mutakallimūn, and the people of transcendence (asḤāb al-tanzīh) denied that He had any limit, and maintained the impossibility of ascribing any direction to Him, hallowed is He, they interpreted the texts in a variety of ways according to the requirement of the context. They mentioned interpretations similar to what we mentioned previously [that is, in his commentary which, however, al-Nawawī did not cite]. I wish I knew what exactly it is that has united the People of the Sunnah and the Truth, all of them, on the necessity of refraining from thinking about the reality (al-dhāt) [of Allāh], as they were ordered [by the Lawgiver], and the necessity to keep silent about what perplexes their intelligences (al-‘aql), and to prohibit explaining how (al-takyīf) [is the divine reality], and in what form (al-tashkīl) [is it]. They kept silent and refrained from [thinking or speaking about the divine reality (al-dhāt)] not because they had any doubt about the Existent, or about His existence [but because they recognized that His reality is beyond comprehension]. Their silence does not impair their belief in His uniqueness (al-tauḤīd); rather, it is the essence of al-tauḤīd [for the recognition that He is other than whatever we imagine Him to be is a requirement of the transcendent perspective of al-tauḤīd]. Some of the ulamā’ overlooked [some of the strict requirements of the divine transcendence] and indulged in using the term direction (al-jihah) [in relation to Allāh] fearing to take unwarranted liberties [in interpreting the revealed texts of the Sharī‘ah]. But it raises the question of whether or not there is any difference between explaining how (al-takyīf) [is the divine reality] and between ascribing directions to Him. No doubt, the course which offers salvation from deviation for those for whom Allāh has ordained success is to restrict oneself to using such terms as the Law (al-Shar‘) itself has used like “and He enforces His will over (fauqa) His slaves,” or the words “then He subdued [or took control; istawā] of the Throne,” while understanding such terms with reference to the verse which comprehends the universal principle of transcendence (tanzīh); namely, His word: “Nothing is like Him.” For reason can not accept anything which contravenes this universal principle of the Law.

Hanafi

Mulla ‘Alī al-Qārī (d. 1014 h. / 1606; Makkah), a Hanafi faqīh, a muḤaddith , an expert in language, a mutakallim, and a prolific author of important Islamic texts including the commentary on Abū Ḥanīfah’s al-Fiqh al-Akbar, which is a work on belief, and a ten-volume commentary on the Ḥadīth compilation Mishkāt al-MaSābīḤ.

Commenting on the words reported from the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] “Where is Allāh?” in the Ḥadīth al-Jāriyah, he wrote:
In another version of the same Ḥadīth there is the wording: “Where is your Lord?” It means that where is His place of decision, and His order, and the place where His dominion and power are manifested. {She said: “In the sky.”} Al-Qāḍī ‘Iyāḍ] said: “The meaning is that His command and His prohibition comes from the direction of the sky. The Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] did not mean to ask her about the whereabouts of Allāh, since He transcends such an attribute as place, just as He transcends the attribute of time. Rather, the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] intended to find out by his question to her whether she was a monotheist declaring the uniqueness of Allāh (muwaḤḤidah), or whether she was a polytheist (mushrikah) because the Arabs were worshipping idols. Each clan amongst them had its special idol, which it worshipped and revered. Perhaps some of their ignorant and stupid people did not recognize any god whatsoever; therefore, the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] wanted to ascertain what she worshipped. So when she said “in the sky,” or, as in another version, she pointed to the sky, he [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] understood that she was a monotheist declaring the uniqueness of Allāh. In other words , he wanted to preclude the gods on earth; that is, the idols. He did not mean to imply that He occupies a place in the sky, far-removed is Allāh from what the transgressors ascribe to Him in their insolence. Moreover, the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] had been ordered to speak to the people according to the extent of their intelligence, and to guide them to the truth in way which was appropriate to their understanding. So when the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] found that she believed that the one who deserves to be worshipped is the God who implements His purpose from the sky to the earth, not the gods which the pagans worshipped, he was satisfied with that much from her, and he [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] did not charge her with sheer unity (Sirf al-tauḤīd )–the principle of transcendence (Ḥaqīqat al-tanzīh) Some [of the ulamā’] have said that the meaning is that His order and prohibition, His mercy and revelation comes from the sky. In that case, this Ḥadīth is similar [in its implications] to His word [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam]: “Do you feel secure from Him who is in the sky…?” Furthermore, in some other [authentic] versions of this Ḥadīth it comes that this girl was dumb, and for that reason [Imām] al-Shafi‘ī [d. 204 / 820; Cairo] permitted the freeing of a slave even if he is dumb. In such case, the words in the Ḥadīth “She said, ‘In the sky.’” mean that she pointed to the sky [since she could not speak, obviously; and this is just what has come expressly in another version of the Ḥadīth: “She pointed to the sky.”]

