I was just wondering ..is there any ayah that clearly mentions the shia concept of imamat…
kindly just post the realtive ayahs only..with no interpretations or accomapying hadiths…
its amusing that u didnt ask for any hadiths. Theres an abundance of hadiths from SUNNI texts, the ones they regard as "sahih", to support the concept of Imamah. Or have u now become a hadith rejector??? :)
anyqay, here are the verses. Try to find out the meaning, context of revelation and lave of revelation of these before replying.
verily your guardian is god, then his prophet and all those who believe; they are god's contingents---they are those who will remain triumphant (against infidels and non-believers)".(quran, surat al-ma'idah, verse no. 56)
obey (your) god and his prophet, and the one among you whom god has entrusted upon to enforce his law".(quran, surat al-nisa, verse no. 59)
"Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul- Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification". (Qur'an, the last sentence of Verse 33:33)
None touches (the depth of meaning of Qur'an) save the purified ones. (56:79)
Ask the people of Reminder (the possessors of the Message, i.e., Qur'an) if you do not know." (Qur'an 21:7)
He is Who has revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations, which are the Essence of the Book, and others (verses which are) ambiguous. But those who have sickness in their hearts follow the part of which that is ambiguous, seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge who say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. (Qur'an 3:7)
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and
if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and
Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Quran 5:67).
[QUOTE]
17:70 We have honoured the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation.
17:71 One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
17:72 But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most astray from the Path.
[/QUOTE]
^^ The genius of Arabic language is that one word has many meanings but when used in a context it carries the specific meaning attended. The word Imam for example has many meanings. It can mean a leader, leader of prayers, ahead (direction wise) opposite to behind and *a book (a recording book). *
Below i am quoting a few of the translation to the above ayah 17:71 by well known translators of the Holy Quran:
[Shakir 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam ; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.
[Yusufali 17:71] ** One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) ** Imams : those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
** [Pickthal 17:71] ** On the day when We shall summon all men with their ** record** , whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.
*[Muhammad Asad 17:71] * [but] one Day We shall summon all human beings [and judge them] according to the *conscious disposition which governed their deeds [in life]:" * whereupon they whose record shall be placed in their right hand'-it is they who will read their record [with happiness]. Yet none shall be wronged by as much as a hair's breadth:'
*(Tafsir Ibn Kathir 17:71. * (And remember) the Day when We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) *Imam (i.e. the Book of deeds). * So whosoever is given his record in his right hand, such will read their records, and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.)
If we see the above translations we will notice that Pickhal, Muhammad Asad and translation of the Tafsir of Ibn Khatir have used the word
RECORD or BOOK OF DEEDS ** when translating the word **Imam.
Shakir and Yusufali have not translated the word Imam and have left in its original Arabic.
So the above Ayahs are not proof for Imamate in Quran as our brothers Shias would like us to believe.
Ibn Sadique,
[QUOTE]
So the above Ayahs are not proof for Imamate in Quran as our brothers Shias would like us to believe.
[/QUOTE]
I dont see how you can make the jump from
- A is one possible alternate interpretation
to
- A is the interpretation
You suggest that Imam might not be in the common, literal sense here, but might mean book. Regardless of the soundness of that argument you venture into logically infirm territory when you offer a possible alternative and presume its the correct one.
The originator of the thread asked for ayaat that support Shia belief in their Imams. From the shia perspective, these have been provided.
As an aside: you say it is the genius of the arabic language that it can be interpreted in multiple ways depending on the context in which they're interpreted. You see here, there is not merely a difference in context. There is a difference in meaning. For instance
between
[Yusufali 17:71] One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams : those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
and
[Muhammad Asad 17:71] [but] one Day We shall summon all human beings [and judge them] according to the conscious disposition which governed their deeds [in life]:" whereupon they whose record shall be placed in their right hand'-it is they who will read their record [with happiness]. Yet none shall be wronged by as much as a hair's breadth:'
there is a clear difference in meaning. One might be interpreted as believers rising with respective imams, and those having records in their right hands would be succesful. The other in the way you say it is.
