Imran vs Lillee (purely as Fast Bowlers)

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1

Lillee has quite a reputation as an awesome bowler in some circles and Imran is seen more as an all-rounder but how good was Imran with the ball compared to Lillee?

I’ve decided to compare Lillee with Imran Khan both as fast bowlers.

Imran and Lillee are from the same era so a comparison between them makes a lot of sense, also the fact that Imran was an all-rounder who averaged 52.77 with the bat for 10 years and 1 month (Dec 81 - Jan 92) should make it easy for Lillee to win this one.

Career Record

355 wkts. 23.92 avg. 52.0 S/R. 2.75 Eco. 5.1 WPM for Lillee
362 wkts. 22.81 avg. 53.7 S/R. 2.54 Eco. 4.1 WPM for Imran

Lillee has a better S/R and WPM ratio but Imran has a better average and economy rate. There is very little to split these two going by their career figures, however when we consider that for the last 3-4 years of his career Imran was barely bowling any overs and concentrating on his batting and the captaincy. It is then even MORE impressive that Imran has ended up with almost identical career figures to Lillee who was in the team only as a bowler.

To get a fair and objective analysis of them both as bowlers we should try and discount the matches where Imran was in the team for his batting and captaincy alone. I will look at their career records for matches in which they have taken a minimum of 5, 8 and 10 wkts to see how they compare in matches where they were both on fire.

Minimum of 5 wickets per match

266 wkts. 17.12 avg. 40.5 S/R. 2.53 Eco. 7.2 WPM for Imran
275 wkts. 18.94 avg. 40.9 S/R. 2.77 Eco. 7.2 WPM for Lillee

In matches where both have taken a minimum of 5 WPM, Imran has a better S/R, average AND Economy. They are level on WPM. So basically there is very little to split these two when they were on fire but if we are being forced to split them then Imran comes out on top. Even mediocre bowlers can take 5 wpm so what are these two like when you lift the benchmark to 8 wpm?

Minimum of 8 wickets per match

153 wkts. 12.83 avg. 30.2 S/R. 2.54 Eco. 9.6 WPM for Imran
139 wkts. 14.74 avg. 32.3 S/R. 2.73 Eco. 9.3 WPM for Lillee

When we look at the performances that seperate the good bowlers from the great Imran beats Lillee in every criteria. Lillee cant beat Imran on
average, WPM, economy OR strike rate. Still the true test of the greatest
bowlers would be in matches where they have taken 10 wickets against the opposition.

Minimum of 10 wickets per match

69 wkts. 10.69 avg. 24.1 S/R. 2.66 Eco. 11.5 WPM for Imran
74 wkts. 13.89 avg. 32.1 S/R. 2.59 Eco. 10.6 WPM for Lillee

When we dissect the career averages looking for true destruction in the form of matches where each bowler took a minimum of 10 wickets, Imran leaves Lillee in the dust! Lillee has a slightly better economy but Imran has a better average by 3.2 runs, a WPM ratio which is better by almost a run and strike rate which is superior to Lillee’s by 8 balls.

That’s almost an over and a half by which Imran’s strike rate is better than Lillee in this regard. Lillee relies on longer spells to take the same amount of wickets as Imran. It would take Lillee over 53 overs to take 10 wickets whereas Imran would take 10 wickets in just over 40 overs.

As Majid (a PakPassioner) likes to say give Shabbir enough overs and he’ll take a ten wicket haul too. Lillee wasn’t destructive in the sense of a Waqar, a Marshall or an Imran but he was effective like a Pollock or McGrath. If Imran is a stallion then in comparison Lillee is a work-horse. Lillee was a great bowler but an all-time great bowler?

No!

As i showed in my analysis of bowlers at their peak he didnt make the top category, he’s good but nothing special.

Best Performances

Lets give Lillee another chance, we’ll look at each players best performance against the other 5 teams they played with during their era. What were these two bowlers like with their tail up?

West Indies

11 wkts. 11.00 avg. 20.3 S/R. 3.24 Eco for Imran
10 wkts. 12.70 avg. 32.2 S/R. 2.36 Eco for Lillee

Imran’s best performance against the best team of their era makes Lillee
look like a second hand great. Lillee was an economical workhorse when
compared to Imran here, he needed around 2 overs MORE than Imran to take each wicket.

England

10 wkts. ~7.70 avg. 22.9 S/R. 2.01 Eco for Imran
11 wkts. 12.54 avg. 36.0 S/R. 2.08 Eco for Lillee

Lillee’s best performance versus his favourite team is almost half as good as Imran’s best performance versus the same team!!!

*New Zealand *

11 wkts. 11.18 avg. 24.1 S/R. 2.77 Eco for Lillee
~6 wkts. 18.16 avg. 63.6 S/R. 1.71 Eco for Imran

Lillee has a far better record vs NZ than Imran does, he makes Imran look poor in every category.

