Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
psyah, thank you for sharing those. I will def watch them. Please do share what is it that you found inaccurate and fallacious about imran hossein's lecture.
Even in his video he mentions it clearly that those are his educated opinions.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
for another video by Ahmad Thomson … Author of the book that I read abut Dajjal, many years ago.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
psyah, thank you for sharing those. I will def watch them. Please do share what is it that you found inaccurate and fallacious about imran hossein's lecture. Even in his video he mentions it clearly that those are his educated opinions.
Peace Sheeda Pistol
Did you know in light of his theories he has chosen to side with Syria, because he believes that we must side with the Russians? He believes that the Zionist Jews are Yajuj Wa Majuj ... He holds a very black and white view of the current situation and how it applies to Hadith. In this respect he has already condemned many people and is already drawing the lines. I believe he has made some unnecessary connections and he has used too much interpretation in some places where the theory does not fit.
Although I admit the Muslim leaders are weak and love to be decorated with Western wealth and protection ... I don't see them as being necessarily Zionists ... There are a number of positions that he varies from the other videos ... If you listen out for them carefully you will see it for yourself.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Neither you nor Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani has any authority whatsoever to categorise hadith as weak or Sahih.
Eminent Scholars of past have done a fantastic job for us.
Founding your aqaid or belief system by relying on one weak hadith shows flimsiness of the foundation of your faith.
Your faith relies on one weak hadith against hundreds of authentic hadith – that is clearly shows it to be fake and deviant religion.
Re-Read my Quotation again:
And read the material in the link I had provided:
*This hadeeth was narrated by Ibn Maajah in his Sunan (4039).
Almost all the muhadditheen (hadeeth scholars) are agreed that this hadeeth is da’eef (weak)”
It was classed as da’eef by al-Bayhaqi, al-Haakim, Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah in Manhaaj al-Sunnah (8/256), and Ibn al-Qayyim in al-Manaar al-Muneef (p. 148).
Al-Dhahabi said in Meezaan al-I’tidal (3/535): it is a munkar report.
Al-Qaari said in Mirqaat al-Mafaateeh (10/183): it is da’eef according to the consensus of the muhadditheen.
It was mentioned by al-Shawkaani in al-Qawaa’id al-Majmoo’ah, 127. He said: al-San’aani said: (it is) mawdoo’ (fabricated).
Al-Albaani said in Silsilat al-Ahaadeeth al-Da’eefah (77): It is munkar.
Even if this hadeeth were saheeh – but it is not saheeh – the meaning would be that there is no one who perfectly guided (mahdi) or protected from sin and error except ‘Eesa ibn Maryam. This was stated by al-Qurtubi, Ibn al-Qayyim and Ibn Katheer.*
Quotation
This does not contradict the fact that the Mahdi will emerge at the end of time and that he will join forces with ‘Eesa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him), and ‘Eesa will pray behind him in congregation.
We have already stated in the answer to question no. 1252 the evidence showing that the Mahdi will emerge at the end of time with the attributes that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) described. These saheeh ahaadeeth cannot be contradicted by a da’eef hadeeth like this one.
Islam Question and Answer - The hadeeth ?There is no Mahdi except ?Eesa? is not saheeh
You will note that this hadith is categorized as weak. So please don’t build foundation of your religion on weak ahadith.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
* then there's a hadith which states , how will your condition be when Isa son of mary (as) will descent among you and your imam will be from among you
Just a lil bit of knowledge of Islam and common sense can solve this.
Let me tackle it in two ways. Hz Muhammad PBUH is talking to sahabah (ra) >> How will YOUR condition be , descent among YOU , Imam from among YOU .. whose that you he's talking to ?? THat's right sahabah. Isnt it unfortunate, that you take the YOU as the people of latter time ( and not the sahabah to whom Muhammad PBUH is talking ) and take the same Ibn e maryam which was sent some 560 years before Hz Muhammad PBUH ? Either the people of latter time are metaphorically compared with Sahabah , and same goes with Isa ibn e maryam, if not.. then both has to be taken literally. Same sahabah Muhammad PBUH was talking to and same Ibn e maryam.