Does it not seem odd to you that Allah would leave behind this book that can be misinterpreted in infinitely different ways, without the interpreter having intention of doing so?
Commentators have variously interpreted the word imam as under:
(i) Scripture.
(ii) Prophet.
(iii) Leaders in every age.
(iv) Record of deeds.
(v) Mother.
The first three are better than the last two.
The scripture and the prophet on whom it was revealed are not separable. To follow a scripture means to follow the prophet who brought it to the people. Moreover both of them together take their true followers to salvation. Nowhere in the Quran or in the traditions it is stated that they may also lead their followers to hell, but it is said that there are two types of Imams-"We appointed Imams, from among them, to guide (mankind) by our command (Sajdah: 24); and "We made them Imams who invite to the fire (Qasas: 41). The Imams mentioned in Sajdah: 24, like the prophets, are not separable from the scripture, as declared by the Holy Prophet in hadith al thaqalayn (see page 6). They are his Ahl ul Bayt.
The Holy Prophet said:
"Whosoever dies without recognising the Imam of his age dies the death of a pagan."
After making it clear that there will be an Imam from his progeny in every age, he gave the number of Imams as twelve, neither more nor less. In fact it was a covenant Allah made with Ibrahim that among his descendants there would be twelve princes (Imams) in the progeny of Ismail.
This verse says that all human beings in groups shall be called with their respective Imams. The identity of the true Imams will be their inseparability with the scripture and the Holy Prophet- they will lead to eternal salvation. Those who opposed these Imams in their lifetime and installed themselves as the leaders or rulers without any divine authority shall be the leaders mentioned in Qasas: 41 who will lead their followers to hell because they opposed the book, the Holy Prophet and Allah.
On the day of resurrection the people will be divided in the following groups:
(i) Those who are most excellent and nearest to Allah.
(ii) Ashab ul maymanah-the followers of the book of Allah, the Holy Prophet and the Imams of his Ahl ul Bayt, the most excellent and nearest to Allah.
(iii) Ashab ul mash-amah-the opponents of the first and the second groups.
i knew of the three categories…
but never knew they meant this??? 
why did Allah not pass on the hidden words to me 
btw do all people before the birth of Ali (ra) go under ashab al-mashama because they only believed in a prophet and not the whole family of the prophet (till the qayamat)??? 
Brothers....
LIke i said before......imamat is one of the pillars of shia belif....like all others pillar it has to be mentioned in quran expilicitly without doubt..not a single ayah posted here qualify this criteria....
try some more expilicit ayah ..if any.. to support the immat conncept....
wasalam
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
Brothers....
LIke i said before......imamat is one of the pillars of shia belif....like all others pillar it has to be mentioned in quran expilicitly without doubt..not a single ayah posted here qualify this criteria....
try some more expilicit ayah ..if any.. to support the immat conncept....
wasalam
[/QUOTE]
Bao,
Like I said, its your interpretation.
There can be no more direct references than the ones I've posted, and others I havent (but I know the "alternates" about)..
For example, finality of the Prophet is something both of our beliefs share. According to Ahmedis, there is not a single ayat in the Quran that states that explicitly without doubt (otherwise they wouldnt believe in the Quran).
In my opinion, doubt does not lie in the Quran, it lies elsewhere.
There are countless Ayats about Prophet Muhammad(SAW)
who is also the Prophet of Hazrat Ali(RA) and Imams(RA).
How come people can base entire sect on just one Ayat.
[QUOTE]
There are countless Ayats about Prophet Muhammad(SAW)
who is also the Prophet of Hazrat Ali(RA) and Imams(RA).
How come people can base entire sect on just one Ayat.
[/QUOTE]
Ur not very bright are u? Together there were about 5 diffeent ayahs posted here. Each having to do with Imamat. One with the clear mention of Imam, which is conveniently interpreted as something other then "Imam".
And what of the numerous hadiths in your own books!????
Why turn the blind eye to you prophet (pbuh&hf) telling you about the 12 imam that will follow him? Why turn a blind eye to your prohpet (pbuh&hf) telling u that Ali(as) is you maula. but oh yea, maula isnt maula but friend, just like Imam isnt imam but your mother.
