Independence Celebration but now what?

As both India and Pakistan celebrated their respective independence days this week, we have much to rejoice. What are the tangible benefits of independence, where have we come from and where are we going. for a status quo analysis, my favorite Thomas Friedman offers his perspective on democracy and the differences between India and Pakistan
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/14/opinion/14FRIE.html

Where Freedom Reigns
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

ANGALORE, India —

The more time you spend in India the more you realize that this teeming, multiethnic, multireligious, multilingual country is one of the world’s great wonders — a miracle with message. And the message is that democracy matters.

This truth hits you from every corner. Consider Bangalore, where the traffic is now congested by all the young Indian techies, many from the lower-middle classes, who have gotten jobs, apartments — and motor scooters — by providing the brainpower for the world’s biggest corporations. While the software designs of these Indian techies may be rocket science, what made Bangalore what it is today is something very simple: 50 years of Indian democracy and secular education, and 15 years of economic liberalization, produced all this positive energy.

Just across the border in Pakistan — where the people have the same basic blood, brains and civilizational heritage as here — 50 years of failed democracy, military coups and imposed religiosity have produced 30,000 madrassahs — Islamic schools, which have replaced a collapsed public school system and churn out Pakistani youth who know only the Koran and hostility toward non-Muslims.

No, India is not paradise. Just last February the Hindu nationalist B.J.P. government in the state of Gujarat stirred up a pogrom by Hindus against Muslims that left 600 Muslims, and dozens of Hindus, dead. It was a shameful incident, and in a country with 150 million Muslims — India has the largest Muslim minority in the world — it was explosive. And do you know what happened?

Nothing happened.

The rioting didn’t spread anywhere. One reason is the long history of Indian Muslims and Hindus living together in villages and towns, sharing communal institutions and mixing their cultures and faiths. But the larger reason is democracy. The free Indian press quickly exposed how the local Hindu government had encouraged the riots for electoral purposes, and the national B.J.P. had to distance itself from Gujarat because it rules with a coalition, many of whose members rely on Muslim votes to get re-elected. Democracy in India forces anyone who wants to succeed nationally to appeal across ethnic lines.

“Even when Gujarat was burning, practically the whole of India was at peace — that is the normal pattern here,” said Syed Shahabuddin, editor of Muslim India, a monthly magazine, and a former Indian diplomat. “India is a democracy, and more than that, India is a secular democracy, at least in principle, and it does maintain a certain level of aspiration and hope for Muslims. . . . If there were no democracy in India, there would be chaos and anarchy, because so many different people are aspiring for their share of the cake.” It is precisely because of the “constitutional framework here,” added Mr. Shahabuddin, that Indian Muslims don’t have to resort to terrorism as a minority: “You can always ask for economic and political justice here.”

It is for all these reasons that the U.S. is so wrong not to press for democratization in the Arab and Muslim worlds. Is it an accident that India has the largest Muslim minority in the world, with plenty of economic grievances, yet not a single Indian Muslim was found in Al Qaeda? Is it an accident that the two times India and Pakistan fought full-scale wars, 1965 and 1971, were when Pakistan had military rulers? Is it an accident that when Pakistan has had free elections, the Islamists have never won more than 6 percent of the vote?

Is it an accident that the richest man in India is an Indian Muslim software entrepreneur, while the richest man in Pakistan, I will guess, is from one of the 50 feudal families who have dominated that country since its independence? Is it an accident that the only place in the Muslim world where women felt empowered enough to demand equal prayer rights in a mosque was in the Indian city of Hyderabad? No, all of these were products of democracy. If Islam is ever to undergo a reformation, as Christianity and Judaism did, it’s only going to happen in a Muslim democracy.

People say Islam is an angry religion. I disagree. It’s just that a lot of Muslims are angry, because they live under repressive regimes, with no rule of law, where women are not empowered and youth have no voice in their future. What is a religion but a mirror on your life?

Message from India to the world: Context matters — change the political context within which Muslims live their lives and you will change a lot.


Are we headed in the right direction?

Chaltahai, what is encouraging about Friedman’s essay is that he recognizes that both India and Pakistan share same ethnic and brain stock. Even if Pakistan has been unsuccessful in its experiments with democracy, still there are many common grounds for both nations to sit down and work together.

Happy Independence day to you. I was going to send you a bottle of Johnie Walker, but Roman visited me last night.

