Intergrate?, Isolate?, or Communicate?

Which way should the Muslims turn?

Option 1. Integrate into western societies? [Which means to accept the political culture of capitalism, such as freedom of the individual (which means accepting homosexuals, transvestites etc)]

Option 2. Isolate our selves from the problems we face? [Which means to lock ourselves inside the masjids and forget all worldly problems (turn a blind eye to the persecution of the Muslims worldwide)]

Option 3. Communicate? [Which means to speak out against the corruption. advise the Muslims back to Islam not only in their personal life but in political life as well] (Via the carrying of the Islamic da’wa)

What do you think and Why?

option 3 of course :)...its the method of rasool(saw)

very well posed Kosser_M

Re: Intergrate?, Isolate?, or Communicate?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
Which way should the Muslims turn?

Option 1. Integrate into western societies? [Which means to accept the political culture of capitalism, such as freedom of the individual (which means accepting homosexuals, transvestites etc)]

Option 2. Isolate our selves from the problems we face? [Which means to lock ourselves inside the masjids and forget all worldly problems (turn a blind eye to the persecution of the Muslims worldwide)]

Option 3. Communicate? Which means to speak out against the corruption. advise the Muslims back to Islam not only in their personal life but in political life as well

What do you think and Why?
[/QUOTE]

I would also say option 3 which means that we communiate. But communicate what in specific?

I am hoping that by option 3 you dont mean to resort to brutal tactics if your dawaa doesn't work on some people...

Option 1. Integrate into western societies? [Which means to accept the political culture of capitalism, such as freedom of the individual (which means accepting homosexuals, transvestites etc)]

I understand your point here, but why do you guys assume that integrating in a western society means accepting homosexuals and the like? I mean, you could just verbally oppose it (as many non-muslim americans do), let the majority decide the verdict and execute it, and you just stay out of the way. As long as you're not homosexual, what does it matter if others are? Sure, you can educate them on the Islamic perspective, but lets face it...in the end, many wont accept. So what is your stance on those that dont accept?

Integration doesn't necessarily mean you must endorse everything that goes on here. I dont know if you've lived in the US, but if there is something going on that you dont appreciate, then you can certainly be vocal about it. And you probably will find many supporters.

Look, we muslims here realize that the system in America is not completely 100% Islamic, but there are a lot of Islamic principles that are applied out here. Here, they're just considered "good moral values". And yeah, things are deteriorating here, morally. But likewise, we're seeing an upsurge of opposition to the deteriorating morality. Surely, that is a positive sign, and I'd prefer to stay with the hope of a positive in a foreign country where I'm allowed to THINK, interpret the Quran INDIVIDUALLY without some moron mullah politician executing me for opposing a majority view on a DEBATABLE manner, allowed to practice my religion, etc.

I mean, Islam, I think, is the second or third largest religion in the USA, now. You'd think that we're here for a purpose. And that, in my humble opinion, is to spread the word. If we dont do it, do you think rich arabs with 14 wives cough cough - bin laden - cough cough is going to do it?

Oh right, they use war-type jihaad to get their point across. I'm sure that has done a lot of GOOD for the image of Islam internationally!

And if spreading the word to non-muslim Americans in a peaceful and NON-FORCEFUL manner and being allowed to live the religious or non-religious or semi-religious lives we want to lead without being forced to wear a burqa for which there are now punishments in certain countries when no perscribed punishment is even mandated by God himself - requires us to "accept" certain unIslamic structures ( by the way, these Islamic structures don't exist completely in their true forms anywhere - even in precious and supposedly automatically holy Arab lands), then so be it!

I'm proud to be an American!

PyariCgudia please read the following article.

The Dangers of Integration

Khabbab (ra) relates in a hadith in Sahih Bukhari:

"We complained to the Prophet of the increasing persecution inflicted upon us by the disbelievers of Mecca. He was reclining in the shade of the Ka’aba, having made a pillow of his cloak. We submitted: ‘Why do you not supplicate for help for us? Why do you not pray for us?’

The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) answered:

‘From among those who have gone before you a man would be caught and held in a pit dug for him in the earth and he would then be sawn in two with a saw placed over his head, or his flesh would be combed away from his bones with iron combs but none of this would wean him away from his faith.’"