You asked for specific mention of Imam and that was provided, but u said Imam also means other things, something u didnt think about when making the request. You were provided other ayahs also. And after all that u have the audacity to pass judgeent on an entire sect.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
Ibn Sadique,
I dont see how you can make the jump from
- A is one possible alternate interpretation
to
- A is the interpretation
You suggest that Imam might not be in the common, literal sense here, but might mean book. Regardless of the soundness of that argument you venture into logically infirm territory when you offer a possible alternative and presume its the correct one.
The originator of the thread asked for ayaat that support Shia belief in their Imams. From the shia perspective, these have been provided.
As an aside: you say it is the genius of the arabic language that it can be interpreted in multiple ways depending on the context in which they're interpreted. You see here, there is not merely a difference in context. There is a difference in meaning. For instance
between
[Yusufali 17:71] One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams : those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
and
[Muhammad Asad 17:71] [but] one Day We shall summon all human beings [and judge them] according to the conscious disposition which governed their deeds [in life]:" whereupon they whose record shall be placed in their right hand'-it is they who will read their record [with happiness]. Yet none shall be wronged by as much as a hair's breadth:'
there is a clear difference in meaning. One might be interpreted as believers rising with respective imams, and those having records in their right hands would be succesful. The other in the way you say it is.
Does it not seem odd to you that Allah would leave behind this book that can be misinterpreted in infinitely different ways, without the interpreter having intention of doing so?
[/QUOTE]
*Brother Ravage * – I wasn’t giving another possible alternative interpretation. I had qualified myself by saying:
[QUOTE]
If we see the above translations we will notice that Pickthal, Muhammad Asad and translation of the Tafsir of Ibn Khatir have used the word
[/QUOTE]
Shakir and Yusufali have not translated the word Imam and have left in its original Arabic whereas those who have translated to word ‘Imam’ into English have opted for the ‘Books of Deeds’.
If we start from ayah 17:70 we see that Allah (swt) is reminding the sons of Adam (as) the honour He has given them and how he has conferred them with special favours.
Logically the next ayah (17:71) follows with reminder to Mankind (Sons of Adam (as)) that they will be gathered one day to account themselves with the deeds they have done (on Earth). Those who have led a righteous life will be given their record their right hand, meaning that Allah (swt) will be pleased with them.
- [Yusufali 17:70] We have honoured the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation.
[Pickthal 17:70] Verily we have honoured the Children of Adam. We carry them on the land and the sea, and have made provision of good things for them, and have preferred them above many of those whom We created with a marked preferment.
[Yusufali 17:71] One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
[Pickthal 17:71] On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.
[Yusufali 17:72] But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most astray from the Path.
[Pickthal 17:72] Whoso is blind here will be blind in the Hereafter, and yet further from the road.*
These ayahs in no way give any proof for the Shia Concept of Imamate.
[QUOTE]
For example, finality of the Prophet is something both of our beliefs share. According to Ahmedis, there is not a single ayat in the Quran that states that explicitly without doubt (otherwise they wouldnt believe in the Quran).
In my opinion, doubt does not lie in the Quran, it lies elsewhere.
[/QUOTE]
Yes we do agree that there a definite proof of Finality of Prophethood in Quran; Ahmedis choose to opt to interpret to suit their sectarian needs.
Picard
[QUOTE]
Why turn the blind eye to you prophet (pbuh&hf) telling you about the 12 imam that will follow him?
[/QUOTE]
There is a hadith where Prophet Muhammad (saw) has mentioned that there will be 12 Khalifahs who will be from Quraish.
*Narrated Jabir ibn Samurah: The Prophet (pbuh) said: The religion will continue to be established till there are twelve caliphs (Khalifas) over you, and the whole community will agree on each of them. I then heard from the Prophet (pbuh) some remarks which I could not understand. I asked my father: What is he saying: He said: all of them will belong to Quraysh. *
You have to agree that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was very precise in his sermons. You can see that the word is khalifa and does not mention that they will be from his family or that they will be infallible.
