In the Messenger of Allah you have an Excellent Example...

Society Religion & Philosophy
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… but for what??

Religious “authorities” will tell you that one has to “follow the Prophet’s example” in EVERYTHING one does… In support, a verse from the Qur’an is interpreted to suit the assertion providing the key to a pandora’s box of eccentricities…“sit when you drink”.. “don’t stand when you urinate”.. wear your trousers above the ankle", “cover your head”, “use miswak”.. and so forth because a bunch of people who passed before you agreed that the Prophet and his followers may have done it too.

Let’s see what that verse is:

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(33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a ÃõÓúæóÉñ ÍóÓóäóÉñ for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah

PakistaniAbroad: ÃõÓúæóÉñ ÍóÓóäóÉñ has been interpreted as “an excellent example” .. “a beautiful pattern of conduct” or “good example”..(please keep the part in italics in mind.. we’ll inshallah add two and two together later).

Now this is all fine and dandy till the interpretors start stretching the interpretation of “excellent example” to mundane activities of daily life.

What is this “excellent example” the Messenger is supposed to be?? For that we must study the verse in context .. something the person quoting this verse to suit his/her needs will NEVER do to avoid having to explain their wild interpretation.

To understand the context we need to start reading from 33:1 onwards to see what is happening and what these verses are really addressing.

The reader who has done such a reading will realize that the discussion is about hypocrites not having enough belief in Allah nor courage to fight in Allah’s way and the Messenger is being instructed to tell them to fight in Allah’s way and believe in Allah to support them.

[33:20] They think that the Confederates have not withdrawn; and if the Confederates should come (again), they would wish they were in the deserts (wandering) among the Bedouins, and seeking news about you (from a safe distance); and if they were in your midst, they would fight but little.

[33:21] Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

[33:22] When the Believers saw the Confederate forces, they said: “This is what Allah and his Messenger had promised us, and Allah and His Messenger told us what was true.” And it only added to their faith and their zeal in obedience.

PakistaniAbroad: Now ask yourselves.. is it fair to use the bit of this verse to impose different scholarly rulings on you?

And for those who concur with the traditional explanation for ÃõÓúæóÉñ ÍóÓóäóÉñ; here are other instances (in context) where this term has been used in the Qur’an.

[60:1] O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! …

PakistaniAbroad: Who’s the audience?? Those who believed with the Prophet.. and it should apply to you and me should we aspire to be believers in the Prophet. Right?.. please read on.

[60:4] There is for you an ÃõÓúæóÉñ ÍóÓóäóÉñ in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: “We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone”: But not when Abraham said to his father: “I will pray for forgiveness for thee, though I have no power (to get) aught on thy behalf from Allah.” (They prayed):"Our Lord! in Thee do we trust, and to Thee do we turn in repentance: to Thee is (our) Final Goal.

PakistaniAbroad: There is that ÃõÓúæóÉñ ÍóÓóäóÉñ again and following it is the real meaning of it.. please do note it’s not about wearing your shalwar as high as Abraham used to, nor following his diet plans, but to believe in Allah Alone.. or in other words monotheism

There is one more instance so we read on.

[60:5] “Our Lord! Make us not a (test and) trial for the Unbelievers, but forgive us, our Lord! for Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise.”

[60:6] There was indeed in them an ÃõÓúæóÉñ ÍóÓóäóÉñ for you to follow,- for those whose hope is in Allah and in the Last Day. But if any turn away, truly Allah is Free of all Wants, Worthy of all Praise.

PakistaniAbroad: The intelligent reader has suddenly caught on and noticed that the part in red is an exact match of the part in italics (
ßóÇäó íóÑúÌõæ Çááøóåó æóÇáúíóæúãó ÇáúÂÎöÑó ) in 33:21 posted at the beginnig.

Thus we are told in no uncertain terms by Allah what following these Prophets actually means. It is the same religion… the message is of monotheism and the examples are these noble messengers.

[4:125] And who has a better religion than he who submits himself entirely to Allah? And he is the doer of good (to others) and follows the faith of Ibrahim, the upright one, and Allah took Ibrahim as a friend

PakistaniAbroad: Do not let the religious mob coerce us into misinterpreting and relegating beautiful verses of the Qur’an down to interpretations that command silly and mundane daily activities. Allah made the religion easy for us… let’s keep it that way.