Life as a Muslim in the West

Living in Britain as Muslims, practising or non-practising, has naturally left us vulnerable to the ‘hammer’ that is the capitalist society.

A Muslim under the pseudonym Aisha Khan describes these pressures. Writing in the editorial section of the Guardian newspaper she describes what she felt when she saw another Muslim in Hijab:

"I envy her because I am too weak to wear the veil, too scared that doors will close and that opinions will be formed long before friendships are. Islam doesn’t oppress me; fear does. I live a half-life, a double-life: not quite a Muslim and not quite a Westerner. My parents raised me as a Muslim. They gave me everything I wanted but I coveted the freedom enjoyed by non-Muslim friends…

I have left university and now feel better equipped to cope with irreconcilable differences of being British and Muslim. You can be born and raised in this country, benefit from its education and live freely and comfortably thanks to the solid British economy. But you can also be oppressed. Stay silent when your religion is being lambasted in the press. Look on helplessly when Muslims are being persecuted in their homeland and then watch them being punished by the British Asylum system. Stuff your veil into your handbag because you’ll never get that job if you cover your head. Sacrifice prayer times and fasting to keep up with the crowd and stay in with the boss."

The Vendetta that is Integration

These pressures have taken an altogether sinister twist post September the 11th, becoming a prominent aspect of Western policy towards Muslims. The policy of ‘integration’ is to amalgamate or mix an ethnic or religious group with an existing community. Specifically in relation to the Muslims it means to pressurise them to reject certain key values and concepts of Islam and adopt some key values and concepts of Western capitalism.

Spearheaded by Western academics, politicians and the media, an attack has been targeted at Muslims who inhabit these countries, labelling them in no uncertain terms as the ‘enemy within’.

Melanie Philips, a UK Daily Mail Columnist writing in the Spectator magazine puts it bluntly when she says:

"Since most of the mass immigration now convulsing Europe is composed of Muslims, it is therefore hardly surprising that anti-immigrant feeling is largely anti-Muslim feeling. The sheer weight of numbers, plus the refusal to assimilate to western values, makes this an unprecedented crisis for western liberalism. The crisis is forcing it to confront the fundamental questions of what constitutes a country, national identity and the very nature of a liberal society.

But the problem is that it [Islam] does not just oppose libertinism. Having never had a ‘reformation’, which would have forced it to make an accommodation with modernity, it is fundamentally intolerant and illiberal. As a result, it directly conflicts with western values in areas such as the treatment of women, freedom of speech, the separation of private and public values, and tolerance of homosexuality. These are all liberal fundamentals and are not negotiable."

The efforts to integrate have become more direct and sinister post September 11th. Up until very recently Muslims have felt secure in the roles they occupy in the West. In some ways immune against the vehement hatred to Islam demonstrated by the policies of these nations against the ‘Islamic World’. Now a question has been carefully tabled to the Muslims. This is best described by remarks made by the UK Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs, Peter Hain:

“Islam is now a much bigger factor than racial tension and we are going to need to resolve that together, not by targeting Muslims as Fortuyn was doing, but sending a clear message that British Muslims are welcome here and enrich our culture, but also that they must be part of our culture. Muslim immigrants can be very isolationist in their own behaviour and their own customs. That in the end is going to create real difficulties and is likely to be ripe for exploitation by extremists, whether it is followers of Osama bin Laden on the one hand, or racists on the other. It just takes two to integrate, and we need to work with the Muslim community… Equally we have got the situation where Muslims are being targeted by Nazi groups like the British National Party and racists. So we have to work together to make sure that we target both the racists themselves and the causes of racism.”

This represents an ultimatum of sorts to the Muslim community in Britain, either you integrate or we will view you like the ‘Al Qaida’ terrorists and you will be left alone to be victimised by the BNP.