India

11 wkts. ~7.18 avg. 17.6 S/R. 2.44 Eco for Imran
~8 wkts. 21.12 avg. 42.8 S/R. 2.95 Eco for Lillee

Do i need to comment on this?

Pakistan/Australia

10 wkts. 13.50 avg. 29.6 S/R. 2.73 Eco for Lillee
12 wkts. 13.75 avg. 30.5 S/R. 2.69 Eco for Imran

There is hardly anything to pick between the performances here except for the fact that Imran took two more wickets the rest is almost identical.

Combined best perfomances vs these 5 teams

50 wkts. 11.02 avg. 27.9 S/R. 2.36 Eco for Imran
50 wkts. 13.84 avg. 32.5 S/R. 2.55 Eco for Lillee

Despite Imrans abysmal figures against New Zealand he still comes out head and shoulders above Lillee for total destruction. There is no doubt that Imran was a much more destructive and world class bowler than Lillee but how did Lillee get his reputation?

Did he play most of his games versus the best team of the era, the West Indies? Below are the 4 team that each player has played the most…

Imran

26% - India
20% - West Indies
20% - Australia
14% - England

Lillee

41% - England
24% - Pakistan
17% - West Indies
11% - New Zealand

Basically Lillee only really played versus England and Pakistan (Lillee has an abysmal record in the subcontinent). Lillee seems to have ducked the best team of his era and as a result his figures arent worth as much as Imrans who played a better variety of top quality batting line-ups.

How many of us would rate a player who has played 41% of his matches versus ONE team or 65% of his matches versus 2 teams?

If that player was a Pakistani he would be ridiculed and never mentioned alongside the greats!!!

Lucky for Lillee he’s an Aussie then… :wink:

2

whoa man. That seems like a lot of hardwork. Very well done but I doubt any of us Pakistanis need those figures to prove that Imran was the greatest allrounder of all time. Just abt everyone will agree to it. He was and still is our undisputed King of Cricket.:jhanda:

3

What possition you hold in Tehrik-e-Insaaf ? :D j/k

The Great Khan was sure the best allrounder.

4

Even as a fast bowler Imran supercedes Lillie coz in the latter part of his career as truly pointed out by Mercenary Imran concentrated more on Batting and captaincy...which no doubt led to a shift of spectrum from only bowling which Lillie never did!

5

Our Govt should have annunced “SIR” title for Imran…

Gr8 Imran is one of the Most outstanding Cricketer of the history.

Just Imagine… Imran had more than 2 yrs break from Cricket when he was in Full Swing… In those Two Yers if He was not out… His Recoreds would be a big Target of any of the Fast Bowler.

In SHORT…

Imran Khan.. The true Pride of Pakistan… The True Roaring Lion…

:love:

6

Great work. And I think Imran was a better Bowler then Lilly. And then the fact that Lilly has taken most of his wickets on bouncy and fast pitches while Imran have played mostly in Sub continent where pitches are mostly dead and flat, makes Imran a better expert. But having said that I still think Lilly should be always remembered as one of the greatest players in cricket. :slight_smile:
:k:

7

just to clarify a little point for u stats-lovers....

bowler X has a bowling average of 10
bowler Y has a bowling avergae of 15

this DOES NOT mean that Y has bettered X (as per bowling average) by 5 points....

the lower the average, the better the bowler....

perhaps the author of the thread shud keep this in mind and re-write the comments on the stats....

clearly lillee beats imran as fa as bowling averages r concerned, on each and every point....

8

o and also, the lower the strike rate, the better the bowler....

let me just define these terms for u....

Average: average number of runs given per wicket
Strike Rate: average number of balls bowled to get a wicket
Economy: average number of runs given in an over

i hope it makes things more clear.... :)

9

armughal has made some comments...

[QUOTE]
the lower the average, the better the bowler....
[/QUOTE]

wow really? So you're telling me that the lower the average the better the bowler?

[QUOTE]
perhaps the author of the thread shud keep this in mind and re-write the comments on the stats....
[/QUOTE]

you want me to rewrite the stats keeping in mind that the lower the average the better the bowler? But why?

[QUOTE]
clearly lillee beats imran as fa as bowling averages r concerned, on each and every point....
[/QUOTE]

Oh i see. So its because Lillee has a lower bowling average than Imran on each and every point that i made?

Are you saying that Lillee has a lower average than Imran on each and EVERY point? Thats what you got from reading my stats? Well lets have a look shall we...

career averages

22.81 - Imran
23.92 - Lillee

...so Imran has a LOWER average! 1 point to Imran!

Minimum of 5 wickets per match

17.12 - Imran
18.94 - Lillee

...so Imran has a LOWER average! 2 points to Imran!