[Mulla ‘Alī al-Qārī, Mirqāt al-MafātīḤ (Beirut, ), p. 454; vol. 6]
http://www.almeshkat.com/books/open....t=22&book=2190 - see page 412 in the third Word document

Hanbali

Abū ’l-Faraj Ibn al-Jauzī (d. 597 /1201; Baghdad) was a veritable polymath, a historian of encyclopedic stature, a renown muḤaddith, a commentator of the Qur‘ān, and one of the most prolific authors of Islām–according to the contemporary expert of historical biography Khair al-Dīn al-Ziriklī (1396 / 1976; Cairo), who is the author of the biographical dictionary al-A‘lām, Ibn al-Jauzī wrote about three hundred books. Ibn Rajab al-Ḥanbalī (795 / 1393; Damascus) in his Dhail Ṭabaqāt al-Ḥanābalah, in which he documented the histories and assessed the importance of the Hanbali ulamā’, proclaimed Ibn al-Jauzī to be “the master (shaikh) of his time, the imam of his age.” Imām Shams al-Dīn al-Dhahabī (d.748 / 1348; Damascus) lavished praise on him in his encyclopaedia of biography, Siyar A‘lām al-Nubalā’declaring him “ the Shaikh, the Imam, the Scholar (al-‘alāmah), the Ḥāfiḍh, the Commentator of the Qur‘ān (al-mufassir), the Shaikh of Islām, the Pride of Iraq.”

Ibn al-Jauzī also interpreted the Ḥadīth al-Jāriyah in an idiomatic way. In his Daf‘ Shubah al-Tashbīh he wrote:
“The ulamā’ have realised that the sky and the earth do not contain Allāh, hallowed is He; nor does space reach Him. [As for the Ḥadīth] the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] understood from her sign that she revered the Creator.”
[Daf‘ Shubah al-Tashbīh, p. 43 ]

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

lol

According to Allahhkabanda's understanding Baitullah (Allah's house) is where Allah lives.

Allah kay banday
psyah has given the interpretation of the hadith you quoted and according to 4 schools it cannot be taken literally. So your myth busted.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

right, thats why the idea about someone being gone to Allah or taken to Allah cannot be taken as literally(physical travel). So the idea of physical travel towards Allah is absurd.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

Bismillah


feel free and I think this forum has an option to ban/ignore a user. Maybe you can also request them to make a new button which blocks only the "wahabis". Please don't waste your time to refute me, I'm nobody but you can certainly pay heed to words of Allah, His Messenger (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam) and hundreds of statements from the Salaf. You can refute them all you want!


that's exactly what it implies. If Allah is not in His creation, neither He is outside of His creation then where is He!!? Such a belief clearly means that He is just a imaginative figure or He doesn't exist. What does this statement even mean? From the perspective of creation, there are only two realms 1) inside creation and 2) outside of creation. If something is in neither of them then it means it's no where which implies non-existent. There is not third way to explain it no matter how you twist it around.

Of course, hareem will bring out his bazooka and start firing the missile which screams out "he's a wahabi, don't listen to wahabis". But I am going to quote a scholar for our benefit insha'Allah. Imam al-Dahahbi says in his al-Uluww, a book dedicated to this subject quoting hundreds of textual statements to prove that Allah is above the throne separate from His creation:
As for the third saying which came about finally, then it said that "Allah is not in a place, neither outside of it, nor above His Throne, neither connected to the creation nor disconnected from it, His Holy Essence is neither spatially confined nor distinct from His creation, neither is He in any directions nor outside of directions, neither this nor that, neither this nor that..."