By integrate he means to divert from the Islamic political agenda or face the consequences. To replace the drive to impact society that Islam inspires with the lethargic, materialistic outlook on life. The incentives are state funded schools, prayer breaks, halal meat in schools and hospitals. The consequences of failure to integrate are to be stereotyped in the same category as the ‘Al-Qaida’ network and be made vulnerable to the far right. The threat of the latter apparent by the gains of the BNP on the council in Burnley, a microcosm of a wider trend in Europe. One in three Muslims in the UK said they or a family member had suffered personal abuse since September 11th, a poll by ICM and the Guardian found this month. In November 2001, the Daily Telegraph reported that a group of Sikhs and Hindus from Southall, London, had begun talks with the British National Party, to counter the threat they said Muslims were posing to their society.

A Pan-European phenomena

Anti-Islamic sentiment is on the march in Europe. In France 6 million people voted for Jean-Marie Le Pen during the French presidential elections. Le Pen when asked on his opinions regarding the Khimar and Jilbab, which protects the modesty of the believing women, said, “it is good, it protects us from the ugly women.”

Pim Fortuyn, the assassinated Dutch populist leader, denounced Islam as a “backward culture.” Fortuyn’s party won 20 seats in the Dutch general election. His party advocates a ban to all Muslim immigration into the Netherlands, points which strike a cord with David Blunkett, the British Home Secretary who proposes citizenship training and tests.

A poster declaring “By the time you retire, Denmark will be a majority-Muslim nation” helped the Danish People’s party leader Pia Kjaersgaard win a place in the ruling rightist coalition last November. Shortly after she declared a ‘holy war’ on Islam.

In Belgium, the Vlaams Blok has become the largest party in several cities by campaigning to reduce the number of mosques and institutionalising discrimination against Islam.

Enjoining Good and Forbidding Evil

To enjoin the good and forbid the evil is an obligation on Muslims. This is what distinguishes the Muslim Ummah as a whole.

Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta’aala) says,

“You are the best Ummah brought unto makind, you enjoin Al-Maroof and forbid Al-Munkar” [TMQ Al-Imran: 110].

“The believers, both men and women, they are protecting friends one to another; they command what is right and forbid what is wrong.” [TMQ At-Taubah: 71].

This means we, the Muslims, observe that which is around us from a specific viewpoint. This is not simply to provide judgement alone. This is from the specific perspective of producing change. It is this understanding that will naturally finds its form in the way of a state, our own state – The Khilafah. By definition therefore, Muslims cannot isolate themselves; they have to interact with the society around them. Why is there an increasing trend in reversion to Islam across Europe, if Muslims isolate themselves, are absent in the public arena and do not interface with those around them.

The real agenda behind wanting to integrate Muslims is so that they give up the values of Islam and adopt a secular outlook. This destroys in the process concepts related to Khilafah, Jihad and Ummah.

[PLEASE NOTE I HAD TO EDIT THIS ARTICLE TO MAKE IT SHORT FOR FULL ARTICLE PLEASE VISIT LINK]

Source: Khilafah Magazine July 2002 Edition

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=4603&TagID=2

kosser option 1 is good you have a choice to be muslim or other.
nobody is forcing you to change your religen.
why you think fredom of the individual has to be bad as an individual you can practise islam or anyother faith.somebody has to contantly
force you to be good?

it really might not be a bad idea for the western countries to ask the immigrants whether they object to integerating into the societies they are planning to join. Immigrants who object to integeration really should be kept away. Anyone who does not like UK, Canada, US, Australia, Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, France, Germany, etc. does not have to stay.
PCG, good for you. Those who want to dream of the 7th or 9th century and want to regress back there should really join their compatriots in some caves.

a bit of all three is'nt it. they are not and should not be mutually exclusive. Integrate in some aspects, isoltae in some aspects and communicate in some aspects.

Do you think that all subcultures in US or to that effect anywhere in the world are completely integrated in the "mainstream" or with each other?

There are religious, socio-cultural, econnomic, lifestyle etc etc divisions that maintain a certain level of identity, integrate otherwise and still have open communications with other groups.

as someone once said, stop thinking of it in terms of a melting pot, but start thinking it in terms of salad..all are a part of it, all contribute to it, and all maintain their own flavour.

Kosser, the problem with your article is that its perspective is that of a torture/genocide flavor. If muslims were being persecuted widely out here, then I doubt that
1. so many muslims would be moving here

2. so many people out here would be converting to Islam.