I insist that it is merely a possible alternative. Had it even been consistent with your explanation, it wouldnt be the only alternative if there are other consistent ones. Which was why I was asking why you assumed it was without refuting other ones. I'll go ahead and bite the bullet: logically, even this one doesnt make sense.
[QUOTE]
If we start from ayah 17:70 we see that Allah (swt) is reminding the sons of Adam (as) the honour He has given them and how he has conferred them with special favours.
Logically the next ayah (17:71) follows with reminder to Mankind (Sons of Adam (as)) that they will be gathered one day to account themselves with the deeds they have done (on Earth).
[/QUOTE]
how is the second a logical outcome of the first? Had you not been given the second, would it have been necessarily this one? If so, there would be not point in revealing this one. I would also be interested in learning what logical process you went through in making this deduction. If not, then admit that your logic, is merely paraphrasing the two ayats in your interpretation and adding "logically" to it.
Heres one alternate that I offer, logically. It might not be the logic that is true logical deduction, but nevertheless, because of the context of my beliefs and background, I find mine more "logical".
[17:70]: sets the stage, with Allah reminding mankind of his immense favours, from means of substinence, to means of travel, to the preferred status of mankind. (He has also bestowed upon us means of guidance, our Imams, and one day..)
[17:71] He will raise us with our Imams. Those who recieve their records in their right hands will be succesfull..(but.. and notice the close association between the two sentences..)
[17:72] those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the next.
Furtheremore, if Imam was meant to be in context of a book of records, why the use of two words in the same sentence? If the two are indistinguishable, why the change in words instead of the use of a preposition?
[QUOTE]
Brother Ravage – I wasn’t giving another possible alternative interpretation. I had qualified myself by saying:
quote:
If we see the above translations we will notice that Pickthal, Muhammad Asad and translation of the Tafsir of Ibn Khatir have used the word
Shakir and Yusufali have not translated the word Imam and have left in its original Arabic whereas those who have translated to word ‘Imam’ into English have opted for the ‘Books of Deeds’.
If we start from ayah 17:70 we see that Allah (swt) is reminding the sons of Adam (as) the honour He has given them and how he has conferred them with special favours.
Logically the next ayah (17:71) follows with reminder to Mankind (Sons of Adam (as)) that they will be gathered one day to account themselves with the deeds they have done (on Earth). Those who have led a righteous life will be given their record their right hand, meaning that Allah (swt) will be pleased with them.
[Yusufali 17:70] We have honoured the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation.
[Pickthal 17:70] Verily we have honoured the Children of Adam. We carry them on the land and the sea, and have made provision of good things for them, and have preferred them above many of those whom We created with a marked preferment.
[Yusufali 17:71] One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
[Pickthal 17:71] On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.
[Yusufali 17:72] But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most astray from the Path.
[Pickthal 17:72] Whoso is blind here will be blind in the Hereafter, and yet further from the road.
These ayahs in no way give any proof for the Shia Concept of Imamate.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
You have to agree that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was very precise in his sermons. You can see that the word is khalifa and does not mention that they will be from his family or that they will be infallible.
[/QUOTE]
"The religion will continue to be established till the hour comes as there are twelve Caliphs over them, everyone of them coming from the Quraish".
Mishkat al Masabih: (Vol 4 p 576), Hadith 5
"The Islamic religion will continue, until the hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by 12 Caliphs, all of them being from Quraish"
Sahih Muslim, hadith number 4483, English translation by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui
In Sunan of al-Tirmidhi:
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "There will be after me twelve Amir (Prince/Ruler), all of them from Quraysh."
Sunan al-Tirmidhi (Arabic)
Chapter of Fitan,
2:45 (India) and 4:501 Tradition # 2225 (Egypt)
In Sahih of al-Bukhari:
Narrated Jabir ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve commanders (Amir)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraysh."
Sahih al-Bukhari (English)
Hadith: 9.329, Kitabul Ahkam.
I have heard your prayer for Ishmael. I have blessed him and will make him fruitful. I will multiply his descendants; he shall be the father of twelve princes; and I will raise a great nation from him."
