"Indian" Restaurants?

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
1

Isn’t this term slightly misleading? The food found in most ‘Indian’ restaurants is not widely eaten in India as most Indians are vegetarians. The main dishes found in standard Indian restaurants are of muslim origin, ie, kebabs, karahi, lamb, chicken and lots o’ good old meat. These are mostly Punjabi in origin and strictly speaking, we are talking Muslim Punjab, as Sikhs themselves are supposedly vegetarian.

The truth is, the food found in Indian restaurants is really Pakistani food. This stuff is widely eaten in Pakistan and it has it’s influences from the middle east through Turkey and Afghanistan. With an Indian influence of course. But as Indian restaurants only came about after partition, why aren’t they called Pakistani restaurants? The food is exclusively Pakistani if you look at it with an unbiased eye.

Let me kill another bird while I am here. Many Bangladehis having originally worked as chefs in these restaurants are now claiming the food is Bangladeshi. This is also nonsense. The staple diet of Bengalis is fish and rice. There is not too much of that served in these restaurants.

There was a very interesting article in the Observer a while back about the origins of food in Indian restaurants and the writer (I can’t remember his name)did conclude that by all rights they should be referred to as Pakistani restaurants. What do you Indians think?

For all those who don’t live in the UK I’m sorry for all this talk about food. Here it’s nearly time for Iftari so no hard feelings :wink:

2

I agree Xtreme ji!! The Muslim influence on Indian cuisine has been huge!! :)

3

Who told u that 'most' Indians are nonvegeterians? That might be true about Tamil ayyar/ayyangars who are found in plenty in US.

4

ZZ,

what do you mean? Vegetarians or nonvegetarians? I don't know about Indians because they all say something different. To some hindus it is sacrilege to eat even chees or eggs. Others will happily eat even sacred cows. You tell me, i haven't got a clue what is going on.

I based my view that these dishes are muslim in origin after reading the comments of the famous actress-turned-cook, Maddhur Jaffrey who described them as muslim dishes. She lived in India remember? She told of how she used to swap food at school with her muslim friemds who used to have meat.

What is the food in Indian restaurants if not a cross between muslim cuisine and Indian cuisine. In other words PAKISTANI.

Why do people feel the need to deny this? I would never claim jalaybis were from Iran.

5

and now Xtreme's literally baiting Indians with food! :)

as most Indians are vegetarians.<

most brahmins are veggies..most of the other indians are non-veg.

Perhaps you are right, much of the punjabi section of the menu in such restaurants might be of muslim origin, but then, who said muslims are not indians? indian culture subsumes punjabi cuisine. btw, is sarson da saag, makhi di roti and lassi of persian or afghan origin? Perhaps Hyderabadi Biryani is the legacy of turks, but who gives a damn, it's indian now.
Similar sentiments on the tandoori side. Perhaps the stuff is common in Pakistan, but so is it in India. Perhaps a visit to the roadside dhabas in any town in india would cure you of the syndrome.

6

I think that india being the bigger country, many restaurants get the indian food tag. I know Pakistani Restaurants that show up in Yellow pages under Indian restaurants. The Name Pakistan is only 52 years old versus the name India which carries more historical and thus exotic weight behind it.

It would be the same if we had Bharati restaurants and not Indian. no one knows what Bharat is...same deal with Pakistan.
Bangladesh has a bigger issue.

My motto is very simple. Let the restaurant owner decide what name he/she wants to give to the cuisine. My mission is to just enjoy the food, no labels please. Otherwise turks. arabs and iranians will start telling us to name our food arabic/turkish/iranian food.
Everytime I eat a samosa I hafta look around to make sure that no arab dewd is watching, after all samosa is arabic food. and lets not talk about the kebabs or the turks will be all over us.

