AMBREEN KHAN : What are your ideas on what to do on Indo-Pak ties ?
I was the generation which grew up the most antagonistic against India — I grew up in Lahore— the cross-border killings — you heard stories, and built up a hatred against India. And then of course, my generation was also the first that actually went and started interacting with Indians. My closest friend at university was an Indian, and he’s still my close friend — Vikram Mehta. The reason why we had so much in common was because we had a common history, common culture. We had our differences too, but we had more in common between us than what we had with the Europeans or the westerners, hence the close friendship. And subsequently, each time I used to come to India the perception would keep changing. And that’s the same when people come to Pakistan. So actually, communication’s done a lot, and a lot of us have come to the conclusion that the only way to live is as civilised neighbours. The way we have been living is a disaster for both countries and has been hindering our progress. I was reading an account of Jinnah — two months before the night of Partition, he was planning to buy land in Shimla, so he would rather have spent his holidays in India rather than go back to Pakistan.
There must be a move forward on Kashmir, because otherwise, you will always have this situation, where you draw closer, and suddenly you’re back where you were…it’s one step forward and two back each time some instance takes place. I think you need to have a simultaneous movement towards other relationships as well as Kashmir, because as long as Kashmir is there, as much as I would hope that things would improve…recent history has shown that it just doesn’t work.
Look at each time you have the confidence-building measures and suddenly…India’s involved in Baluchistan, India’s in Kashmir .
What’s your take on Bollywood in Pakistan? Indian artists are not getting the same opportunities that Pakistan are getting here.
It’s the same analogy as Pakistani cricketers going to play county cricket, because county cricket is in a much better state than Pakistan cricket. Your film industry is of a higher standard. But I just feel they copy the American Hollywood too much. We used to watch Hindi films too in our younger days, until the 70s. I just feel there’s too much American influence in them. And the worst part…maybe its the conservative in me, I actually feel this trend in Hollywood, is they’re making a woman into a beautiful animal. I just think it’s terrible because it’s taking away from the personality of a human being. The most attractive part of a woman is her personality, not her flesh or where she carries it. And the way it’s going about, it’s actually demeaning women. It’s undignified, it’s un-Indian, and there’s too much emphasis on the physical.
RITU SARIN: Are you holding Dawood Ibrahim in Pakistan ? And you go to his daughter’s wedding?
Well, I’m not the ISI, so how would I know whether Dawood Ibrahim is in Pakistan. And no. I didn’t go to the wedding in Dubai, but I went to Walima (reception), because Javed (Miandad) had invited me.
RUCHIKA SHARMA: Do you think Pakistan and India can make peace work between the two countries?
When you have a democratic government on both sides, there’s a much easier sort of contact between two democracies. At the moment our problem is that whatever we do, there is one man calling the shots.
So first you have to fix your own system. And until that happens…we always heard this nonsense that a military dictator, with the army behind him is much more equipped to strike some sort of a peace deal. I don’t agree with that. Supposing he had struck a deal and then that democratic government had come in and said ‘no, we don’t accept it’. It’s much better that you have a democratic government talking to another democracy. Then it’s a people-to-people process. I think that as long as we keep talking to each other, as long as we keep this dialogue going…you want to keep talking.
VRINDA GOPINATH: Do you feel envious of India’s record with democracy ?
I think your real democracy has come about since the last 16 years. When I first came in the 70s your democracy was not really functional. Your regional parties came into being, the coalition, the BJP came in, and suddenly we saw this huge country holding elections and nobody talking about rigging.
The key to democracry was your election commission; the judiciary seems more assertive and more independent than ours. In 16 years you’ve seen an evolution of the Indian democratic process and remember this is a long process of evolution. Because to reach the stage that Switzerland and Sweden have reached, it’s still a long way to go. The American democracy is very discordant, because the more money you have in fighting elections, the less democratic you are. When money speaks, it’s less of a democracy, because lobbies come in.