ROhit, very good points indeed. Sangh parivar is a scourge indeed. I think what also helps them is the duality in how hindus and muslims are treated. I think constitutionally they have been separated, you might be able to correct me. With affirmative action and separate judicial process for muslims than hindus. These impediments for assimilation need to be removed. I belive that there are certain shariat type ordinances in place to placate the muslim religious dogmas. I think in a secular country, you cannot have it both ways. You need to remove those as well. These racists use these polciies adopted at independence to bring parity and provide nurturing to a minority community as a political tool as well.
Matsui go back to where you belong. I.e. Cafe. You should know by now where your place is.
Rohit, then if there are so many problems. Why cause more grief and anguish by flaming an issue which will cause more bloodshed. The stay order was where it should have stopped. Hindus burned down a mosque just like the Taliban destoryed the Bayan bhudda statutes. There is no difference. What is done is done.
CM, actually what is done is wrong. That is the point. I think secular society are incumbent on learning lessons from history because they are not tied to religious dogma. Indians better learn from the babri masjid incident fallout. They need to change the legal and penal code and install hate crime legislations. They need to eradicate shariat based ordinances and affirmative action plans for muslims and follow the models of what is taking place in the commercial centers where meritocracies is ripping through the myopic relious/cultural/caste boundaries at an unprecendented speed.
Yes, but I’m afraid your whole post trying to single out a ‘mutual’ antipathy only between Hindu’s and Muslims is not a very clever attempt to shift some blame away from the BJP-RSS fanatics. The fact of the matter is that the BJP-RSS Hinduvta lot have a problem not only with Muslims, but Christians against whom they have carried out bombings and murders, and the Sikhs whom they were calling Hinduis a couple of years ago. Basically the Hinduvta lot have a problem with anyone who is not a Hindu, be they Muslim, Christian, Sikh etc, and their campiagns against these communities over the recent years is proof of that.
This is from the link rvikz posted earlier…
Hate Campaign against Christians in Indian Union](http://www.dalitstan.org/christian/killings/hatecamp.html)
Bajrang Dal leaders say they want Christians out](http://www.dalitstan.org/christian/killings/bdchrout.html)
^ that is a minor problem in the whole scheme of things. In a country of billion people, this is a mere Blip. Find some other sore point.
lovely link though 
Matsui, if you get rid of Affirmative action, you let the hindu caste system re-enforce the subjugation of Dalits all over again.
Affirmative action has run it's course in India. Whether it be the muslims or dalits. christians do not benefit from that nor do sikhs. Are they less of a minority?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
^ that is a minor problem in the whole scheme of things. In a country of billion people, this is a mere Blip. Find some other sore point.
[/QUOTE]
There appears to be more blips in India than the morse code.
The reality is that the Hinduvtas have a problem with all minorities who are not high caste Hindus. Just look at the way they have burnt and killed thousands of Muslims, destroyed christian churches, killed christian priests and nuns, and hounded christian missionaries. And to top it all off we really dont want to go into the way they treat the 300 million low caste Dalits.
If you do not believe rvikz's link, I can always post many more. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Affirmative action has run it's course in India. Whether it be the muslims or dalits. christians do not benefit from that nor do sikhs. Are they less of a minority?
[/QUOTE]
Then subjugation and racial profiling is fine?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
so you think congress is less commmunal? whole ayodya hapened
during narashima rao regime i dont know about the local state
goveremnt who is responsible for the destruction.
[/QUOTE]
I wholly agree, and others have stated in this thread the so-called "secular" parties in India, be they DMK or Congress are little interested in defending 'secularlism' or resigning because Muslims have been burned and killed.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
I wholly agree, and others have stated in this thread the so-called "secular" parties in India, be they DMK or Congress are little interested in defending 'secularlism' or resigning because Muslims have been burned and killed.