I just met a Puerto Rican at my college who converted to Islam. She hold an office in the college Islamic Society. So where has your "western oppression" upon muslims in the west gone now? Would people be converting at a FAST pace if we're being tortured out here?

By the way, I'd like to inform you guys that recently during Islamic Month (I dont know if this is a national thing, or a local college thing), the complete azaan was played on campus speakers for Jumaa prayers, and all the muslim students and any others who wished to join paraded on the campus from one point to the other and the event culminated in a jumaa prayer. It was so great, I heard the jumaa azaan from my dorm room clearly. And NO ONE objected, NO ONE was displeased or offended! Even the on-campus church and christian groups, jewish temple, and jewish organizations didn't voice protest. And you know what? Never before has my university rang Church bells, yet they played the azaan.

We also hold jumaa prayers on the campus, plus Islamic lectures. We also have Arabic classes, private classes for muslim women (to learn about women's rights in Islam), and some Tajweed private classes.

By the way, the woman in the article who envies the hijaabi lady - my comment on her is that it is HER fault if she is afraid to wear a hijaab. If the Rasul and his followers could brazenly follow Islam during oppression during the early Meccan era, then I think that if the woman's will is strong enough she can wear a hijaab if she wants to w/o worry.

Again, this boils down to "when will we accept responsibility for our weaknesses?"

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
a bit of all three is'nt it. they are not and should not be mutually exclusive. Integrate in some aspects, isolate in some aspects and communicate in some aspects.

Do you think that all subcultures in US or to that effect anywhere in the world are completely integrated in the "mainstream" or with each other?

There are religious, socio-cultural, econnomic, lifestyle etc etc divisions that maintain a certain level of identity, integrate otherwise and still have open communications with other groups.

as someone once said, stop thinking of it in terms of a melting pot, but start thinking it in terms of salad..all are a part of it, all contribute to it, and all maintain their own flavour.
[/QUOTE]

Mr Fradia, your statement, if put into practice would contain many contradictions and not only that but in areas where you adopt western ideas in areas of integration, your reference point becomes the reference point of the west ie you no longer act upon the halaal and the haraam but your thinking moulds around benefit and harm.

All the sub cultures that exist in the USA or anywhere in the world are cultures that can exist alongside a secular system. I.e. there are communities in britain that are full of Muslims (such as Ilford), yet Islam can only exist in thier personal life but in society thier life revolves around the capitalist system. In other words Islam is not applied as an ideology. The west do not have a problem if you pray 5 times aday or you fast as all these are what you do personally but when you want to apply Islam (as a system with rules) in the economic system, in the judiciary or in the penal code, then there is a problem.

BUT WHY?

Because now we are not talking about a culture for individuals we are talking about applying a political system (like capitalism or communism) in order to look after the needs of society. So we can see Islam is not just a belief but rather it is composed of an intellectual creed (belief reached through the mind) from which a system emanates for people (not only muslims).

So rather than saying we will integrate (mix) and also isolate is wrong. This is not wrong because it is my opinion but rather this is the saying of the Creator.

So the agenda to communicate (and not integrate) and the agenda of change was set down by Allah (swt) and his messenger (saw) executed it.

The political elite at the time of the messenger approached the Prophet's uncle and complained that he (saw) was challenging thier beliefs and customs and that he should be stoppped. The Quraish (leaders) also said that if he (saw) stoppped challenging thier beliefs and customs they would also leave him alone.

What was the response of our Nabi (saw)?

Did he say, lets integrate a bit and isolate and also communicate.....?

NO, by Allah his response was as follows:

Oh my uncle (ya amma) by Allah, if they were to put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, on condition that i abandon this course, untill Allah has made me victorious (Islam prevails) or i perish therin, i would not abandon it.

This is the attitude that we need to take ie to present Islam, not as a religion which only deals with individual issues but a complete system which is an alternative to the corrupt capitalist system installed in the world today. The system which has caused humanity to be in poverty and crime rates that are sky high. Statistics show that every 45 seconds a women is raped in the USA and that every minute 11 crimes are committed in the UK and Northern Ireland.

