Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Everyone is better than these lunatic ayatollahs..
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
I don't like Iran at all! This country is a theart to the world peace!
Yahan aap humnawai america hogayee!
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Wherever I may live, I choose not to bury my head in the send to be oblivious to reality…I prefer to call a spade a spade…
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
What really doesn't make sense is that if the US didn't fight those wars to stave off imperialiism, communism, facism, etc, there wouldn't be a big fancy house to live in - anywhere. Unless you suckled up to totalinarists, which it appears isn't so far fetched.
My religion teaches me that if the big fancy home and cars come at a price of someone's life, then it's no different than murder...
If competition and difference in way of living or ideology drives me to kill, maim and murder, then I am no different than a murderer...
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Wherever I may live, I choose not to bury my head in the send to be oblivious to reality...I prefer to call a spade a spade...
hahahahah
Nice. Do your part by reaping the cultural benefits, and take advantage of the Freedom of Speech. Nice. Then, you distinguish me as a "native" (even though even my father was but a child when the Bombs were dropped), while you wash your hands of any involvement by virtue of, presumably, not being a "native".
You have parsed that pretty well for yourself. A real man of principal. HA!
But back to the point. During the cold war, we had a lot of time to think about nuclear exchanges. (I grew up diving under desks as a child being told that Russian incoming missles could not harm us if we held our hands behind our heads and bent over.) The West worked through all of the scenarios where nukes could possibly be used, and we determined that they are damn near unusable.
If Iran ever launched a weapon, it would be vaporized within an hour. So Iran is sacrificing it's economy with millions of baby boomers in their 20's out of work to build a weapon that is unusable. A nuke really brings them no advantage in the world. And defiance of the rest of the world will cost them dearly, as the rest of the world has determined that the more nukes are available, the more likely one is to be stolen and used without the controls of a society. (see chlorine attacks in Iraq).
The US has been successful at deterring many countries from building nukes and contributing to the chaos. Certainly Taiwan, Japan, South Korea all have natural enemies, and the technical ability to build a bomb, but they have lived under the protection of the US nuclear umbrella, and have not pursued nukes. The Gulf States could certainly fund a program, but have not. How long do you think it will take the Saudis to develop a Sunni Bomb if the Shia get one? Libya and South Africa gave up programs because of international pressure, so should Iran.
If Muslims want to be important they should educate their masses, work hard economically, and have good relations with the rest of the world. That will bring them power and parity, not possessing a weapon that may trigger a conflict. Are the people of Pakistan and India safer or less safe because they have nukes? Safer from invasion, but less safe due to misunderstandings and mistakes. And the consequences of mistakes are in the millions of lives. Your lives, and your families lives. Today a bomb brings you pride. 20 years from now when the thrill is gone, it will bring you worry.
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
If Muslims want to be important they should educate their masses, work hard economically, and have good relations with the rest of the world. That will bring them power and parity, not possessing a weapon that may trigger a conflict. Are the people of Pakistan and India safer or less safe because they have nukes? Safer from invasion, but less safe due to misunderstandings and mistakes. And the consequences of mistakes are in the millions of lives. Your lives, and your families lives. Today a bomb brings you pride. 20 years from now when the thrill is gone, it will bring you worry.
Janaab OG saab, Muslims don't want to be important they just want to be left alone is all. thats a separate debate. I jumped in here because of the above quoted paragraph. One thing to remember is that our hand was forced to get to the nukes.
We had no desire to get them and we weren't the ones to start the race for nukes. The case made for getting nukes was that our very survival was at stake--a case well borne out by statements coming from India when "Buddha smiled" in 1974 and again in 1998. For us (Pakistanis) survival comes first before education and before anything else, and the nukes ensure that for us the threat of MAD because of misundertandings not withstanding.
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
^^ My real point is that the world has wavered on Non-Proliferation, and it makes the possibility of a nuclear exchange far more likely. Nukes are the ultimate chaos theory. Too many of them and someone is bound to use one.... Pakistan and India have had what, three wars? Now they are exactly the countries that should have the most deadly weapons, countries that have no concept of negociating peace, and live for only total victory. Oh great. Good thinking there.
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
^^ My real point is that the world has wavered on Non-Proliferation, and it makes the possibility of a nuclear exchange far more likely. Nukes are the ultimate chaos theory. Too many of them and someone is bound to use one.... Pakistan and India have had what, three wars? Now they are exactly the countries that should have the most deadly weapons, countries that have no concept of negociating peace, and live for only total victory. Oh great. Good thinking there.
So what is to be done now? Would you expect Iran to just sit quietly in a disadvantaged position vis a vis its percieved enemy Israel and/or the US? If non-poliferation is to get anywhere, it should start with those who started it all in the Middle East ie Israel. Otherwise no matter how noble the goal, no ones going to buy it and people will work on their little WMDs justifying it as insurance for thier existance.
In the Pakistan India context, I would fall back to a classic cold war argument...how many conflicts have we had since we got nukes? On the contrary hasn't it brought the two sides back to the negotiation table? Yes yes its painfully slow with no real results but talks are taking place at least.
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
In the Pakistan India context, I would fall back to a classic cold war argument...how many conflicts have we had since we got nukes? On the contrary hasn't it brought the two sides back to the negotiation table? Yes yes its painfully slow with no real results but talks are taking place at least.
In the Cold War context, we had a stable democracy and a stable totalitarian government. There was also very little proliferation. We can't say the same re: the Pakstian/India context. Talks also took place during Cold War but little to diminish the threat of some type of escalation - by design or not.
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
In the Cold War context, we had a stable democracy and a stable totalinarian government. There was also very little proliferation. We can't say the same re: the Pakstian/India context. Talks also took place during Cold War but little to diminish the threat of some type of escalation - by design or not.
