In response to "The Watcher"

As salaam alaikum,
I hope everyone reads this post in the best of health. “Watcher” inshallah I will go through all those references you gave. Before then I’d like to give a few of my own
We find clear narrations that sunni’s believe that their will be a “sighting of Allah really not figuratively.” Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, p.47 & Vol. V p.179 & Vol. Vl, p.33
Rather they contain even anthropomorphism to Allah - the Glorified - and that he laughs,Ibid,. Vol.lV, p.226 & Vol. V, pp.47-48; Sahih Muslim, Vol.1 pp.114-122 comes and walks and descends to this world, Ibid., Vol. Vlll, p.197
or even that he uncovers his leg that has a distinguishing sign. Ibid., Vol. Vlll, p.197 Moreover, they say that He (Subbhanahu) places His foot in hell, whereat it will be filled saying: at all, at all; beside other things and descriptions from which Allah - the Glorified and the Mighty - is free and far.
Ibid., Vol. Vlll, p.187, and on page 202 he confirms Allah’s having a hand and fingers.
When Umar created new islamic law by his own authority as you see in the following reference, he said:
Ne’ma-al Bid’a Hadha
Do you know what is the God’s rule upon a person who, himself, creats a new islamic law and announce it publicly, and is happy with his innovation?
------- Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 3.227 -------
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven.” Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, “Allah’s Apostle died and the people continued observing that
(i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it
remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar’s Caliphate.” 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, “I went out in the company of 'Umar bin al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, ‘In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in
congregation!)’. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka’b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked,
‘What an excellent Bid’a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but
the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.’ He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night.”
------- Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 3.227 -------

Isn’t the part that is written in red, recited while you do you’re prayers? “Salat is better then sleep?” Can you explain why it’s ok for Umar to add this in namaz?

I found this also:
This concerns pointing the finger during the salat
Omar was the one who instituted this practice. As
far as my knowledge asserts, I have not come across
a hadith that asserts it’s truthfulness. Here is the reference
He [Omar] was saying prayers once when at the verse
’ Then Serve the Lord of this House ’ he pointed
his finger to the Ka’ba. Shah Waliullah remarks that
a gesture of this kind is permitted in prayers.
Sunni references:
- ’ Al Faruq ’ Life of Umar the great-Second caliph
of Islam, Volume II of II, page 314
Shibli Numani, Publishers Sh. Muhammad Ashraf Lahore, Pakistan
- Izalatul Khifa, Volume III of IV, page 346
Shah Wali Ullah Muhaddith Dehlavi,
Publishers Qadeemi Kitab Khana, Karachi Pakistan.

Also the book ’ The Reliance of Traveller ’ doesn’t mention
a hadith in this context (as far as practiced by the Prophet,
May Allah Bless him and his progeny) … If this was practiced
by the Prophet(pbuh&hf), please prove it!
When Umar created new islamic law by his own authority as you see in the following reference, he said:
Ne’ma-al Bid’a Hadha
Do you know what is the God’s rule upon a person who, himself, creats a new islamic law and announce it publicly, and is happy with his innovation?
------- Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 3.227 -------
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere Faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven.” Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, “Allah’s Apostle died and the people continued observing that
(i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it
remained as it was during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of 'Umar’s Caliphate.” 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Abdul Qari said, “I went out in the company of 'Umar bin al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups. A man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him. So, 'Umar said, ‘In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (Reciter) (i.e. let them pray in
congregation!)’. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubai bin Ka’b. Then on another night I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, 'Umar remarked,
‘What an excellent Bid’a (i.e. innovation in religion) this is; but
the prayer which they do not perform, but sleep at its time is better than the one they are offering.’ He meant the prayer in the last part of the night. (In those days) people used to pray in the early part of the night.”
------- Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 3.227 -------

Also umar also decided to point his finger during Salat and “claim” it’s ok:
This concerns pointing the finger during the salat
Omar was the one who instituted this practice. As
far as my knowledge asserts, I have not come across
a hadith that asserts it’s truthfulness. Here is the reference
He [Omar] was saying prayers once when at the verse
’ Then Serve the Lord of this House ’ he pointed
his finger to the Ka’ba. Shah Waliullah remarks that
a gesture of this kind is permitted in prayers.
Sunni references:
- ’ Al Faruq ’ Life of Umar the great-Second caliph
of Islam, Volume II of II, page 314
Shibli Numani, Publishers Sh. Muhammad Ashraf Lahore, Pakistan
- Izalatul Khifa, Volume III of IV, page 346
Shah Wali Ullah Muhaddith Dehlavi,
Publishers Qadeemi Kitab Khana, Karachi Pakistan.