These crimes are a direct result of the system which propagates man to think that he is free to do what he wants and that whatever pleases him is the right thing to do.

Today the muslims need to wake after being injected with foriegn ideas about life and discover thier roots (of the Islamic aqeedah).

Khalifa ji:
How about citing the crime statistics of any and I say any of the 80 OIC muslim countries? Oh, I forget, they are not Islamic countries according to you. Again cite any period of any muslim country's history where the minorities were treated half as decently as you are being treated in UK. If you can, lets specify the laws that were being applied to the minorities. I will help you draft a petition to make sure that the muslims living in non-muslim countries at present have those "humane and better" laws applied to them.

By the way, I'd like to inform you guys that recently during Islamic Month (I dont know if this is a national thing, or a local college thing), the complete azaan was played on campus speakers for Jumaa prayers, and all the muslim students and any others who wished to join paraded on the campus from one point to the other and the event culminated in a jumaa prayer. It was so great, I heard the jumaa azaan from my dorm room clearly. And NO ONE objected, NO ONE was displeased or offended! Even the on-campus church and christian groups, jewish temple, and jewish organizations didn't voice protest. And you know what? Never before has my university rang Church bells, yet they played the azaan. <<<

PCG, West is bending backwards and forwards to accomdate Muslims and make them feel at home. Above is a good example of it. While majority of the common Muslims in west take it as a godowill gesture, the ones on the battle front think it as West's weakness and fear.

*Originally posted by Khilafah1422: *

Mr Fradia, your statement, if put into practice would contain many contradictions and not only that but in areas where you adopt western ideas in areas of integration, your reference point becomes the reference point of the west ie you no longer act upon the halaal and the haraam but your thinking moulds around benefit and harm. **

Examples not just rhetoric please...what does integration mean to you. Note that i did not say everyone become like everyone else..not only is that dumb, that is impossible and actually more of a communist idea than anything else.

benefit and harm and halal and haram are not mutually exclusive. You just have to have a broader perspective. You can always pick and choose aspects of the culture(s) that you like and not pick the ones up that you dont like.

*All the sub cultures that exist in the USA or anywhere in the world are cultures that can exist alongside a secular system. I.e. there are communities in britain that are full of Muslims (such as Ilford), yet Islam can only exist in thier personal life but in society thier life revolves around the capitalist system. In other words Islam is not applied as an ideology. The west do not have a problem if you pray 5 times aday or you fast as all these are what you do personally but when you want to apply Islam (as a system with rules) in the economic system, in the judiciary or in the penal code, then there is a problem. *

you know what, if youa re going for society at large and economic principles, first of all let the schgolars first agree what is an islamic economical system. Is interest the same as usury etc etc. There is no agreement. And by the same token...hgow is thgat different in the lives of muslism living in the west or in muslim countries? so this is not an integration point..it is a system point.

so its not a muslims living in west issue but muslims living anywhere issue. so why single out "the west" sorry but no cigar.

**

So rather than saying we will integrate (mix) and also isolate is wrong. This is not wrong because it is my opinion but rather this is the saying of the Creator. **

did the muslims in Makkah and Medina not live side by side with jews, christians and idor worshippers? did they not work together? did they not meet, discuss and talk.

Did muslims, jews and chiristians not live together and work together in Spain? I do believe that the scholars of that time knew more than myself, you or all of HT people put together.

*So the agenda to communicate (and not integrate) and the agenda of change was set down by Allah (swt) and his messenger (saw) executed it. *

proof?

**The political elite at the time of the messenger approached the Prophet's uncle and complained that he (saw) was challenging thier beliefs and customs and that he should be stoppped. The Quraish (leaders) also said that if he (saw) stoppped challenging thier beliefs and customs they would also leave him alone.

What was the response of our Nabi (saw)?

Did he say, lets integrate a bit and isolate and also communicate.....?

NO, by Allah his response was as follows:

Oh my uncle (ya amma) by Allah, if they were to put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left, on condition that i abandon this course, untill Allah has made me victorious (Islam prevails) or i perish therin, i would not abandon it. **

That is an entirely different point. Abandoning one's faith, or giving up one's beliefs is different than saying hello to your nieghbours and comgratulating them on their new job or retirement. Is that or is that not integration with teh society.