Disclaimer This post is how I understand the Qur’anic verses today.. Inshallah i’ll still be studying the Qur’an and hope that Allah will continue to help me understand it better which may change my understanding of the verses quoted

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Everyone interprets differently, and i commend on your desire to acquire as much knowledge as possible. People who follow the Prophet Muhammad's(SAW) every sunnah are in fact the ones that are simplifying their lives.
Allow me to explain.

Suppose someone asks you for directions to a certain destination, and the destination is rather difficult to find, you give this person detailed directions to the place and send him on his way.
Now suppose after this person has left, you encounter another person who is requesting directions to the same place, so instead of giving him detailed directions as well, you tell him to simply follow the person who you just gave directions to first, as you are sure that the first person will reach the desired destination.
Since the ultimate destination of all muslims is paradise and we know that Allah (SWT) gave specific directions to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) on how to get there, then why not just follow the person who was sent to lead all muslims to paradise.

and Allah (SWT) knows best

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Yes ofcourse, following the messenger (by submitting ourselves entirely to Allah) is an obligation, but what is submitting entirely to Allah? and what is following the messenger??? Please read..

Yes the purpose is to submit ourselves entirely to Allah but this is where a lot of people get mistaken...

But no, by your Lord, they shall not be believers unless they accept you as judge in their disputes, then find in their hearts no adverse feeling against what you decided, but surrender to it in complete submission. (4:65)

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find written down in the Torah and the Injeel, and who bids them to the Fair and forbids them the Unfair, and makes lawful for them the good things, and makes unlawful for them the impure things, and relieves them of their burdens and of the shackles that were upon them. So, those who believe in him, and honor him, and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him- they are the ones who acquire success. (7:157)

We notice that the Prophet here has the authority to make things lawful and unlawful, hence following those things is of much importance. The things you talk about.. using the siwak and the trouser over ankles thing are orders of the Prophet.

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Well , I am not an authority by any means on religion and even my understanding of many issues is limited. However, I believe that the Prophet (PBUH) has expounded on matters that are and were not clear and that pertained to daily life. Things like using maswak and many other such things are Sunnah of our Prophet(PBUH). If we follow that and act upon it then well and good and it is due to our love for him but this by no means is fardh on us.
1) There was a time when I ( due to classes and then job) stopped saying sunaats during namaz. For long it continued. However, I was always interested in knowing about it. Do we say our sunnat rakats just because its the sunnah of our Holy Prophet(PBUH). What if we dont offer them?

2) regarding the issue of "unchi shalwar" wearing shalwar above your ankles... Well, couple of days back there was a program on TV and some one asked exactly the same question. Both the alims from the Shia as well as from the Sunni community who were invited there agreed that 'there is a need to do what we call "IJTEHAD.' Wearing shalwar above ankles and Prophet Mohammeds sayings regarding that ( some of which are not authentic) were in a particular context. I 'll try to paraphrase it, the alims agreed that the order was given at a time when people to show off their wealth and pomp would wear turbans, cover themselves with shawls and chaadars such that it set them apart from a common man. Hence, since such a thing is no more rampant or prevalent in the society, so we can (sort of over look ) that.

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Tomorrow when science will prove that using miswak is indeed best for the teeth due to.........etc..... and when the West will start using it, some people will quickly start using it also.

Such is our condition!

Our prophet said: "He who revived a Sunnah out of my Sunan, which has died after me, for him is the reward like the reward of those who acted upon it, without any decrease in that reward. He who introduced some evil innovations which Allah and His Messenger did not approve has (a burden of sin upon him) like the sins of one who acted according to it, without their sins being mitigated thereby in the least."

The Prophet Muhammad (saw) also said, "Whoever resembles a people is one of them." (Recorded by Abu Dawud)

Allah (SWT) said: "And never will the Jews and Christians be pleased with you until you follow their religions." (Al-Baqarah 2:120)

In another hadith the Prophet pointed out how a time will come when the Muslims will imitate the non-Muslims so closely that they will closely imitate whatever they do, even in trivial and illogical matters. Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri reported Allah's Messenger as saying, *"You will tread the same path as was trodden by those before you, inch by inch and step by step, so much so that even if they enter the hole of a lizard you will follow them in that also." We said, "Messenger of Allah, do you mean the Jews and Christians (by the words 'those before you'?" He said, "Who else (than these two religious groups)?" (related by Muslim) *