Ok, now that was one side to it. Another of it is that what was the need of Muhammad PBUH to even say that your imam will be from among you???? Ofc they are always from among us. Do we call on Chrisitian priest to lead us?? It only leaves one possibility and that is..that Isa ibn e maryam will descend and he will be our imam and will be from among us!
Only if you had Knowledge of Islam – Islam that is preached by Prophet Muhammad (saw) and had used common sense, you would have arrived at correct conclusion but alas that is not the case.
You are misconstruing and twisting the meaning to prove your point. How wrong you are! Even you have not paid attention to the grammar of the said words!
When Prophet Muhammad (saw) stated the following:
“How will your condition be when Isa son of Mary (as) will descent among you and your Imam will be from among you”
Obviously at that time the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) was talking to the Companions (May Allah be pleased with them all) but he was addressing the statement to those among whom Isa son of Mary (as) WILL descend.
Let me put emphasis on the word WILL – It has been used thrice in the same sentence and talks about future event.
You can clearly see that the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) is addressing the members of Ummah among whom Isa son of Mary (as) will descent.
Incidentally, this hadith proves that Isa son of Mary (as) has not died but will descend in later times.
Second part of the hadith states:
“and your Imam will be from among you”
We all know that at the time of descent of Hz. Isa son of Mary (as) Imam Mahdi (as) will be the Imam of the People! So this part of hadith refers to Imam Mahdi (as)!
Simple, isn’t it.
* You're too fond of doing same thing over and over. This is your problem and I dont even like debating with you for that reason. What is so difficult in understanding what you quoted ??
Don’t be that sensitive my friend, does me quoting statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad embarrass you? and I never forced you to debate with me. My fondness to repeating over and over again is so that you may someday see the light and see the folly of following a man who dares to throw Blessed Ahadith because they DON'T tally up with his wahi? I too rejected his supposedly ‘wahi ‘ and whatever he stands for to waste paper bin!
* Yes, according to your own belief, Imam Mahdi will be a just haakim. To you, haakim has to be someone who is leading the nation, but no thats not the case. He will be a just ruler, because he has the authority of deciding which hadith is right and which is not. Afterall, he has to bring all muslim ummah under one flag right ? He has the authority from Allah and by Allah's will he will tell which ahadith from shia books of ahadith, sunni books of ahadith etc are authentic and which are not. What seems difficult for you to grasp ? put it on yourself for a minute. Hz Isa (as) came and hes telling you which hadith is authentic and which is not. I will feel pity on you if you say Hz Isa (as) is wrong and nauzubillah your so called fine sense of judgement is right about ahadith. So kindly, lets put an end to this once and for all. Read what i wrote very carefully and use this quote of mine for your future reference.
I fully understand what you are saying.
The premises of your argument and by extension that of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is that hadith material deemed sahih by all the eminent scholars from the earliest days wrong – so their aqaid (Belief System) was wrong – and it is only Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani who has corrected and set Islam on course by Will of Allah Almighty.
Is that correct?
You are wrong to assume so.
Allah Almighty did not leave Muslims without guidance – as the following ahadith clearly state so.
Narrated from Abu Huraira (R), from the Messenger of Allah (saw), who said: “Surely, Allah will send for this Ummah at the advent of every one hundred years a person (or persons) who will renovate its religion for it.” [Sunan Abu Dawood Hakim, Baihaqi]
“Surely, Allah will send for this Ummah at the beginning (ra’s) of every hundred years a person who will revive its religion for it.” (Abu Dawud)
The Holy Prophet said, “The scholars are the inheritors of the prophets”.(Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood, Nasai, Ibn Maja, Ahmad, Ibn Hibban)
Time and again eminent scholars have striven against deviations to keep Knowledge of Islam intact. Due colonization, general stagnation and lack of education and backwardness this knowledge is not with masses as general
.