Minimum of 8 wickets per match

12.83 - Imran
14.74 - Lillee

...so Imran has a LOWER average! 3 points to Imran!

Minimum of 10 wickets per match

10.69 - Imran
13.89 - Lillee

...so Imran has a LOWER average! 4 points to Imran!

Also in the best performances per team Imran wins 3 and Lillee wins 2. So thats 7 for Imran and 2 for Lillee. In the combined best performances Imran wins it again so overall Imran wins 8 points to 2 points against Lillee on who has the better average!

Try reading the whole argument again. You also said...

[QUOTE]
o and also, the lower the strike rate, the better the bowler....
[/QUOTE]

I can only assume that you mean Lillee had the better strike rate on points too, well on Strike rates Imran wins it 7-3 and if u look at the differences in strike rate. When Lillee has a better strike rate than Imran its only by a ball or two but when Imrans is better you can count the difference in numbers of overs !!!

10

Mercenary first of great post and some very nice figures and facts. :k:

2ndly there are few desi nut heads on this forum who thinks Lillee is better than Imran Khan (armughal I am not talking about you). Maybe they are so impressed by the Australian blonds that instead of saying Australian blonds are better than desi chicks :wink: they said Lillee is better than Imran. Now since you have proved with facts and stats they should keep their mouth shut.

Lillee was sahir in his backyard unlike Imran who always performed be it away or home. Imran was too arrogant but that’s not just Imran all the fast bowlers were/are arrogant but than it only suits Imran. :slight_smile: (my opinion)

Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Imran vs Lillee (purely as Fast Bowlers)

I think mercenaray Imran is not Lillee’s equal in skill or performance.His overall match peformances have been better if you count that he morally captured 446 wickets adding Packer and Rest of the World games.Lillee’s oustanding performances against West Indies came against Clive Lloyd’s team unlike Imran’s and in Packer cricket he was head and shoulders above any bowler.He bowled against great batting sides and still captured 5 wickets per test in Packer games.One can always manipualte stats to favour your favourite cricketer .Lillee has been elected in the all-time 11 by a team of experts of the modern and past eras and even Bradman selected him in his all-time 11.
Dennis Lillee is The most complete and classical fast bowler of all time and arguably the best.. He had a perfect bowling action great pace, control, movement off the air and the wicket, great versatility combined with unrelenting agression. He could swing the ball both ways ,had a superb leg-cutter, an effective bouncer and could produce subtle changes of pace. He posessed a classical action combined with hostility and agression.In his early days he was tearway fast but became a better bowler when he reduced his pace and concentrated on controlled swing and cut.

Captured 8 wickets for 29 runs against the Rest of the World team at Perth in 1972.In 1973 sufffered a major back-injury but made an almost miraculous recovery, blasting out Englsih and West Indian teams in 1975 and 1976 with partner Jeff Thomson.His 6-26 at Melbourne in the Centenary test in 1977 against England was a classical spell-amongst the greatest of all time where he rattled England with one of the most hostile exhibitions of pace bowling. He repeated that at Melbourne against England in 1979-80 ona flat track where he bowled seam up.He also punished the WEst Indies with 7-83 at Melbourme in 1981-82 with 10 wickets in the match enabling Australia to win win the test match.****
Lillee also bowled particularly well in England like his 10 wickets at the Oval in 1972 and his 7-89 and 10 wickets overall at the Oval in 1981-82.He had ever-consistent wicket hall sin test series and In World Series Cricket captured 67 wickets in 15 supertsets against great stalwarts like Viv and Bary Richards.After Packer Cricket for 3 succesive Australian seasons was the Champion bolwer-1979-80,1980-81 and 1981-82,his supremacy marginally challenged by Holding and Imran.****

Dennis Lillee at his best had a brilliant strike rate but his economy rate was higher than stalwarts like Marshall,Imran and Hadlee.Lillee has a superior percentage of match-winning wickets from his overall haul than Imran.Lillee’s % is 57 as against Imran’s 42.wickets in which he has won games In one of Ananth Narayan’s stats analysis he is rated the best fast bowler of all just nosing out Hadleeand Imran and about 2 and a half points above McGrath and Marshall.Infact in both lists he is rated above Mcgrath nad Marshall.Cricinfo selected Lillee in the all-time 11 rating him the best pace bowler of all time.From 1977-1982 he bowled like the ultimate champion converting his strike rate to about 47 balls per wicket.** **
Career averages
Span
[RIGHT][RIGHT]Mat
Inns
Balls
Runs
Wkts
BBI
BBM
Ave
Econ
SR
5
10[/RIGHT][/RIGHT]
unfiltered
1971-1984
[RIGHT][RIGHT]70
132
18467
8493
355
7/83
11/123
23.92
2.75
52.0
23
7
Profile[/RIGHT][/RIGHT]
filtered
1977-1982
[RIGHT][RIGHT]30
57
8211
3824
176
7/83
11/123
21.72
2.79
46.6
14
5[/RIGHT][/RIGHT]