Genesis: 17,19-20, New English Bible
SO the prophet (pbuh&hf) does specify that they will be from the quraish. The debate surrounding their infallibility is another one. Now whats explanation for this in sunni beliefs? how many of these have come, how many are left?
thanks for the ayats picard..our sunni brothers should also read sahi muslim
Book 031, Number 5914:
Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) left 'Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: Allah's Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women 4nd children? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me.
alsoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
(after his last hajj)The Holy Prophet (saw) gave a speech by a pond known as Ghadir Khum & said,"I am leaving for you 2 precious things.1st of them is the book of Allah in which there is light & guidance...The other is my AHLUL-BAYT.I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. Who are the members of his household? Zaid said:"Ali and the offspring of Ali."
Sahih Muslim,Chapter 4:The merits of Ali B. Abi Talib (A.S.) Book 31, Number 5920
put the ayat and hadith together and we know the importance and the need of Imams
Thank you
madhnee meri jaan..i know u wont like the first hadith i posted..but thats the truth :)
[QUOTE]
Book 031, Number 5914:
Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) left 'Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: Allah's Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women 4nd children? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me.
alsoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
(after his last hajj)The Holy Prophet (saw) gave a speech by a pond known as Ghadir Khum & said,"I am leaving for you 2 precious things.1st of them is the book of Allah in which there is light & guidance...The other is my AHLUL-BAYT.I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. Who are the members of his household? Zaid said:"Ali and the offspring of Ali."
Sahih Muslim,Chapter 4:The merits of Ali B. Abi Talib (A.S.) Book 31, Number 5920
[/QUOTE]
forgot to mention those two :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
I insist that it is merely a possible alternative. Had it even been consistent with your explanation, it wouldnt be the only alternative if there are other consistent ones. Which was why I was asking why you assumed it was without refuting other ones. I'll go ahead and bite the bullet: logically, even this one doesnt make sense.
how is the second a logical outcome of the first? Had you not been given the second, would it have been necessarily this one? If so, there would be not point in revealing this one. I would also be interested in learning what logical process you went through in making this deduction. If not, then admit that your logic, is merely paraphrasing the two ayats in your interpretation and adding "logically" to it.
Heres one alternate that I offer, logically. It might not be the logic that is true logical deduction, but nevertheless, because of the context of my beliefs and background, I find mine more "logical".
[17:70]: sets the stage, with Allah reminding mankind of his immense favours, from means of substinence, to means of travel, to the preferred status of mankind. (He has also bestowed upon us means of guidance, our Imams, and one day..)
[17:71] He will raise us with our Imams. Those who recieve their records in their right hands will be succesfull..(but.. and notice the close association between the two sentences..)
[17:72] those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the next.
Furtheremore, if Imam was meant to be in context of a book of records, why the use of two words in the same sentence? If the two are indistinguishable, why the change in words instead of the use of a preposition?
[/QUOTE]
*Brother Ravage * – Sorry I should have made myself clear – the logic I was talking about was that of the translators.
The translators had choice of words which denoted different meanings of the Arabic word Imam.
I had the given the meanings of the Imam as such 1) leader, 2)leader of prayers, 3)ahead (direction wise) opposite to behind and 4) a book (a recording book). Gandalf had added the following (i) Scripture. (ii) Prophet. (iii) Leaders in every age. (iv) Record of deeds. (v) Mother.
Shakir and Yusufali did not choose to translate the word Imam into English and left it to that.
Pickthal, Muhammad Asad, Ibn Kathir when translating the word Imam in the context of Ayahs opted for Books of Deeds.
From the meanings that Gandalf and I had given above “leader of prayers”, “ahead (direction wise) opposite to behind” and “mother” don’t qualify in this instance.
If we substitute other options Leader, Prophet and Scripture Record of Deeds it does make sense that every nation (Ummah) will stand behind their respective Prophet/Leader or Scripture/Book of Deeds.
We Muslims (Shia and Sunni) are Ummah of Muhammad (saw) so we all will be in his group.
So my contention is that these Ayahs that you had quoted do not convey the Concept of Imamate as the Shia believe.
But if that is good enough for you, who am I to mind?
Now Shias believe that the World cannot stay without an Imam, you agree?
*Who was the Imam just before Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the one before that one? *