With advent of Imam Mahdi (as) all the deviant sects will the truth and follow him in Islam in its pristine form.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani utterly failed in this and only succeeded in creating another fissure in the Islamic Ummah.
* Again, you do not have answers to these. If they are two personalities, one must pray funeral of the other! find me any hadith which has anything like that..
I know this that Imam Mahdi will die before Hz. Isa son of Mary (as). If I find the hadith I’ll post it but this is not a promise.
*
Hz Isa(as) already is dead! Quran speaks loudly on this matter.
No! Quran says otherwise – it is only and your jamaat that speaks loudly on this matter.
Brother psyah has done wonderful job about this matter on this board – search it and be informed.
* Why do you even need to accept Isa(as) when you have accepted him once? There is no obligation on you to follow him or accept him. You are waiting for a prophet yourself. Old or new is irrelevant. Your own aqaid are so messed up, and you're here pointing fingers at others.
I follow what Quran and the Blessed Prophet (saw) has informed me about. Rest is deviancy
* Being burried next to prophet Muhammad PBUH means nothing literally. It only implies that his living and his death will be all for the sake of Muhammad PBUH and for the propagation of the true teachings of Islam, His name will be same, his attributes will be same as his, he will follow quran, as if everything he will do will be in complete accordance to Islam. It means nothing else. It's rather funny how you're going to wait till he is actually buried beside holy prophet's grave in order to accept him as the Hz Isa(as). If that doesnt happen, there will be many like you raising same question on that day. Come on, dont make Islam a joke.
Read this again
The Criteria for recognizing Imam Mahdi (as) and Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) is NOT where they will be buried or who is going to lead whose funeral prayers.
Ha! You think that I am to fall for your (Ahmadi/Qadiani) oft used ploy?
Just because there is hadith which states that when Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) will eventually die (this proves that he is still alive) the Muslims at that time will perform his funeral prayers and that he will be buried next the grave of Prophet Muhammed (saw).
Burial next to the Prophet (saw) doesn’t confirm genuineness of Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (as) rather it is information for the Muslims of that time to know where he should be buried upon his death.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
* LOL, when you have less knowledge, thats when you ask stupid question such as why he used to ride in train if its the donkey of dajjal? lol.
Lool I find it funny just imaging mahdi/messiah riding a donkey of dajjal – couldn’t afford one of his own.
* It's the era in which dajjal will appear. And it has. Connect the dots yourself. All the technology that we see today are invented by western powers, who are all christians. People who attack Islam ( refer to the dream of Muhammad PBUH where dajjal was doing tawaaf of kaaba ) ( there's another hadith in which it says dajjal cannot enter makkah ). So, really.. think about it for Allah's sake ! Dream means dajjal is trying to find way to attack Kaaba aka, Islam
Isn’t it ironic that your jamaat and khalifah (self-styled champions of Islam) find refuge with Christians who are bent of attacking Islam?
* Then Muhammad PBUH says, it cannot enter Makkah. Do you see how everything just fits in so perfectly ? You won't see it because its not your fault. Allah has set a seal on your eyes and you will keep blindly following whatever has been fed to you.
That’s what all cultists say when indeed it is they who following the pied piper.
* Don't be amazed when Allah's chosen one has come to us in this era. If you do not want to follow it, kindly do not say harsh words against Him. Allah does not like people who says things against his chosen people. Fear Allah as He should be feared and dont exceed your limits in religion matters.
That is exactly what all the cultists say about their leader – But those who are outside looking into it know how wrong it all is – borrowing your words -* "You won't see it because its not your fault. Allah has set a seal on your eyes and you will keep blindly following whatever has been fed to you"
*
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Yes. According to you Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) does not have the authority on anything because you do not believe in him. I request you to think about your own aqaid. When Hz Isa(as) comes, do you give him the authority to be a just ruler ( telling you whats right and whats not in ahadith ) ?
My faith is on Islam entirely. You cannot tell me if I'm basing my belief on one hadith or many. That is not for your to judge. You only answer what I ask you.