Thanks buddy. I am going out with a few fellow Indians today to paint the town Blue. (Johnny Walker) that is.

You are absolutely correct. With such great minds and unified cultures of the two countries, we should certainly be able to get over our differences. Nothing a few JW's can't solve.:)

nice article, a little overly simplistic in some areas but generally thought provoking.

Re: Independence Celebration but now what?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
......
Just across the border in Pakistan — where the people have the same basic blood, brains and civilizational heritage as here — 50 years of failed democracy, military coups and imposed religiosity have produced 30,000 madrassahs — Islamic schools, which have replaced a collapsed public school system and churn out Pakistani youth who know only the Koran and hostility toward non-Muslims.

[/quote]

"imposed religiosity" follows when you don't have "jobs", "political stability" etc.

30,000 madrassahs, may be more, why? because people can't afford to send their kids to a "public" school or a 'secular' education institute.

Islamic schools have NOT replaced Public school system. Public school system is ever thriving/growing. I see this a failed analysis.

"Pakistani youth" are not churned out by "Koran" or hostility towards non-Muslims, more youth kill each other for sake of nationalism (Punjabi, Sindhi, Mohajir etc.) than religion.

[quote]

No, India is not paradise. Just last February the Hindu nationalist B.J.P. government in the state of Gujarat stirred up a pogrom by Hindus against Muslims that left 600 Muslims, and dozens of Hindus, dead. It was a shameful incident, and in a country with 150 million Muslims — India has the largest Muslim minority in the world — it was explosive. And do you know what happened?

Nothing happened.
[/quote]

Many Indian Muslims here in US tell different story, they told that violence did spread to different cities, villages and Muslims were burnt alongwith their properties. Some human rights activists visited and confirmed tha too.

"Nothing happened" is a BS.

[quote]
Is it an accident that the richest man in India is an Indian Muslim software entrepreneur, while the richest man in Pakistan, I will guess, is from one of the 50 feudal families who have dominated that country since its independence?
[/quote]

That is the best thing India did, remove feudalism from its face while Pakistan continued with it, which proved to be a disaster. And this disaster continues today.

The mass murder of Muslims in India, that is worse than anything that occurred in Pakistan lately... Worst of all, the langda PM himself was behind this, along with that no good joker Advani...

i agree with you it is just immoral just to talk about kasmiri mulims's
rights while ignoring gujarati muslim's rights. or pakistan was afraid if they too much talk about it refugees may stream across the border
or it wil make only matters worse for indian mulsims

rvikz, what do you want us to do? Send in our forces and take over Gujrat? As for the moral support, we offerred our sympathies to the Muslims of Gujrat, and this is the best we can do, since the people of Gujrat choose India as their home, too bad you hindus started slaughtering them, and now they are caught in their tails between their legs. As for Kashmir, thats a totally different story and since that rightly belongs to us, we will continue to screw your forces over there.

spock actually kashmiris are majaorityy in their own state
there is no attempt to make kashmir like tibet. it is pundits are driven out . gujart and kashmir cant be homogensied in to one faith.

Too bad the world’s biggest democracy sat on their butts and watched 2000 muslim (minority) being burnt alive and did nothing about it.

God bless Ol’ Secular India! :nook: :nook:

India what?

World's Largest Democracy? Secular? IT market?

Yeah all that

So what. Pakistanis ain't care about it.

Btw, it was India who started 71 war. Not Pakistan. Author needs to revise his history class.

Come on guys...give us the due credit. You know what the man wrote is true. The President is Muslim but you say that's a token. In which case we have a lot of tokens. So you think the richest Indian is also a token? You think all his money is fake that the Govt minted and gave him to establish a token?

Democracy, tolerance. development, education, diversity, debate, innovation, soul. INDIA

The Brits deprived us of centuries of development. We'll catch up.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ArjunMahavir: **
Come on guys...give us the due credit. You know what the man wrote is true. The President is Muslim but you say that's a token. In which case we have a lot of tokens. So you think the richest Indian is also a token? You think all his money is fake that the Govt minted and gave him to establish a token?**

What's the use of Muslim President, who can't even help victims of Gujarat Genocide

Democracy, tolerance. development, education, diversity, debate, innovation, soul. INDIA

Yes, white man has just shown you stars in daylight.

*The Brits deprived us of centuries of development. We'll catch up. *

I don't wanna see Pakistan to be like India.

Pakistan is different. India is different.

[/QUOTE]