Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

[psyah]

Re: Is Allah above the Arsh or everywhere?

@AllahkaBanda

Bismillah

feel free and I think this forum has an option to ban/ignore a user. Maybe you can also request them to make a new button which blocks only the “wahabis”. Please don’t waste your time to refute me, I’m nobody but you can certainly pay heed to words of Allah, His Messenger (sal-allahu alayhi wa salaam) and hundreds of statements from the Salaf. You can refute them all you want!

that’s exactly what it implies. If Allah is not in His creation, neither He is outside of His creation then where is He!!? Such a belief clearly means that He is just a imaginative figure or He doesn’t exist. What does this statement even mean? From the perspective of creation, there are only two realms 1) inside creation and 2) outside of creation. If something is in neither of them then it means it’s no where which implies non-existent. There is not third way to explain it no matter how you twist it around.

Of course, hareem will bring out his bazooka and start firing the missile which screams out “he’s a wahabi, don’t listen to wahabis”. But I am going to quote a scholar for our benefit insha’Allah. Imam al-Dahahbi says in his al-Uluww, a book dedicated to this subject quoting hundreds of textual statements to prove that Allah is above the throne separate from His creation:
As for the third saying which came about finally, then it said that “Allah is not in a place, neither outside of it, nor above His Throne, neither connected to the creation nor disconnected from it, His Holy Essence is neither spatially confined nor distinct from His creation, neither is He in any directions nor outside of directions, neither this nor that, neither this nor that…”

This is something which neither makes sense nor can be understood! Not to mention the opposition to the ayaat and narrations that is found within this saying. So flee with your deen and beware of the views of the Mutakallimeen (speculative-theological rhetoricians) [al-'Uluww, p.268]

and indeed Allah knows best

@pysch

bro, I’ll reply to your post later, insha’Allah but please quote something from the Salaf, the first three generations. It is well known that some of the latter scholars fell into error so quoting them doesn’t prove your point.

Peace AllahkaBanda

I’m not proving my point I’m merely providing evidence to support my stance. It is already understood that you don’t like the reference of the scholars I choose … to avoid a long argument … about salaf … you say that you would rather look to the salaf than the latter scholars … on that basis I would rather look to the latter scholars than you. I believe the latters scholars interpreted the statements for us that previously didn’t need interpreting because classical Arabic was the norm and actions were written down as seen and little attempt of foresight was really given to how they would be seen by later generations. This is not necessarily a weakness … because Allah (SWT) has sent rightly guided people to help us unravel those concepts.

What I am actually surprised about is that for a person who avoid ta’weel you seem to be doing a lot of it with the concept of Allah is neither in His Creation nor out of it … To say that this means the non-existence of Allah (SWT) is poor high school reasoning. This statement is made under the precondition that Allah (SWT) exists, in a meaning other than what is meant by our existence. It is also made to show that Allah (SWT) is closer to us than our jugulars, but further away from us that He is High outside His Creation over the Arsh. It is a statement that precludes all three statements in one.

To us this should translate to mean “Allah certainly Exists, but his State is unknown to us and since He cannot be contained He cannot form part of His Creation or pinpointed, and at the same time He cannot be distant from us that there is suggestion of any independence from Him - that all things are dependent on Him. Since we are in and amongst and part of His Creation we can only conclude that the Nature of Allah (SWT) if this is even the correct term to use is not just unknown to us but it is impossible to be known by us” … This is what hareem01’s statement means … As you may be aware it is a formulation from the 'Ashari 'aqeedah.

The Maturidis will simply say nothing about interpreting the verses in question …

Those who say the hadith is to be understood literally have indulged in ta’weel … those who undertake ta’weel to make it suit the global understanding making it fit the Grace and Greatness of Allah (SWT) I believe had done a better ta’weel … those who say we don’t understand it and we don’t have to … are the ones who have not done ta’weel.

If you want to be amongst those who don’t do ta’weel then you should refrain from inferring that the meaning of the hadith in question is literal.