I quoted another hadith in support of my argument. What will your condition be when Jesus son of Mary (as) will descend upon you, and your imam will be from among you. Pardon me for writing this again. I never said the word 'will' does not mean coming in future. Ofcourse Jesus son of Mary will descend, but not the one who came some 2013 years ago. But what I'm emphasizing is for you to read the hadith again. Since you are so keen of taking things literally.. Muhammad PBUH is talking to sahabah. what will YOUR (sahaba's) condition be like ? when he will descend among YOU ( sahabah ), and he will be YOUR (sahabah) imam , from among YOU ( sahabah ). Keep in mind, none of the sahaba saw Jesus a.s coming down. They all died. Why is it that when Muhammad PBUH is talking to sahabah, you take it as people of latter times, but when he says Jesus son of Mary, you take it to be the same person ?????? That is my question. Dont beat around the bushes , and answer that question. Also, whats the need of holy prophet pbuh to mention he will be your imam from among you ?? are our imams not from among us always ?
Either sahabah are the same sahabah whom Prophet pbuh is talking to and then so is Jesus a.s . But if the "YOU" in hadith refers to latter people who will metaphorically be like that of sahabah, then Jesus a.s is mentioned metaphorically here too. You cant just interpret hadith any way you like.
This is also a false to just pretend that the Imam mentioned in this hadith is referring to Imam Mahdi. Where does it say Imam Mahdi ?? It says Your imam will be from among YOU ! They are always from among us. It shows Jesus a.s is none other than someone who will be descended in our ummah, and he will be our imam...he wont be from outside ummah.
[QUOTE]
Don’t be that sensitive my friend, does me quoting statements of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad embarrass you? and I never forced you to debate with me. My fondness to repeating over and over again is so that you may someday see the light and see the folly of following a man who dares to throw Blessed Ahadith because they tally up with his wahi? I too rejected his supposedly ‘wahi ‘ and whatever he stands for to waste paper bin!
[/QUOTE]
I have answered you on this matter. Why dont you answer me when I ask you if Jesus a.s were to tell you which hadith is authentic which is not.. are you going to nauzubillah reject him and give more importance to your molvis? really ??? this really shows how truthful you are in accepting Jesus a.s if he actually do come.
and btw, Hz Ahmad(as) do believe in sahih ahadith. It is again false to say that we do not believe in ahadith. We interpret it in a manner that it doesnt contradict the word of Allah. We interpret that one hadith do not contradict the other hadith. Ahadith are a very important part of our beliefs. It is what makes us Muslims. We get guidance from ahadith in every matter of religion.
[QUOTE]
The premises of your argument and by extension that of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is that hadith material deemed sahih by all the eminent scholars from the earliest days wrong – so their aqaid (Belief System) was wrong – and it is only Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani who has corrected and set Islam on course by Will of Allah Almighty.
Is that correct?
You are wrong to assume so.
Allah Almighty did not leave Muslims without guidance – as the following ahadith clearly state so.
Narrated from Abu Huraira (R), from the Messenger of Allah (saw), who said: “Surely, Allah will send for this Ummah at the advent of every one hundred years a person (or persons) who will renovate its religion for it.” [Sunan Abu Dawood Hakim, Baihaqi]
“Surely, Allah will send for this Ummah at the beginning (ra’s) of every hundred years a person who will revive its religion for it.” (Abu Dawud)
The Holy Prophet said, “The scholars are the inheritors of the prophets”.(Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood, Nasai, Ibn Maja, Ahmad, Ibn Hibban)
[/QUOTE]
Yes, there have been some great scholars, and mujadid in the beginning of every century who have revived Islam. No doubt in that. But to say that each and every one of the scholar and mujadid had same belief is also false. Firstly, they never argued on the coming of Jesus , death of jesus vice versa because they knew he is dead. When there was no question on this matter, they didnt talk much on this matter in the first place, and those who did , not all of them held the same belief. thats that. Now, what about 14th century ? who is the mujadid of 14th century who revived the true teachings of Islam ?