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by uman786: *
Suppose someone asks you for directions to a certain destination, and the destination is rather difficult to find, you give this person detailed directions to the place and send him on his way.
Now suppose after this person has left, you encounter another person who is requesting directions to the same place, so instead of giving him detailed directions as well, you tell him to simply follow the person who you just gave directions to first, as you are sure that the first person will reach the desired destination.
Since the ultimate destination of all muslims is paradise and we know that Allah (SWT) gave specific directions to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) on how to get there, then why not just follow the person who was sent to lead all muslims to paradise. and Allah (SWT) knows best
[/QUOTE]

Staying with your analogy, you are forgetting the map I gave that person and asked him to follow it, and others to follow that person just because he was the person who'd give that map to them. Now even hundreds of years later, the map exists and everyone can follow it and find the right path.. that map is the Qur'an.

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context. I 'll try to paraphrase it, the alims agreed that the order was given at a time when people to show off their wealth and pomp would wear turbans, cover themselves with shawls and chaadars such that it set them apart from a common man. Hence, since such a thing is no more rampant or prevalent in the society, so we can (sort of over look ) that.<<

yeah now alims should come up with a new ruling and say everyone shall drive the same size car because people who drive BMWs and SUVs show off and set themselves apart from ones who drive Suzukis and Honda Civic.
but then again...people who drive Suzukis set themselves apart from ones who drive Vespa scooters. Vespa drivers set themselves apart from bicycle riders. And have you seen a bicycle rider passing by a walking man on a dirt road? he usually does not even say salaam to the walking guy ..probably thinks of himself as the nawab of Hyderabad or something. Bottom line everyone should start walking so that we are all at the same level or put your money where your mouth is and buy us all SUVs.

Now get off the info super highway...because this is only affordable by elites...common man does not even know how to read the filmy gossip on the mungphali wala lifaafa.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

Staying with your analogy, you are forgetting the map I gave that person and asked him to follow it, and others to follow that person just because he was the person who'd give that map to them. Now even hundreds of years later, the map exists and everyone can follow it and find the right path.. that map is the Qur'an.
[/QUOTE]

now that map had symobols which were explained to the person to whom the map was given....

people started ignoring the person's words and thought the map was good enuff....

now they try to use their own logic to understand these symbols and end up doing something wrong....

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ammarr: *

Yes the purpose is to submit ourselves entirely to Allah but this is where a lot of people get mistaken...
[/quote]

well who are these people?? the ones who interpret "following the example" as submitting to Allah alone" or the ones who think it means following the Porphets dietary habits and/or dental hygine?

[quote]
But no, by your Lord, they shall not be believers unless they accept you as judge in their disputes, then find in their hearts no adverse feeling against what you decided, but surrender to it in complete submission. (4:65)
[/quote]

once again ammarr.. where is the context?? why do we constantly see cut paste jobs of verses sans context trying to prove something that the verses do not address or intend to convey?

Here's the context for the readers to evaluate:

[4:60] Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who declare that they believe in the revelations that have come to thee and to those before thee? Their (real) wish is to resort together for judgment (in their disputes) to the Evil One, though they were ordered to reject him. But Satan's wish is to lead them astray far away (from the right).

[4:61] When it is said to them: "Come to what Allah hath revealed, and to the Messenger": Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust.

[4:64] We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

[4:65] But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

PakistaniAbroad: Readers, please decide for yourself.. are we to trivialize the Glorious Qur'anic verses to stipulations of how high to wear our izaars or are these timeless verses telling us something else??

And to understand how the Prophet judged the 'disputes'.. or how all disputes are supposed to be judged.. we need to understand Allah's system:

[2:213] Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed;

[6:114] Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." ** They know full well, **to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt

[5:48] To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed,........

There are other verses with similar messages but I guess by now the intelligent reader has understood how the Prophet judged matters. What's important is not to make a mockery of the verses and use them to justify obscure scholarly rulings.

quote...

We notice that the Prophet here has the authority to make things lawful and unlawful, hence following those things is of much importance. The things you talk about.. using the siwak and the trouser over ankles thing are orders of the Prophet.
[/QUOTE]

Once again.. context... who is the audience here??