[/QUOTE]
there is alwyas fighting the differrences is # of killed is higher
for one community but hatred is equal.there is no leaders in both community to give directions to live toghether.
CM, I completely agree. 
Nice posts Rohit, very balanced approach :k:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
there is alwyas fighting the differrences is # of killed is higher
for one community but hatred is equal.
[/QUOTE]
Sadly, the facts prove and so does your link the Dalitstan site that Hinduvta fanatics have a problem with all non-Hindu and low caste Hindu's. It is these people that have a problem not only with Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and Dalits but also the entire idea of secularlism. But the even greater tragedy is that the so-called "secular" parties e.g. DMK, would rather go into partnership with these fanactics (for reasons others have mentioned) than defend Indian secularlism, and you are saying it is the same for Congress.
Regarding affirmative action - I am aware that the "personal laws" (i.e., related to marriage, inheritence, etc.) are different for Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc., but I don't have enough knowledge about the specifics.
Should we have common laws of all citizens, regardless of religion? I feel it is not practical. Many people in the subcontinent take religion very sincerely. At the same time, the various religions followed (Christanity, Hinduism, Islam) are very different from each other. We cannot accomodate all of these religions' dogmas into a "common" system. So, neccessarily, some people's religious beliefs would be violated, and I feel that is not right.
It seems it is best to let each community have its own personal laws.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rohit: *
Regarding affirmative action - I am aware that the "personal laws" (i.e., related to marriage, inheritence, etc.) are different for Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc., but I don't have enough knowledge about the specifics.
Should we have common laws of all citizens, regardless of religion? I feel it is not practical. Many people in the subcontinent take religion very sincerely. At the same time, the various religions followed (Christanity, Hinduism, Islam) are very different from each other. We cannot accomodate all of these religions' dogmas into a "common" system. So, neccessarily, some people's religious beliefs would be violated, and I feel that is not right.
It seems it is best to let each community have its own personal laws.
[/QUOTE]
it is not like west where muslims have to come under secular law even if it contradicts islam. south asiaian countries based on religious identity.
One more example of affirmative action comes to mind - that of reservations, or "quotas" in educational institutes and government jobs. I feel this certainly has not fulfilled the purpose it is supposed to.
In India, because of the population problem, it is quite difficult to get admission into good colleges. As just one example, a few years ago the prestigious IIMs used to have a combined student intake of 600 per year, while the number of aspiring students writing its entrance examinations used to exceed 2,00,000 (2 lakh). This same competition extends to the job market too; unemployment has always been high. In such a scenario, when reservations for the minorities (mainly the downtrodden Hindu castes and tribes) were announced, the majority was very upset, and vigorously protested the government's moves, more so because they believed it was only a political gimmick.
At that time, I was in school. Uptill that point, I had never heard my classmates discuss castes, possibly because we were living in an urban, modern part of India (Delhi). But within a year or two of the reservations coming into place, it was not uncommon to hear someone talk of a classmate as being a "shaddu" ("scheduled caste"), or having come from "quota". So, it seems that the whole incident affected the urban upper-caste youth; they became aware of castes (which they presumably didn't consider important earlier), and became resentful of their lower-caste compatriots.
After school, I went to an engineering college. It was a second-rung college, but still the competition was stiff. In the entrance exam, I secured the 66th rank among 16,000 candidates. Most students in my Comp. Sc. & Engg. class had got approximately the same ranks - between 30 and 100. However, the students who got admission in the class through the "reservation" quota had ranks in the range of 2000+. Naturally, there was a large gap between the grasping ability of the "open category" students, and the "quota" students. The latter had problems right from the beginning of the course. By the end of the fourth year, about one-third had dropped out of the college, while another one-third had been demoted to a junior class (because of not having cleared all of their papers); the remaining one-third did complete their degrees in time. And, this is the scene in a second-rung college; in the first-rung colleges like IITs, the difference is even more stark. One of the reservation quote students at my college was one day talking to me on this subject. He said that in the IITs most of the quotas student find the studies very difficult, and eventually drop out, sometimes after having tried for 6 - 7 years to complete the degree. I feel this is a tragedy; such students ultimately have wasted so many years of their life, and not gained anything. Had they got entrance into a college purely on merit, they would have found themselves among students of equal calibre, and presumably they would have got admission into a course which was not so difficult to complete. Then, they would have had something to show for their efforts. And not only that, they would also have been spared the loss of self-confidence that comes when one is not able to complete their studies.