*This is the attitude that we need to take ie to present Islam, not as a religion which only deals with individual issues but a complete system which is an alternative to the corrupt capitalist system installed in the world today. The system which has caused humanity to be in poverty and crime rates that are sky high. Statistics show that every 45 seconds a women is raped in the USA and that every minute 11 crimes are committed in the UK and Northern Ireland. *

Okay, why just present capitalism in US and UK, why not go look at other shapes and forms of capitalism. #1 pure capitalism does not exist anywhere. most countries thgat are considered capitalist are somewhere between capitalism and socialism. Why dont we look at the example of Japan, or Korea, or Denmark, Sweden, Norway, France, germany and switzerland as well?

Go look at the quality of life rankings in these countries, the education percentages, life expectancy, infant mortality. compare that to any country in the muslims world.

Does islam offer a good system and a good alternative, yes, is it closer to a mic of cpaitalism and socialism than most Ht ppl could comprehend, yes.

The ideas, approaches and system needs to be modernized or we will go back to the last days of ottoman Empire where the Mullahs were passing fatwas left right and center whether soldiers can have guns and whether cannons are islamic.

*These crimes are a direct result of the system which propagates man to think that he is free to do what he wants and that whatever pleases him is the right thing to do. *

there are no crimes in saudi arabia, pakistan, or were their no crimes when you ansar the taliban ruled afghanistan? give me a break.

*Today the muslims need to wake after being injected with foriegn ideas about life and discover thier roots (of the Islamic aqeedah). *

No before that they need to figure their own selves out and stop killing one another, get out of tribal mentality due to narrow minds and widespread ignorance and illiteracy.

and btw...

by your token...any society these days in not islamic and thus you should not integrate with them to any level.

This would suggest that you move to an island and become a hermit. Otherwise you are benefitting from the system which you dont like and feel you should not be a part of.

the computer u used to type your response was made by a company which is there today due to and fully taking advantage of the capital markets, the server that this website sits on..same..the technology connecting you, the technology which made this possible.

Therefore you have integrated to the system to some level, you are using goods and services produced in this system.

Please..stay true to your word and dont integrate...and please dont use the internet to find your little island...u have to swim and find on one your own otherwise using any product of this non-islamic system may just corrupt you.

After reading the replies here i think that why some muslim choose to integrate is becuase of harm and benefit. The govt is urging muslim to become police chiefs,mps, etc, this on the surface looks good but what does this really mean? It mean it will distance the muslim in uk from the rest of the islamic ummah by making us just concentrating in our own communities and labelling us as ethinic minorties.

Also the UK govt said that if the muslims dont integrate then they will be left vunerable to BNP and NF attacks. so in essence they say if the muslims dont accpet our politcal culture then we will be left to the Hyenas.

In reality they are happy for us to say Allah Akbar in the mosque as long as we obey man made laws in society. Its simple they are not requesting but asking the muslims to integrate i.e become secular especially after sept 11 when they saw that the muslims in the West still and rightly-so see themselves as a one global ummah.

No doubt it is easy to integrate and take advantage of the benefits. BUt thing is Islam is about sacrifice and being tested.

Just because they give us good jobs doesnt mean we have to integrate, At the end of the day our critiria in life is HALAL and HARAM, not benefit n harm.

And finally a quote comes to mind

after WWI, the Bristish said:

"We must work to put an end to anything which may bring about unity amongst the sons of the muslims. As we have already succeded in destroying the Khilafah we must ensure that the unity never rise's again among the muslim weather intellectually or politcally"

What do you guys think this means????

b4 going in for any or all of the 3 - Integrate/Isolate/Communicate, we need to do a prereq. Tolerate.

Once we learn to tolerate the other person's way of life, we can go ahead with IIC. There is no point in integration if we cannot tolerate and respect diversity in people. We cannot expect to isolate ourselves and in turn be tolerated or respected by others if we do not give them the same courtesy. And, we cannot communicate with others if we cannot tolerate their points of view as well.