Henceforth we can also conceive the position of 'Umar and his endeavour
to confine caliphate within Quraysh, 'Umar was known of exerting his opinion (ijtihad) against the texts, even during the lifetime of the Prophet (S). The best evidences that prove our claim can be saught in: Performing prayer (salat al-mayyit) on hypocrites, Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.2 p.76 the Thursday misfortune, Ibid., Vol.1,p.37 and his forbidding to announce the good tidings of Paradise. Ibid., Vol.1, "bab man laqiya Allah bi al-'imam wa huwa ghayr shakk fih dakhala al-jannah, p.45

"Umar ibn al-khattab said more then 70 times,"Had Ali not been there Umar would have perished."Sunni references:Manaqib al-Khwarazmi, p.48; al-Istiab, Vol. 3 p.39;
Tadhkirat al-Sibt, p.87; Matalib al-saul, p.13; Tafsir al-Nayasbui,
on Surat al-Ahqaf; Fayd al-Qadir, Vol.IV,p.357

Umar threatened to kill anyone refusing to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr, declaring: Kill him, he is seditious!Then he threatened those who lingered in ‘Ali’s house to burn the house with whoever was inside it. Sunni reference: Ibid., Vol. Vlll, p.26 Ta’rikh al-Tabari;Ta’rikh al-khulafar’ of Ibn Qutaybah.

We believe 100% that the Prophet and his family (Ahlul Bayt) is perfect. Are you familar with the Holy Quran? 33:33
Now let’s get back to the Ahul al Bayt (family of the Prophet) in the Holy Quran Chapter 33 verse 33 it says: “It has always been the will of Allah to keep from you all stigma (of sin, ignorance, and disbelief) O people of the House and to purify you with a perfect purification.”
Anyone claiming this ayat of the Holy Quran isn’t regarding the Ahlul al Bayt I strongly suggest you check out these sunni references regarding the story of Hadees-e-Kisa:
(1)Sahih Muslim, Kitab Fazaele Al-Sahabah Chapter Fazaele Ahlebaital Nabi. Part Vll pg.130.
(2) Imam Ahmad Hanbal, Musnad Part 1 page 331, Part 3 pages 151-259 & 285, Part IV pages 5 & 107, Part Vl pages 292, 296, 298, 304, and 322.
(3) Sahih Tirmizi, K-44 Surat H-7 K-56, B-31, and 60 (plus more)
I’d also like you to refer to Sura Ashura ayat 23 regarding the Ahlul al-Bayt:“…Say (O’ Muhammad unto mankind): I do not ask of you any reward for it (preaching the message)'but love for my relatives
(Ahlul-Bayt)…” Holy Quran (42:23)
Anyone claiming this ayat isn’t regarding the Ahlul al-Bayt I suggest that you look further in the Holy Quran until you find
Surat Tahirim Sura 66 (section 1- 5)
1.“O Prophet! Why dost thou forbid (unto thyself) what God hath made lawful unto thee? Thou seekest to please thy wives; and God is Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful.”
2.“Indeed hath God made lawful for you in dissolution of your oaths (in such cases), and God (alone) is your Lord, and He is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.”
3. When the Prophet confided unto one of his wives a matter but when she divulged it (unto others) and God apprised him thereof, he made known a part of it and avoided a part; so when he informed her of it, she siad: “Who informed thee of this?” He said: “Informed, me, the All-Knowing, the All-Aware.”
4.If ye two turn (in repentance) unto Him, then indeed your hearts are inclined (to this) but if ye two back up each other against him, then verily God it is Who is his Proyector, and Gabriel, and the (most) Virtuous one among the believers, and the angerls thereafter will back (him) up.
5. Happly his Lord if he divorceth you, will give him in your place wives *better than you submissive, faithful, obedient, repentant, prayerful, observers of fast, widows, and virgins
(In King Fahad’s Printed Quran, the sunni king of saudi, in paranthesis it says the names of Aisha the daughter of abu bakr and Hafsa the daughter of Umar regarding teasing the Holy Prophet,disclosing of secrets, and backbiting about him which later on the messenger angel informed the Prophet of, and that Allah would be pleased with the Prophet if he divorces them and in there place he’ll recieve better wives)
So how could the verses 33:33 and Sura Ashura ayat 23 be refering to the wives of the Prophet if later on we find that Allah will be pleased with the Prophet divorcing Aisha and Hafsa (according to the sunni quran of King Fahad) And in there place the Holy Prophet will recieve better wives?
(ie:faithful, submissive, obedient, repentant, etc)
Now since we’ve gone over that Imam Ali (AS) is the rightful succesor of the Holy Prophet, let’s move on to the number of Imams:
“There will be twelve commanders (Amir)” … “All of them will be from Quraish.” Sunni reference:[1]Sahih al-Bukhari 9:329 (Arabic-English version)
“The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs” … “All of them will be from Quraish.” Sunni reference:[2] Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaarah, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1452, Tradition #5 Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1009, Tradition #4477.
“The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men.” Sunni reference:[3] Ibid p1010, Tradition #4478
“Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs.” Sunni reference:[4] Ibid p1010, Tradition #4480
So why is there any controversy at all regarding the Imams? In the Quran Allah stated to love them 62:23 and that their perfect 33:33. (as mentioned before) wouldn’t you rather follow someone whom Allah and the Holy Prophet chose for all Muslims to follow? Whom the Messenger himself has said,“Verily, the parable of my ahl al-bayt is that of the boat of Noah; Whoever gets aboard it is saved, and whoever stays away from it is drowned.” Sunni references