[7:155] And Moses chose seventy of his people for Our place of meeting: when they were seized with violent quaking, he prayed: "O my Lord! if it had been Thy will Thou couldst have destroyed, long before, both them and me: wouldst Thou destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? this is no more than Thy trial: by it Thou causest whom Thou wilt to stray, and Thou leadest whom Thou wilt into the right path. Thou art our Protector: so forgive us and give us Thy mercy; for Thou art the best of those who forgive.

[7:156] "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-

PakistaniAbroad: Thus Verse 7:157 is a continuation of 7:156 and the audience is the followers of Moses..

[7:157] "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

PakistaniAbroad: once again, our intelligent readers have quickly grasped the correct interpretation of 7:157...it's all in the part in red.. following the light..

The audience are the followers of Moses who already have Allah's Book with them.. thus it's essential to command them to accept The Qur'an as the final testament in which Allah provides new commandments for them in terms of what's Halaal and what's Haraam and what's prohibited and what's allowed .. in fact.. all the changes since their scripture to last till the end of time.

Such are the beautiful versers of the Qur'an.. their context and the religion they lay down for us.. it's a pity sectarians have enforced their own myopic interpretations on timeless verses and tried to use and abuse them to mean something totally unrelated..

Once again.. this is not about following the Prophet as in emulating his daily chores.. it's about the direction he is leading us towards.only right path of submitting to Allah Alone and following His judgements in His Book sent down with the last Prophet.

Disclaimer This post is how I understand the Qur'anic verses today.. Inshallah i'll still be studying the Qur'an and hope that Allah will continue to help me understand it better which may change my understanding of the verses quoted

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You forgot the main thing, PA…The Creator…For whose pleasure all this was being done…He :swt: approved the Holy Prophet :saw: in almost all that he did…Allah :swt: has also instructed the Holy Prophet :saw: in many Ayahs on something which he was supposed to approach something in a different way…The Mira’aj was an opener for many answers…And anyways, doesn’t it say that success lies in Islam?..After all, almost 1,500 years later, people try to follow his :saw:'s example to the soul…I would consider that success…

…The As-haba-e-Karaam were not called RadiaAllahta’alaAnho for nothing …They followed the Holy Prophet :saw: as close as possible and were succesful…History is its witness…Even western history is proof of that…It’s all a game of perspectives…Of course you must realize that without the Sunnah, Islam is incomplete…How would you know how to perform Wuz’u or Salat?..The Holy Qur’an doesn’t say that…Just like that, the Qur’an is a guide to betterment of the individual for the betterment of the whole and in turn doing it for the sake of Allah (SWT) earns great rewards…The Sunnah and the Ahadith on the other hand are a guide to personal enlightenment and excellence and too have their rewards…

…Don’t you sometimes wonder, how a man, unlettered, simple and a shepherd can attain so great a height amongst the nations of all ages?..Don’t you think about the ferocious times of Arabia at the time and one man…A man…Stood up and brought the message of Allah :swt: single-handedly…PA, don’t you wish you were like that man, a man who can bring about change? Well, if you do then you have the most excellent example in the Sunnah of our Holy Prophet :saw:, and he has left you with clear teachings on how to be like him…Forget Lee Iacocca and Deepak Chopra…:hehe:…How many people do you think will die for their honor…:smiley:

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PA, i think i’ll just let the ‘intelligent readers’ make their decisions because I certainly dont think your last post deserves a response.

I did like the initial post (the first one) which showed the connecting ayaat and got to a precise final point. If you want I will next time post a link to the complete surah so the readers can check the context themselves.

The verses I posted showed exactly that, and you further emphasized the point.. that when people are told to come to what Allah has revealed and to the messenger, they turn away.

You seem to take things out of context, let me be precise

I have never opposed nor ever will oppose that the sole purpose of the messengers being sent, and for the Quran being revealed was so that we could follow the monetheist belief, that Allah is One, and there is no god beside him. Yes this is the sole purpose, khalass. The Prophet himself taught tawheed for yrs (i think it was 10+ yrs) before he laid down the rules for the people? why?? because tawheed formed the foundation of EVERYTHING, and every single one of islam’s laws.

You correctly state that the verses of the Holy Quran are timeless. The Quran is complete, no doubt!! However, the same Quran tells us to follow the Prophet :saw:

Allow me to emphasize my point

At one place you state that the Quran is complete and no, we dont need to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet. But then again, the simple order of salaat which is mentioned many times in the Quran, the exact procedure of this salaah can not be found in the Quran. And if i remember correctly, you did post something about it… but you had to jump across verses and pick a few from here and a few from there to build a very VERY loose system of salaat.