My point still stands re conflicts since acquiring nukes, talks and negotiations. BTW don't you think the SALT agreement was quite a big achievement for its time?
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Yes, SALT was big. But the chances remain higher in Pakistan/India case for either a) radicals gain control, b) proliferation and c)accidental launching of nukes.
In Cold War scenario, USSR couldn't afford to keep up with US. What happens if the same thing occurs w/Pakistan?
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Israel? If any country in the entire world had a legitimate need for nukes it is Israel. A little spit of sand that has been surrounded and attacked by neighbors three times in 50 years? Imagine Pakistan completely surrounded by five enemies like India on all sides whose avowed purpose in life is to push all Pakistanis into the sea. Then you would need some nukes.
If all surrounding arab nations signed a non-aggression treaty acknowledging Israel's right to exist, maybe you could convince me to disarm Israel. Think that will happen?
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Israel? If any country in the entire world had a legitimate need for nukes it is Israel. A little spit of sand that has been surrounded and attacked by neighbors three times in 50 years? Imagine Pakistan completely surrounded by five enemies like India on all sides whose avowed purpose in life is to push all Pakistanis into the sea. Then you would need some nukes.
If all surrounding arab nations signed a non-aggression treaty acknowledging Israel's right to exist, maybe you could convince me to disarm Israel. Think that will happen?
Well what happened to the US nuclear Umbrella here? Besides Israel has enough of a conventional edge to take on its neighbours in open war and that has been ensured by suppliers of weaponry as well as demonstrated by Israel in wars past. But if your position is Israel can have nukes and others can't then you can kiss any form of non poliferation good bye. Stop the pretension and just side with your little boy in the middle east and ask can Iranians (or anyone else for that matter) be stopped by force.
In Pakistan's case once again, we got a nuke because THEY got a nuke, otherwise there would have been no worries.
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Yes, SALT was big. But the chances remain higher in Pakistan/India case for either a) radicals gain control, b) proliferation and c)accidental launching of nukes.
In Cold War scenario, USSR couldn't afford to keep up with US. What happens if the same thing occurs w/Pakistan?
What happens if India can't keep up? :) We're out for minimal credible deterrence not to wipe India off the map so no races and no keeping up there. As for your other points, a) radicals are getting less and less popular by the day so no danger of them taking over. b) Proliferation has been stopped and c) There is no chance of accidental launches unless there is open warfare and India threatens the integrity/existance of Pak.
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Israel? If any country in the entire world had a legitimate need for nukes it is Israel. A little spit of sand that has been surrounded and attacked by neighbors three times in 50 years? Imagine Pakistan completely surrounded by five enemies like India on all sides whose avowed purpose in life is to push all Pakistanis into the sea. Then you would need some nukes.
If all surrounding arab nations signed a non-aggression treaty acknowledging Israel's right to exist, maybe you could convince me to disarm Israel. Think that will happen?
That little spit in the sand you call Israel, is an illegitimate state to begin with...It was created by displacing a people, killing them and evicting them based on ideology...That in layman's term means occupation and the UN was created just for this precise purpose, to prevent occupation of one ideology by another by means of force...Israel continues to flaunt international laws day in and day out without a regard for any authority because sugar daddy Uncle Sam is behind to make sure that no one raises an issue...
Why is it that any resolution that is raised against this squatter state is suppressed by the US using its veto?
The nations which 'attacked' Israel, acted in force to stop the aggression of one people against another which in turn was supported by the US...If US supports such aggressions against another people, then why was Iraq attacked in the first Gulf war? Because of selective morality where it suits the purpose...
And who is to guarantee the safety of the nations surrounding Israel given its violent birth and violent existence? Israel's indiscriminate bombardment of civilian facilities and infrastructure in Lebanon is a glimpse and proof of why it is the most dire need of the Iranian government to possess a nuclear weapon for the safety of its populace...
And no self respecting government should ever have to cave in to any pressure when it comes to the the survival and safety of its citizens and Iran has every right to pursue that...
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
I don't like Iran at all! This country is a theart to the world peace!
And you are a threat to any semblance of sensibility...
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Iran in my view just wants to become a latent nuclear power and not a full-fleged one, just to reach a certain threshold without actually utilizing it for the other purpose. So yes there is cause for suspicion. Having said that, this isn't something out of ordinary, there are so many countries that fall in that category but certainly Iran knows how to irk the US.
As for the nuclear free Middle East, thats not going to happen anytime soon. As long as Israel is sitting on a fairly advanced nuclear weapons programme and is supported by the US, this will remain a distant dream. Egypt and Libya might be off the scene but other GCC states are now exploring the nuclear option. Its a vicious cycle...
Re: Iran Offers The Ownership Of Its Nuclear Facilities
Iran in my view just wants to become a latent nuclear power and not a full-fleged one, just to reach a certain threshold without actually utilizing it for the other purpose. So yes there is cause for suspicion. Having said that, this isn't something out of ordinary, there are so many countries that fall in that category but certainly Iran knows how to irk the US.
As for the nuclear free Middle East, thats not going to happen anytime soon. As long as Israel is sitting on a fairly advanced nuclear weapons programme and is supported by the US, this will remain a distant dream. Egypt and Libya might be off the scene but other GCC states are now exploring the nuclear option. Its a vicious cycle...
Other GCC states may be looking at the nuclear option wrt energy generation but never ever will they be "allowed" to consider it for weaponisation or anything else.
Also wrt Iran, can we really be sure their efforts are just to be a latent power? Latency will not serve them unless they expect to develop enough expertise to start exporting the technology or become members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group. Even if Latent, it still takes a lot of time and effort to become a real nuclear power, and to demonstrate that one has to do a test explosion, both to show the world as well as for siesmic data /yeild testing etc.