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

1)Mustadrak al-Hakim, Vol2,p.343; Kanz al-ummal, Vol.V,p.95 (2) al-Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, of Ibn Hajar, p.184 Instead of caliphs which are not perfect and therefore are subject to make numerous mistakes during there lifetime?
It’s known that many disputes were there between Banu Hashim and Banu Taym due to Abu Bakr’s ambition to attain calihphate.
Sunni reference: Muhammed Abduh, op cit., Vol1, p.88
Abu Bakr was the same one that made Bibi Fatima angry and she kept away from him and died still being at odds with him.

  • Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter of “The battle of Khaibar”, Arabic-English,
    v5, tradition #546, pp 381-383, also v4, Tradition 325
    A side note- The opinion of the Prophet about he who hurts Fatima:
    The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) had frequently said:
    “Fatimah is a part of me. Whoever makes her angry, makes me angry.”
    Sunni references:
  • Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v5, Traditions #61 and #111
  • Sahih Muslim, section of virtues of Fatimah, v4, pp 1904-5
    Bibi Fatima was so angry at Abu Bakr for not giving her; her rightful inheritance from the Holy Prophet (and various other reasons that I cannot mention at this time) that she did not inform him of her funeral
    Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.546 (page 381)
    And she shunned abu bakr also!
    Sunni references:
  • Tabari, vol IX p 196 [The Events of the Year 11, English version],
  • Tabaqat of Ibne Sad, vol VIII p 29,- Yaqubi History, vol II p 117,
    Why would you follow a person not being perfect? The Holy Prophet chose Imam Ali to be his succesor it’s time you accept it and move on.
    The Holy Prophet said," This man ('Ali) is my brother, and executor and succesor after me; so you should adhere to and obey him."Sunni references:Tarikh al-Tabari, Vol.2 p.319 &
    Tarikh Ibn al-Athir, Vol.2 p.62

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[This message has been edited by Admin (edited October 24, 2000).]

interesting signature you've got there.

now, in a perfect world, i would expect a shia to respond to that and say it's not right. but, its not a perfect world..

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[This message has been edited by Admin (edited October 24, 2000).]

After this, I don’t care what you post. You practice lying in your religion that is part of your faith. That is why you cannot be trusted with anything. Specialy with Islamic issues and references regarding Islamic issues. You provide most irrelevant references and hadiths, I ask you something else you present some irrelevant hadiths regarding totally different matter. Grow up you devient shias. COME TO QURAN ONLY QURAN AND SUNNAH OF PROPHET.