There is a famous saying, aap aam khayen, par na ginaen.

just mah thoughts

7

Xtreme Yar, I am not in a mood to get into a culinary fight with you at this time as things are pretty hectic both at home and at work. You have no idea how so sensitive I am about this subject. Indian food is the best, and it is not the Pakistani (or Punjabi) influence on Indian cuisine, but it is the other way around. Pakistani food is just as delicious, but there are certainly more varieties in various regions of both Pakistan and India that overlap. I arranged for our office Christmas party at “Salam Bombay”, a very nice place in downtown New York City. That is my regular hangout, and I taken many of my frog and pig eating colleagues there and most of them have converted to Indian Foodism. Nothing is more satisfying than a well prepared Vindaloo dish. Eat, and be happy!

Yours appreciative food (only INDIAN) loving friend

P.S. Xtreme yar, we haven’t been able to make a strong case to the management to open Handi Routee. I hope these Gup Masters realize that how critically important it is to establish a new Forum specifically dedicated to such issues.

8

Ny Ahmadi mian

You have the full authority to use the arts & culture section as your Haandi roti joint.

After all cuisine is part of a culture..and ummm when i cook its some sort of abstract art, ...so it fits in well either way. Please do share all recipes and culinary history etc etc.

[This message has been edited by Fraudz (edited December 14, 1999).]

9

Ok, back from Iftari which was, somewhat disappointingly, fish fingers and chips (fries to the yanks). I ask you!!

Queer,

No, I'm not baiting, just fighting my corner!

Perhaps you are right, much of the punjabi section of the menu in such restaurants might be of muslim origin, but then, who said muslims are not indians? indian culture subsumes punjabi cuisine. btw, is sarson da saag, makhi di roti and lassi of persian or afghan origin? Perhaps Hyderabadi Biryani is the legacy of turks, but who gives a damn, it's indian now.

For how long? Everybody's wised up to that trick (absorb and claim) and before you know it Indian food will be known as Japanese food...

Fraudia,

yeah, I know all that is true...

NYA,

Indian food is the best, and it is not the Pakistani (or Punjabi) influence on Indian cuisine, but it is the other way around.

I wouldn't argue with that but you seem to be missing the point...Pakistani food is a mixture of Indian food and turk/Persian food. Both have influenced each other. In Afghanistan, the food eaten is nearer what is eaten in Iran (even their tea is different). It is in Pakistan that you get what is closest to restaurant food sold commercially.

BTW, I think a Handi/Roti section won't stand on it's own two feet so post you culinary musings in this forum (arts and culture).

Let me finish with a quote from Madhur Jaffrey whose words inspired this thread;

[quote]
Another friend of mine was a muslim from Uttar Pradesh, known to bring beef cooked with spinach, all deliciously flavoured with chillies, cardomom and cloves. Many of us were Hindus and not supposed to eat beef. So we just pretended to not know what it was...there was the strong influence of the Moghuls. They had come to India via Persia in the 16th century and introduced the sub-continent to delicate pillaos and meats cooked with yoghurts and fried onions
[/quote]

sound familiar?

10

Xtreme and Fraudia Yars, call it whatever you like, Indian or Pakistani, I am just fond beyond belief of our food. When you love something as much as I do, you don’t get into verbosity. I love this food like no one has ever loved it. Give me some good Pakistani/Indian food and I am all yours.

Just a little fact for you: any of the spices (cardamom, black peppers, mustard seeds, coriandor, etc. and lots more) are indigenous only to South India. It begs the question whether Persians or Arabs borrowed these spices from India to enrich their own cuisine? I would argue, at a later point, that is very much the case.

Fraudia Yar, cooking is not an art, it is a science. Anyone can cook Korma, but to make it authentic, one needs a lot more specificity with grounding the cardamom for the right amount of time. Each little step in preparation is calculated and forcibly enforced to make the final product. Those who think that it is simple as an eye-measure haven’t tasted the real McCoy.

11

NY mian, my cooking is a form of abstract art.

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/biggrin.gif

i.e. no one but I, and sometimes not even I, understand what went into the food and why :>

12

Fraudia Yar,

There is Francis Bacon, Willem de Kooning, Hans Hoffman, Jackson Pollack, and then there are hundreds of Joe Blows abstract artists struggling to make a penny on the shores of Thames and East Rivers. I am fond of Pollack types. Anyone can cook a meal, not everyone can cook “the” meal that touches more than your hunger, in-fact one that reaches your soul is not an abstract form of art but a phenomenon prepared with utmost calculation of time and space.