This is something which neither makes sense nor can be understood! Not to mention the opposition to the ayaat and narrations that is found within this saying. So flee with your deen and beware of the views of the Mutakallimeen (speculative-theological rhetoricians) [al-'Uluww, p.268]

and indeed Allah knows best

@pysch

bro, I'll reply to your post later, insha'Allah but please quote something from the Salaf, the first three generations. It is well known that some of the latter scholars fell into error so quoting them doesn't prove your point.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

Peace,

This is a general discussion forum where everyone regardless to a specific sectors have freedom to express theirs views under the prescribed rules and policy of this forum. Therefore, no need to get in personal with other members and stick to the topic please.

:jazak:

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

Peace kchughtai

Physical travel to the ends of the universe and even to metaphysical realms such as paradise are not included in this exception because all of these are part of the creation of Allah (SWT) ... I thought I better end this hear before you try taking it in another direction.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

God is inside yourself. Why can't you people just tell the kids that truth.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

Peace AllahkaBanda

I'm not proving my point I'm merely providing evidence to support my stance. It is already understood that you don't like the reference of the scholars I choose ... to avoid a long argument ... about salaf ... you say that you would rather look to the salaf than the latter scholars ... on that basis I would rather look to the latter scholars than you. I believe the latters scholars interpreted the statements for us that previously didn't need interpreting because classical Arabic was the norm and actions were written down as seen and little attempt of foresight was really given to how they would be seen by later generations. This is not necessarily a weakness ... because Allah (SWT) has sent rightly guided people to help us unravel those concepts.

What I am actually surprised about is that for a person who avoid ta'weel you seem to be doing a lot of it with the concept of Allah is neither in His Creation nor out of it ... To say that this means the non-existence of Allah (SWT) is poor high school reasoning. This statement is made under the precondition that Allah (SWT) exists, in a meaning other than what is meant by our existence. It is also made to show that Allah (SWT) is closer to us than our jugulars, but further away from us that He is High outside His Creation over the Arsh. It is a statement that precludes all three statements in one.

To us this should translate to mean "Allah certainly Exists, but his State is unknown to us and since He cannot be contained He cannot form part of His Creation or pinpointed, and at the same time He cannot be distant from us that there is suggestion of any independence from Him - that all things are dependent on Him. Since we are in and amongst and part of His Creation we can only conclude that the Nature of Allah (SWT) if this is even the correct term to use is not just unknown to us but it is impossible to be known by us" ... This is what hareem01's statement means ... As you may be aware it is a formulation from the 'Ashari 'aqeedah.

The Maturidis will simply say nothing about interpreting the verses in question ...

Those who say the hadith is to be understood literally have indulged in ta'weel ... those who undertake ta'weel to make it suit the global understanding making it fit the Grace and Greatness of Allah (SWT) I believe had done a better ta'weel ... those who say we don't understand it and we don't have to ... are the ones who have not done ta'weel.

If you want to be amongst those who don't do ta'weel then you should refrain from inferring that the meaning of the hadith in question is literal.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

And how did you come to such conclusion, O Wise One?

Where did I say that?

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

Allah isn't everywhere. If He was everywhere, then this would mean He's in the chair I'm sitting on and the water I drink. So, that's not possible.

But, He's All-Aware of everything. Not a leaf sways in this universe, except by His permission. If you mean it in this sense that He's everywhere, then Yes, He's everywhere.

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

(and then He rose over (Istawa) the Throne) the people had several conflicting opinions over its meaning. However, we follow the way that our righteous predecessors took in this regard, such as Malik, Al-Awzai, Ath-Thawri, Al-Layth bin Sad, Ash-Shafi`i, Ahmad, Ishaq bin Rahwayh and the rest of the scholars of Islam, in past and present times. Surely, we accept the apparent meaning of, Al-Istawa, without discussing its true essence, equating it (with the attributes of the creation), or altering or denying it (in any way or form). We also believe that the meaning that comes to those who equate Allah with the creation is to be rejected, for nothing is similar to Allah,
http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/7148/2/

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

this surely makes sense.

but it conflicts with the main Muslim ummah's beliefs... i.e

**1) if Allah is everywhere than where is Jesus?

2) where did Holy Prophet went on the Night of Journey(Miraj)?**

This gives a thought to review our beliefs...

Jazakallah