Independent Ayodha dig finds no evidence of fabled temple

If Kabir were there at Ayodhya dt 6th Dec 1992. What could be his reaction?

Kabir, What this gathering of Hindus is doing here?
There are demolishing this mosque.
Kabir, Why they are demolishing this mosque?
They want to construct a temple for prayers.
Kabir, Why cannot they pray in this mosque?
Because if Hindus pray here, where Muslims will offer Namaz?
Kabir, So what, Hindus can pray and Muslims can offer Namaz here, together. What is the problem?

Definitely problem is there. Because Hindus and Muslims belong to different parties of Gods.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Asif_k: *

Actually Mods should have done little more. They should have kicked your stup!d RSS a$$ much harder and thrown you back to the sewer you came from.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with what you say. But you did not need to use name of RSS. As you might end up hurting some good people as well. Contrary to the general image of RSS, it has some good social aspects as well. They emphasize on good social and moral values, history/heritage of India and culture. I have met many RSS members, who are not biased at all on the basis of religion. Many of them work voluntarily as social workers in slums of cities and backward rural areas. They have done some commendable job in improving the lives in some backward areas. So RSS minus religious bias ( that again is a personal thing) is not that bad as it sounds. I do not claim the same for other organizations, like VHP or Bajrang Dal. They can go to hell for all I care.

Above might be a digression from the topic. But I thought it was imperative for me to clear this up.

Cheers!

Yeah right. Keep this in mind from now on :wink:

Hippocrites are here again.
RSS is the mother organization of all Bjrangi and VHP. Once a RSS originated trader (a marwari) was talking a lot of his love for motherland. I put up a very simple question if he pays all legal taxes.

His answer was that trading and loyalty to motherland are two different things.

Dear Mod, Mursalin, I want to say that Muslims are the best people and have never done anything wrong thruout history.
Are you happy?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fantoosh: *
Mrsalin, the Mod, the way you censsor the post and change the meaning, ultimately I think that Hindus in Ayodhaya did a right thing. At least Muslims have brought down so many temples, what if one disputed mosque is broken?

Hindus must be proud of that.
[/QUOTE]

Fantoosh, I would also repeat what the others have said - "Two wrongs don't make a right." And here too, we are assuming that there was a wrong done earlier (demolition of the temple to make a mosque). What if there wasn't? :)

One more point: You said, " ... Muslims have brought down so many temples ..." and " ... Hindus in Ayodhya did a right thing ... ". Well, the Hindus which demolished the mosque did not represent the entire Hindu community, and similarly if any Muslims demolished a temple, I am sure they didn't represent the entire Muslim community. We must be careful not to make such generalizations. I know it's very easy; often I do it too, but imbibing a habit of not doing so is very important. Making generalizations as above, and believing in them, leads to things like the world war-II holocaust and the communal riots.

Peace.

**

You got that right…:k:…History is witness…

Ayodhya riot orphans’ formula: in the name of God, seal the place

let us hear from people who suffered due to ayodya

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=27147

rvikz, why did DMK, the party you voted for, join the BJP/RSS govt. after the Ayodhia inspired massacre of Muslims, and stay in the BJP/RSS govt. after the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat?

Is this what you call 'Indian Secularism'?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 2bornot2b: *
rvikz, why did DMK, the party you voted for, join the BJP/RSS govt. after the Ayodhia inspired massacre of Muslims, and stay in the BJP/RSS govt. after the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat?

Is this what you call 'Indian Secularism'?
[/QUOTE]

'sometimes politics make strnage bedfelllows.

^ then stop going on about how secular Hindustan is, and say what really HINDUStan stands for!!.

it is up to us to decide . we choose our system and you are not living there.
anyhow secularism is rejected by pakistan.

Repeatedly, in many elections, the people have rejected the thesis of Hindutva. Political parties that have preached hatred against the Muslims and the Christians have been restrained. Parties banking on religious sentiments have never been allowed to get a majority in Parliament. They have not been allowed to reach a strength where they can alter the Constitution to dilute the secular g uarantees. Civil society is also witnessing a great movement in which secular India has stood up against attacks on the Christian community. In the face of the fact that often we have seen the Union government and the state governments refusing to show th e required political will to act decisively to stop the atmosphere of hate that is being deliberately created through falsehood and half truths, the response we are seeing on the part of the common Indian people is significant. We wish this voice of sanit y to be louder. We believe this will happen, that mainstream India will totally reject and defeat the marginal Hindutva groups that foment the hate, and mastermind the violence.
http://www.dalitstan.org/christian/dayal/uscomirf.html

And you aint livin in Pakistan, yet you choose to comment on it every day. :hehe:

As you pointed out India is supposed to be secular. So do tell us, why did DMK, the party you voted for, join the BJP/RSS govt. after the Ayodhia inspired massacre of Muslims, and stay in the BJP/RSS govt. after the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat?