The practice of lying(taqiyyah) in the Shi’ite faith is a very common thing.
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Islam, what I am going to tell you is something that all of us muslims should know about the Shi’ites, this fundamental thing will show us why the Shi’ites can’t be trusted, and why the Shi’ites are such of an enemy to Islam, this article of the Shi’ite faith called Taqayyah (concealment, deception or lying) lets the Shi’ites betray us and lie about Hadeeth and the Quran, this is also why a Shi’ite can never be used as a witness, or why he can not narrate Hadeeth, I myself have when talking to Shi’ites have found out that they always lie about Hadeeth for example one of them told me that there was a Hadeeth in Bukhari cursing all of the sahabah, so I asked him for the proof and he said that he had it, so he gave me a page full of references, all which were irrelevant and have nothing to do with this hadeeth. Another Shi’ite once added on a verse to the quran and tried to tell me that this was the quran when I asked for references again he just refused to tell me, since then that Shi’ite has not been around since.
I also warn all you muslims against the “Muslim” chat rooms, as there are many Shi’ites in them, I have found way over 10 who were on at one time you see they pretend to be Sunni Muslims but they try to infiltrate us by quoting their false Hadeeth and try to mislead us, as they trully despise us Muslims. So dear brothers below is evidence that Shi’ites are allowed to lie and not only that, but encouraged to lie to us Muslims.

Here on gupshup, I have asked some of shi’ites to bring their proofs and references from Quran, but they cannot provide any. They have presented me with irrelevant verses from quran and fabricated hadiths.

Please note that the Shi’ites attribute the following to Abu Abdullah (Ja’far as-Sadiq):

“Mix with them(i.e. non-shia) externally but oppose them internally.” (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.116)** now this Shi’ite hadeeth means that they should mix with us and try to decieve us..It trully shows us Muslims what the Shi’ites are!

“He who conceals his religion has saved it, and he who makes it public has destroyed it.” now this contradicts the Quran as WILL be shown below.

“A believer who does not dissimulate is like a body without a head.” (Tafseer al-Askari) It is also interesting that the Shi’ites article of Faith “Taqayyah” is just like what the Talmudites (jews who follow the Talmud) say about the Goyyims (non-jews,) as all Talmudites say that they should lie to us non-jews..You see this explains a lot about the Shi’ites and their Similarities with the Jews as the Shi’ite sect was started by Abdullah bin Saba’. (a Jew who started the shi’ite religion, just with the intent of trying to destroy the Muslims…

“Nine tenths of religion is taqiyyah (dissimulation), hence one who does not dissimulate has no religion.” (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.110)

This shows us that Shi’ites have to lie to us as if they don’t then they will not be called Muslims by other Shi’ites…it shows us how sick is the Shi’ite faith.
Concerning the verse, “Verily the most noble of you in Allah’s sight is the most God-fearing (atqaakum)” , the Shia attribute the following interpretation of “atqaakum”: "That is, your deeds done by taqiyyah (dissimulation) (Al-I’tiqadat)

So as you can see, the Shi’ites beleive that they should decieve us with their lies, as the Shi’ites hate us, sunni muslims, by calling us worse than dogs…(“Although Allah, the Exalted, has not created a creature worse than a dog, yet a Nasbi (ie. A Sunni) is worse than even a dog.” here is the Shi’te book that this lie came from (Haqqul Yakeen (Persian) Vol 2, P. 516)

So my dear Muslims now you know just a small part of what the Shi’ites say in their books which insult the meaning of Islam with their superstisious ideas and horrible lies against the Sahabah. (the prophets Companions)
Now I will finish of with this magnicificant ayah from the Quran which shows us that Taqayyah (deception, lying etc) is forbidden in Islam.. and the Shi’ites practice this Taqqayah on us Muslims!!! so dear Brothers and Sisters in Islam, Allah states in the Noble Quran: **“Surely those who hide from people the clear proofs and guidance, which we clarified in the Book (Qur’an), will be cursed by Allah and all those who curse.” (2:159) **

And the statement of the Prophet (s.a.w) who said: **“Whoever is asked for knowledge and conceals it will have a bridle of fire around his neck on the Day of Judgement.” (Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi) **

So dear Brothers and Sisters, now Inshallah we can see beyond the Curtain concealing the Shi’ites true beleifs and not just the ones that they wishes to show us… Inshallah Allah will guide us to the truth and may we all see the Shi’ites for what they are… Ameen. Take it easy sir.

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PS: YOU may be servant of Ali, I am servant of Allah, indeed Ali was also servant of Allah, but you perceive not. You worship your Imaam, and I do/will worship my Allah. “to you, your religion and to me my religion” - of Mohammad and his sahaaba and what Allah revealed to Mohammad-the quran. ANd finally, YOU SHIAs can go to hell! Bye bye sir.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif


V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

Watcher,

What part of "respect other people's beliefs and faiths" do you not understand?

This is your final warning. Even with all the good messages that you are capable of posting, we will be forced to restrict your posting rights simply because you cannot follow a simple rule. Is that what you are aiming for? It seems so.