13

Ny mian

thats why if you open your handi roti jarga here, I can graduate from being an abstract artist cook to a scientific genius.

As it is, I have to hold my nose shut while I eat my own cooking and chase it with soda so my senses of smell and taste are not hurt.

I am banned from the kitchen...and you bringing yer handi roti party here may help.

Make me a true jedi bawarchi :>

14

well.. about sikhs being vegetarian.. find a few vegetarian sikhs if u can. it is rare to find sikh who does not eat meat and does not drink. most sikhs are khatris and jatts. both eat meat. mehajabi sikhs eat meat also. there are some brahmin sikhs too. but they are few. guru govindsinghji is reported to have hunted. and a lot of hindus are vegetarians as well. 'muslim punjab' is an artificial state formed after partition.

but it is true that abroad, mostly u get punjabi dishes. u rarely have masala dosa, uttappam, idli, zunka-bhakar, sambar, rasam u dont get. many vegetables are never cooked in restaurants. They are busy with potatos all the time.

I am not south Indian. But I love those south indian dishes, which are less oily, healthier. but abroad u dont have them except masal dosa once in a while. I do not want to be too finicky. But the fermentation is often not for right time and the coconut oil works best for these dishes. Abroad, they use any oil

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited December 15, 1999).]

15

Dear ZZ,

“>>>>. u rarely have masala dosa, uttappam, idli, zunka-bhakar, sambar, rasam u dont get.<<<”

don’t make me mad! I love Rasam. FYI, it is abundantly available in many neat Indian Restaurants in NYC. May be not as good as you get in India, but pretty placating nonetheless. I will prefer Rasam over Minestrone anyday.

16

I hope you guys continue your conversation... I am definitely learning a lot about food.. my only passion in life!

17

oye chitoroon zameen asmaan ka farq hay donoo main

India has its own unique dishes such as Vindaloo and Butter Chicken or Mango Chicken and Iddly Dhoosa
that is all indian food

in my opnion Indians are best at cooking vegie dishes

Pakistanis are more into
Sindhi Biryani, Pakoras (just taste indian pakoras they are truly tasteless

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif

) Samosas (same goes for samosas too) plus the chinese of pakistan in my opnion is the best of the best , haleem, nihari, kebabs,

oye mera roza hay

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by nadia21 (edited December 17, 1999).]

18

btw whats with North India
in singapore i happend to stop by for lunch at this north indian resturant and they served food on leaves

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif

that was really dumb

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif

eating biryani out of a leaf

http://www.pak.org/gupshup/frown.gif

19

It is all junk. I have eaten biryani in restaurants where owner and cook are pakistamis. There is no comparison with biryani u get in hyderabad.

In Hyderabad, they serve biryani on leaves at times. Nothing dumb in that. If you can eat biriani with spoon and fork in stead of hands in west (and maybe with chopsticks in Hong Kong) what is wrong with leaves.

Of course, I agree with Nadia that vegetarian dishes, Indian dishes are best. But in nonvegetarian also, they are pretty good..

What is this Pakistani chinese dishes. You should eat chinese dishes in Calcutta. There are lot of blue blooded chinese in Calcutta. Not fake Chinese. Few thousand of them. Food there is comparable only to food in Hong Kong. OK HK is bit better. Some of these chinese are now migrating to cook in various countries. Some brain drain.

20

Just a little fact for you: any of the spices (cardamom, black peppers, mustard seeds, coriandor, etc. and lots more) are indigenous only to South India. It begs the question whether Persians or Arabs borrowed these spices from India to enrich their own cuisine? I would argue, at a later point, that is very much the case.<<

I agree with NA, most of the Iranian or middle eastern food I have eaten is quite bland although I like their bread. Use of Spices is very Indian.

I love good food from all parts of the world.