Is this what you call ‘Indian Secularism’?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *

'sometimes politics make strnage bedfelllows.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, the so-called "secular" party you voted for i.e. the DMK has remained a steadfast ally of the BJP-RSS government even after the BJP-RSS lot burned and killed thousands of Muslims at Gujrat.

That's a nice source you have posted their rvikz, it sheds considerable light on the topic of "holocaust of the Sudra people in India" as it terms it.

This is what the VHP/BJP/RSS nexus think of Muslims. So much for their supporters on these forums.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front_page&file_name=story4.txt&counter_img=4

Pioneer News Service / New Delhi

"The Muslim psyche is responsible for the failure of the initiative taken by Kanchi Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati to resolve the Ram Mandir construction issue at Ayodhya.

I think it was the best chance for Muslims to win over the hearts of Hindus by accepting the formula proposed by the Kanchi Seer. They have intentionally spoiled the chances to reach an understanding over the issue," Vishwa Hindu Parishad vice-president Acharya Giriraj Kishore said. In an interview to The Pioneer, the VHP leader took strong exception to the All India Muslim Personal Law Board members rejecting the pontiff’s formula. “Who are they to reject the formula? The Muslim leadership do not have the minimum courtesy to say that the formula was not acceptable to them,” he said.

The VHP leader said wherever the Islam has gone, it has proved to be a menace to peace of the land. In the same manner they were creating hurdles in India also, he added. The VHP senior leader said Muslims are known for their illogical behaviour. “Pakistan is demanding Kashmir on religion basis. If this argument is taken to be granted, all the Muslims in Bharat should be sent to Pakistan,” he said. Mr Kishore said his organisation would not allow the attempts of the Muslim leadership to convert India into a Dar-ul-Islam.

Mr Kishore suggested the Muslim community should have voluntarily handed over the Ram Janmabhoomi, Krishna Janmasthan and Kashi Visweshara shrines to the Hindus. Stating that history bears evidence of the fact that the Muslims have destroyed more than 3,000 temples and built mosques over them, he said the Hindus are being generous in demanding the return of only three temples.

“The Muslims have not considered our demand. In any case, we will take these temples back. No mosque would be permitted within 14 kos of the Ram temple site in Ayodhya. Moreover, the Babri Masjid cannot be constructed in any part of Bharat as the very name symbolises the victory of Babar over subdued India,” he said.

The VHP leader said the Ram Mandir in Ayodhya should be constructed by legislation. He said that the Somnath Mandir in Gujarat was constructed by means of legislation.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

Yes, the so-called "secular" party you voted for i.e. the DMK has remained a steadfast ally of the BJP-RSS government even after the BJP-RSS lot burned and killed thousands of Muslims at Gujrat.

That's a nice source you have posted their rvikz, it sheds considerable light on the topic of "holocaust of the Sudra people in India" as it terms it.
[/QUOTE]

dmk gets lots of muslim votes since it always aligns with tamil muslim league.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *

dmk gets lots of muslim votes since it always aligns with tamil muslim league.
[/QUOTE]

The Tamil Muslim league is not part of the BJP-RSS government, but the party you voted for i.e. the DMK is. Now you have dodged the question enough times, and maybe this time you might try to answer it. Why did your "secular" party, the DMK become part of the BJP-RSS government in New Delhi after the killings of Muslims after Ayodhya, and stay part of the BJP-RSS government after the genocide of Muslims in Gujrat?

Why did the DMK and other so-called "secular" allies not quit the BJP-RSS government and help bring it down after Gujrat? Obviously these parties don't really believe in defending this so-called Indian "secularlism", do they?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

The Tamil Muslim league is not part of the BJP-RSS government, but the party you voted for i.e. the DMK is. Now you have dodged the question enough times, and maybe this time you might try to answer it. Why did your "secular" party, the DMK become part of the BJP-RSS government in New Delhi after the killings of Muslims after Ayodhya, and stay part of the BJP-RSS government after the genocide of Muslims in Gujrat?