Moreover, the "quota" students who do complete their professional courses are often not very competent in their fields. Would you trust such a civil engineer with the construction of your house? Or, would you trust such a doctor for your health? It is no wonder then that even those politicians who are the greatest champions of the reservation cause, never use such professionals' services; when they need medical attention, you will always find them in the most expensive, private meritocratic hospitals.
So, I feel we can safely say that this particular affirmative action has failed.
What is the solution? I feel that instead of promising reservations in colleges and jobs, it is better to provide good and free schooling. Also, attempts should be made to alleviate poverty, so that children in such communities don't have to help their parents in earning a living. Then, these children will be able to devote more time for schooling, and will be able to gain admission to the good colleges on their own merit. Moreover, alleviation of poverty will also help in more all-round development of the wards in their early childhood.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Yes, but I'm afraid your whole post trying to single out a 'mutual' antipathy only between Hindu's and Muslims is not a very clever attempt to shift some blame away from the BJP-RSS fanatics.
[/QUOTE]
Malik, there was no "attempt" in my post. I just presented my true experiences and thoughts as clearly and as honestly as I could. I talked about the Hindu-Muslim relationship because that was on my mind; it did not occur to me to discuss what has been going on between the Hindutva group and other minorites.
Moreover, I did not try to shift any balmed away from "BJP-RSS fanatics". I pointed the finger at the "Sangh Parivar", which is another name for the BJP-RSS family.
[QUOTE]
The fact of the matter is that the BJP-RSS Hinduvta lot have a problem not only with Muslims, but Christians against whom they have carried out bombings and murders ...
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I feel you are right.
[QUOTE]
and the Sikhs whom they were calling Hinduis a couple of years ago.
[/QUOTE]
Well, historically Sikhs were Hindus only. Sikhism originated about 300 years ago. Originally, the practice was for the eldest son in every Hindu family to become a Sikh. Some families carry on this tradition even today; my father himself is the eldest son of his parents, and they thought of making him a Sikh. For some reason however, they did not go ahead with it.
So, Hinduism and Sikhism are not different religions. Hindus and Sikhs freely inter-marry; there is no "conversion" required from one religion to the other. Also, many Hindus visit the Gurudwaras as routinely as they visit temples. And till 1984, the Sikhs used to celebrate all the Hindu festivals (e.g., Diwali).
It was only after the 1984 anti-Sikh riots that some of the Sikhs felt the need to consider themselves a separate religion. The Sikh religious leaders weighed this option. However, they have not (yet) gone ahead with it. It is not an easy decision, because once Sikhism is deemed to be a separate religion, the free inter-marrying between Hindus and Sikhs will stop.
[QUOTE]
Basically the Hinduvta lot have a problem with anyone who is not a Hindu, be they Muslim, Christian, Sikh etc, and their campiagns against these communities over the recent years is proof of that.
[/QUOTE]
I agree.
Advani the fundo could be the next PM of India. No wonder the Hinduvtas are trying to protect him.
Ayodhya charges rock parliament.
The lower house of the Indian parliament has been adjourned in uproar after an argument about the destruction of the Ayodhya mosque.
Opposition members accused the Bharatiya Janata Party-led government of influencing the Indian Central Bureau of Investigation to drop conspiracy charges levelled against several Hindu nationalist leaders over the incident in 1992.
Among those who had been accused was the Deputy Prime Minister, Lal Krishan Advani.