For almost 18 months between February 1973 and November 1974, Lillee did not play competitive cricket because of injuries, but came back strongly to become the world’s best bowler over the next **three years](http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/%20/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=wickets;spanmax2=01+Apr+1977;spanmin2=01+Nov+1974;spanval2=span;template=results;type=bowling). In 1977, he played in World Series Cricket and demonstrated once again that he was at the peak of his career. In a series that featured the world’s top fast bowlers, Lillee took the most wickets, though he also played the most matches, picking up 67 wickets in 14 games across the two seasons******
Performance of top bowlers in World Series Cricket
[RIGHT][RIGHT]Bowler
Matches played
Wickets taken
Average
Garth Le Roux
3
17
15.88
Mike Procter
4
14
16.07
Imran Khan
5
25
20.84
Michael Holding
9
35
23.31
Andy Roberts
13
50
24.14
Joel Garner
7
35
24.77
Max Walker
7
28
25.42
Dennis Lillee
14
67
26.86
Jeff Thomson
5
16
29.75[/RIGHT][/RIGHT]

** **** Ananth Narayan, of cricinfo compiled 2 tables of statistical analysis of great bowlers of all categories.In both analyses he made separate tables for bowlers in three different periods.I am only reproducing his figures for the modern era. Ananth has taken into account match performances and career ratings .The ratings of Analysis no1 are 1.Dennis Lillee-48.05 2.Richard Hadlee-47.97 3.Imran Khan-47.9 4.Dale Steyn-45.55 5.Macom Marshall-45.44 6.Glen McGrath-44.86 7..Alan Donald-44.18 8..Curtly Ambrose -44.13 9.Waqar younus -43.55 10.Michael Holding 43.4 **** **

Lillee has superior match performances than Imran.

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Re: Imran vs Lillee (purely as Fast Bowlers)

Great work Mercenary.

Lillee was perhaps a better bowler than Imran but the latter was a superior cricketer because of his additional skills (batting and captaincy). Imran played 50% of his cricket on the slow and unhelpful subcontinental dust bowls compared to Lillee who played nearly all of his cricket on bounce, pace, seam and swing friendly English and Australian pitches. Also post 1988, Imran was past his prime as a bowler. He was already 36 and playing in the team mainly as a batsman cum captain. He bowled very little in his last 15 odd tests between 1989-91 and if anything it adversely affected his overall figures. So to still be averaging 22.81 with the ball and despite missing his peak years between 1983 and 1986 because of a stress fracture of ankle just shows how good a bowler Imran was. He had just taken 40 wickets in 6 tests @ a mind boggling bowling average of 13.29 against a formidable indian batting line-up boasting the likes of Sunil Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Vengsarkar and Mohinder Amarnath. Lillee by contrast averages 90 odd with the ball in 5 tests in the sub-continent!!

Among his contemporaries, Imran Khan has THE best bowling record against the best team (West Indies) of his time averaging 21 with the ball (80 wickets in 18 tests against them)

Malcolm Marshall is the greatest fast bowler in my book. Unlike Lillee, Marshall did well in the sub-continent. Look at his bowling average and SR. He was frighteningly quick and was very hard to play because of the express pace and ackward bounce that he generated with his action

13

Re: Imran vs Lillee (purely as Fast Bowlers)

Another point worth mentioning is that wickets per match (WPM) just like runs per test is a meaningless stat.

Batting and bowling averages + SR (for bowlers) are more relevant stats

Back in the 70s and 80s because of the dull, flat tracks, most sub-continental tests did not have a completed second innings incl. that 6-test series v India in 1982-3. So bowlers and batters had less opportunities to take wickets and score runs in the second innings. Most tests ended in dull boring draws. It is only since the introduction of the mandatory 90 overs per day rule in the 90s that we are seeing more results in tests played in the subcontinent

Another factor that influences WPM is the quality of your bowling unit. Marshall's WPM ratio is obviously lower than the likes of Lillee and Hadlee because wickets were shared among the great Windies quartet. Jeff Thompson had pace but he was also very wayward. Marshall and Waqar, on the other hand, were consistent performers

14

Re: Imran vs Lillee (purely as Fast Bowlers)

Great thread. Did not realize Imran Khan was this good. As some have pointed out, his bowling more in the sub-continent stacked the deck against him. Lillee's years with Packer series took some valuable years from him.

The windies were awesome - Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Malcolm Marshall - little to choose among them. Next level Joel Garner and Colin Croft.