Now as you say, the Quran is fully detailed, and easy to understand, do you really believe that every person would be expected to do the above? Jump across verses and pick them out of context (isn’t this what you accused me of doing???) to decide how to perform salaat?

The truth, PA, is that the Quran IS COMPLETE. IT ALSO TELLS US TO FOLLOW AND OBEY THE PROPHET :saw: The authenticity of our current hadith literature is a different story, but yes WE ARE commanded to follow the Prophet :saw: that does not, in any way, mean that the Quran is not complete!!!

By the way sorry for the tangent, i ONLY went off on it because you mentioned that the verses of the Quran do not concern with daily chores and dietry habits etc.

and yes, i do agree that this sectarian crap has gotten way out of hand, and peole do misinterpret the Quran to their liking. May Allah grant us all the proper understanding of the Quran.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
now that map had symobols which were explained to the person to whom the map was given....
[/quote]

incorrect, the map was explained in detail for it's audience.. not just the instructor.

[quote]
started ignoring the person's words and thought the map was good enuff....
[/quote]

not their fault.. the map said so... and as a matter of fact.. what's more important?? the map which has the directions or the person who was given the responsibility to give that map to you?

[quote]
y try to use their own logic to understand these symbols and end up doing something wrong....
[/QUOTE]

how do you know?? have you reached your destination to declare those trying to follow the map as misguided??

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just the relevant verses should suffice :slight_smile:

yes and we just demonstrated that nowhere does it come down to emulating his daily activities necessitated by his human nature.

Incorrect. I will follow the Prophet in whatever the Qur’an instructs me.. I only find verses that instruct me to follow him and earlier prophets in following monotheism as a religion and be steadfast and fight in the way of Allah.. if I come across something that suggests I have to emulate the Prophet’s facial hair style i’ll have to comply.

So we’ve come down to this argument now? Failing to prove that we need to follow the Prophet’s daily activities from the Qur’an, how can you prove the same by using the argument above?

Suppose for an instance your assertion is true.. that the Qur’an doesn’t instruct about Salat (although it does).. how does that prove the assumption that we now have to follow every scholarly ruling on matters like table manners??

Anyone who’s a student of the Qur’an knows very well the topics in the Qur’an are not contained within a single chapter.. The only way one can begin to understand is to establish the contexts and then collect all such verses that address the topic under research in one place and then try to organize them to come to an understanding.

Secondly it’s not ME who says Qur’an is fully detailed and easy to understand.. it’s Allah who says this in the Qur’an.. defy Him. Maybe the Alimghty wanted people to read the whole Qur’an and ‘jump’ across verses to gather the correct information.. (btw i didnt accuse you of jumping verses.. i just pointed out your use of verses out of context).

ammarr we just discussed that above and debunked the evidence you presented to claim that ‘follow the prophet’ bit means “follow him in his daily activities”.

How can you come a full circle and claim it all over again without providing any further proof we are yet to debunk using it’s true context??

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChannMahi: *
yeah now alims should come up with a new ruling and say everyone shall drive the same size car because people who drive BMWs and SUVs show off and set themselves apart from ones who drive Suzukis and Honda Civic.
but then again...people who drive Suzukis set themselves apart from ones who drive Vespa scooters. Vespa drivers set themselves apart from bicycle riders. And have you seen a bicycle rider passing by a walking man on a dirt road? he usually does not even say salaam to the walking guy ..probably thinks of himself as the nawab of Hyderabad or something. Bottom line everyone should start walking so that we are all at the same level or put your money where your mouth is and buy us all SUVs.

Now get off the info super highway...because this is only affordable by elites...common man does not even know how to read the filmy gossip on the mungphali wala lifaafa.
[/QUOTE]

Now thats what I call a derogatory remark. Chan gee tusi wah guru de karo.... there is a difference in stating your opinion, disagreeing on something and mocking something we don't have much knowledge about.
I merely presented an argument, what I heard from various scholars and not one. I am not an authority on such matters. THere is a separate thread regarding this issue. Its not abt cars, its abt standing in one row and offering prayers, bowing down together irrespective of your wealth or status. That was the norm of those days, hence such orders. Now, certainly the time/situation/condition is not the same. Ah well...