Why did the DMK and other so-called "secular" allies not quit the BJP-RSS government and help bring it down after Gujrat? Obviously these parties don't really believe in defending this so-called Indian "secularlism", do they?
[/QUOTE]

explain meaning of dmk . i am sure you cant understand the basics
of dmk.al so you dont know about dk .

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *

i am sure you cant understand the basics
of dmk.al so you dont know about dk .
[/QUOTE]

It doesn't take a genius to recognise the fact that your DMK is an ally of the BJP-RSS government in New Delhi - see the links in previous posts. Or are you denying this fact?

The clear fact is that so-called "secular" parties like the DMK (which you vote for) and others are propping up a BJP-RSS government which instigated the slaughter in Gujrat, and the Ayodhya-inspired massacres of Muslims before that. So much for Indian "secularlism" huh?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

It doesn't take a genius to recognise the fact that your DMK is an ally of the BJP-RSS government in New Delhi - see the links in previous posts. Or are you denying this fact?

The clear fact is that so-called "secular" parties like the DMK (which you vote for) and others are propping up a BJP-RSS government which instigated the slaughter in Gujrat, and the Ayodhya-inspired massacres of Muslims before that. So much for Indian "secularlism" huh?
[/QUOTE]

so you think congress is less commmunal? whole ayodya hapened
during narashima rao regime i dont know about the local state
goveremnt who is responsible for the destruction. but these dont occur
in south and you shopuld talk to tamil muslims .

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

It doesn't take a genius to recognise the fact that your DMK is an ally of the BJP-RSS government in New Delhi - see the links in previous posts. Or are you denying this fact?

The clear fact is that so-called "secular" parties like the DMK (which you vote for) and others are propping up a BJP-RSS government which instigated the slaughter in Gujrat, and the Ayodhya-inspired massacres of Muslims before that. So much for Indian "secularlism" huh?
[/QUOTE]

DMK and some other so-called secular parties are in the NDA (the coalition) only for the political reasons. Maybe being a part of the central government helps them get policy decisions which will be favourable to them in their native states. Or maybe they just want to have some of their people as central ministers - an opportunity to make money, and to dole out favours to kith and kin.

Even if any such party leaves the NDA, it will be only if they fear that remaining there would alienate their Muslim supporters; nobody would quit for moral reasons. Politics has become a way of gathering power (money & influence), and few politicians these days are principle-driven.

As for secularism, or any other -ism, I believe it has two parts - the belief in the hearts of the people, and the legal provisions in the constitution.

Regarding secularism in India, the legal provisions still exist. However, the secular outlook among the people is decreasing. I believe the politics of the Sangh Parivar are to blame. They spread their propaganda continuously and in the garb of "culture".

A brief digression: The two major religious communities in India have lived a little aloof from each other. A typical adult Hindu will not have Muslim friends, and I believe most Muslims also have few Hindu friends. Because of this, most Hindus don't really understand Islam or Muslims. (On the other hand, since the Muslims live in a predominantly Hindu country, they do understand atleast some of Hinduism, and Hindus).

So, in this situation - where most Hindus don't understand Muslims - the Sangh Parivar people have been able to brainwash them with their ingenious propaganda. They say things like, "Muslims don't employ family planning because they want to be the dominant religion in India. ... Five hundred years from now, Hindus will be in minority. ... Muslim rulers committed atrocities against Hindus; once the Muslims are in majority, they will do so again. ..." etc.

So, many Hindus believe that the Sangh Parivar says and does the right things. When the Gujarat riots took place, the Sangha Parivar said that it was a "natural reaction" to the burning of the Hindus in the ill-fated train, by Muslims. And, most Hindus believed it; this included my parents. I had difficulty explaining to them that it was politically motivated, where the rioteers went around carrying government records of the properties of Muslims.

Moreover, the common person (anywhere in the World) doesn't want to be needlessly disturbed. If anybody else is in trouble, they don't bother, because "it" is happening to "them", not "us". So, most Hindus did not consider the riots to be a big deal.

I am sure this apparent apathy of Hindus towards the Muslims must have come as a disappointment to the Muslims. So, now we have a situation where the Hindus mistrust the Muslims because of the Sangh Parivar's propaganda, and the Muslims mistrust the Hindus because of their apathy and their apparent silent complicity.

To me, it looks like things will only worsen, until we ask ourselves some tough questions. And unfortunately, the tough questions won't be asked - are never asked, anywhere in the world - until the problems have gone out-of-control.