A fight for democracy/freedom takes courage and will. Iraqis don’t have it.
Insurgents are major league pussies (this word stood in other thread). Only fighting when they know devastating and personal retaliation won’t take place-like the slaughter of your village or the raping of your wife or sister. They care about their own power, they are not fighting for Iraq.
In Soviet Union, East Germany (even Iran) a largely unarmed population had the balls to stand up to overwhelming force and demand en masse an end to opression. It could be there for Iraqis as well, but the general majority won’t stand up to their oppressors: First Sadaam, now religious fascists in their own country.
Heavily fortified bases in Iraq. Predators,Satellites, paid informants and human intel keeping an eye on things. Artillery and daisy cutters if there’s a problem. US controls borders. Let them have a civil war. Let’s just call a fight a fight and duke it out-that’s what many here want anyway. Screw the whole democratic foothold in the M.E. philosophy. No rebuilding(no one cares).
Removing Sadaam was a great thing for the Iraqi people. If they are unwilling to recognize that and put huge pressure on the religious fascists in their country, then they should reap what they’ve sown.
Correct me if I'm wrong Storch, but nobody asked for Americas help, we got in their on our own. We should all know by now, that it was never about WMD's, democracy(because in true democracy, thats only going to bring anti-Americans in power), was never about a dictator(world is filled with such dictators), has nothing to do with war on terror(now an open secret). So please, before you start bashing Iraqi people, you might want to think again, how we got into this mess in the first place...
Heavily fortified bases in Iraq. Predators,Sattelites, paid informants and human intel keeping an eye on things. Artillery and daisy cutters if there's a problem.
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From the latest events it seems this kinda military hardware is just about the only friend the liberators have left in Iraq now. The humans think of them as persona non-grata.
I feel exactly what you feel buddy. There are moments in time where the people of a country have to either seize an opportunityor lose it for a century. If the Iraqi's could have put aside their anger, and engaged in a political process, they had an opportunity the likes of which many other countries have never experienced.
If the people of Iraq had managed to overthrow Saddam someday, undoubtely it would have been horificly bloody. Saddam and his sons would not have gone easily, and we would have been in the same place. If Saddam had been overthrown in a coup, it would have been another dictator. Either way a civil war would have been a very likely scenario.
I go back to a quote a while ago. "If the Americans leave we will eat each other.." And this is probably true. Sunni's could choose to be patient and engage in a political process. Shia have to realize that rebelious clerics who are so young that they have known nothing but a Saddam controlled Iraq have been weened on a culture so dysfunctional and violent that he knows nothing but hate.
There is a big part of me who says, Recognize the independent country of Kurdistan, and abandon the rest. The UN will stand around and pick their nose while the slaughter rages for years. Reopen discussions with whoever survives. But this would be wrong. Despite the lack of support, the best course is to pacify this fight, and accelerate the political solution.
I admit I was instigating a bit, but let's imagine from this day forward that Iraq in 4 years is peaceful, on the way to stability and relative prosperity.
Will their be gratitude for the investment in blood and $ by Americans? Not a chance.
It will be seen as an entitlement of the Iraqis or perhaps in time (probably a very short time) regional interpretation of history will claim that they gained it for themselves despite troublesome American involvement.
This was the biggest failing of the American Govt.: not knowing the mindset of the Iraqi people and frankly the greater Muslim mindset in political terms on the issue of American troops in conflict with Muslims.
Bush and Cheney should have been Guppies for a couple of years. Then they would have known that the political will of moderates in the region are not nearly strong enough or willful enough to stand up to religious fascism in the region.
had Bush and Cheny thought just like the majority of US participants on this board, they'd have learnt little.. .. the Iraqi insurgence is more nationalistic in nature.. the more you want it to be treated like a fanatic religious battle or a terrorist movement, the more out of touch you will be with the moderates in the region and reality.
The insurgency is a mix. If you ask an American on this board, not a single one of us would expect or want the US there a minute longer than needed to stabilize the country. Iraqi's, think we are there forever to steal the oil. There are no credible iraqi leaders, they have been wiped out. All Sistani knows is to hide in his hole when things get tough. Nobody wants their country invaded, but the Iraqi's have been led by violence for 30 years, and they are not skilled in leadership and compromise....
So the tough spot is, damned if you do, damned if you don't. If we cut and run, we invite attacks as being weak, and if we stay we are oppressors. Let's not even pretend that the UN is a viable choice, seeing charred bodies around the world, there is no country in their right mind who would commit enough troops to stabilize the country. If we leave, the whole of Iraq collapses int chaos, and the most violent will run the country.
So Guppies, what is the vote, and will you accept the consequences of your decisions?
I don't know why we go into such situations. I agree with Storch here. we got Saddam, now let's get out. Let the Shias kill the sunnis, the sunnis kill the kurds..what do we care?
We can still fly the B-52's and drop reminders of who we are every now and then, when one of these groups gets out of hand.
Well who gave the right to the Americans to dictate to the Iraqi people. Iraq is for the Iraqi people. It is not their nation not yours. Why dont you all go back home and deal with your neo-nazis and hitlers oh yeah and you KKK. Let the iraqis do what they want.
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*Originally posted by CM: *
Answer the simple question: Who gave you the right to dictate to them?
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Can't answer as the question starts from a false premise. No one here is trying to dictate to them. The only dictate is that the Iraqi people must have a real and legitimate right to choose.
Can't answer as the question starts from a false premise. No one here is trying to dictate to them. The only dictate is that the Iraqi people must have a real and legitimate right to choose.
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Exactly and who is the US to set a timetable or govern the country till then. After all the war was based on a lies. So you have no right to be there. Leave and let the Iraqis decide.
You are not listening, the U.S. leaving does give the majority of Iraqis a voice of what happens to the country, it only allows those who with guns to decide.
The U.S. is trying to create an Iraq that allows all Iraqis to have a voice rather than just those with a gun and one that protects all Iraqis, minority and majority sects alike.
The U.S. could easily befriend a thug like Saddam and put him in charge and give him the green light to use gunships to quell any violence without any reguard for innocent lives, but the past has presented a lesson and shown that is not the right action to take. Security must be assured in order for the people of Iraq to decide what they want. I am in the opinion that the best way to do this is through international cooperation, its time to bring forth a resolution that does just that.
I am in the opinion that the best way to do this is through international cooperation, its time to bring forth a resolution that does just that.
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The coalition seems to be crumbling already, who is left? Italy, UK and US. You really think the international community wants to come and clean up the mess or be fodder for target practice?