Muslims are in a state of confusion. Everywhere in the world. Look around you, look at Muslims, they have no sense of guide, no one who can lead them. one declaring other kafir, killing is an on going issue.. this reminds me of the hadith where holy prophet s.a.w. says that there will come a time when Islam will have nothing left. and Quran will only be present by its text. This is whats happening. Dr israr ahmad has tried many times to have a khilaafat, but failed miserably everytime. This is the nemat that only Jamaat e ahmadiyya has after the demise of the holy founder of jamaat e ahmadiyya.
It's like you have made up your mind.. a plot in your head that this is how it has to be done. This is how it has to take place. Imam Mahdi has to come bafore Isa(as). Imam Mahdi (as) has to die before Isa(as). You're leaving nothing in the hands of Allah. You have completely neglected everything. You cannot prove to me that Isa(as) is even alive, let alone him coming down. I must tell you, there is no hadith which states one will pray the funeral prayer of another, just to save you time.
psyah has done nothing when it comes to proving from quran and ahadith the ascension of Isa (as). Both Quran and ahadith is totally against it. Get in the habit of reading both sides of the story to help yourself make better judgement.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Lool I find it funny just imaging mahdi/messiah riding a donkey of dajjal – couldn’t afford one of his own.
You find it funny ? Yes, I'm sure you must have. Because you think of dajjal's donkey to be a donkey, and nothing but the donkey. Like I said, the donkey refers to the 'era' in which the appearance of Promised Messiah was foretold. It will be an era in which dajjal will ride it, meaning he will be the one to invent it.
How do you explain a car to someone who has never seen car before? How would u have explained something called 'car' in year 1050?
How will you explain such a person to people whose advent is certain ? You are going to need an example of a person of whom people have already known about or have seen before. This is what it is.
Dajjal >> one eyed >> good in wordly matters, but no sense of spirituality. kill those who wont accept him >> western powers. Stuck in an ireland's church >> UK. Isa(as) killing swines and breaking cross >> Christianity.
dajjal donkey >> eat fire, cover distance in matter of hours, bring out Earth treasures >>> trains, airplanes, and technology as a whole.
dajjal donkey refers to the time when dajjal will be powerful. I cant believe you cant seem to grasp it. Using of dajjal's donkey now doesnt mean anything lol. Its just merely pointing at the era. NOTHING ELSE!
GOOD LORD !
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Popat
Welcome to Dawat Section For Ahmedies i keep on presenting this link and you always try to ignore it.Please for once go and see this link with un biased mind. i think it has great evidence to prove your assumption wrong.
Can you show me correct chain of narration of these ahadith till Mirza sahib? and please can you provide us with beliefs of these sahih ahadith narrators regarding this? i have firm believe that every one of these narrators do not agree with your aqeedah.It seems weired that all these hadith chain do not agree with you (all salf saliheen ) and still you want us believe on your intrepretation?
May ALLAH guide you to true path and make you our dearest brother in islam.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Yes. According to you Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) does not have the authority on anything because you do not believe in him. I request you to think about your own aqaid. When Hz Isa(as) comes, do you give him the authority to be a just ruler ( telling you whats right and whats not in ahadith )?
As I told you my friend categorising of hadith has been done. Islam in its pristine form exists in the books but not in practice due to lack of knowledge, education, backwardness and general stagnation of Ummah. Because of this many unIslamic practices are the norm among the less educated religious wise.
Hz. Ibn Maryum (as) will correct these unIslamic practices like grave-worshiping, Sufi dances, following peers unIslamic ritual at funeral etc.
In Fact Hz. Ibn Maryum (as) will use the hadith material to get wayward Muslims back to the correct track.
That my friend includes likes of you. Hz. Ibn Maryum (as) will succeed doing this in his lifetime.
My faith is on Islam entirely. You cannot tell me if I'm basing my belief on one hadith or many. That is not for your to judge. You only answer what I ask you.
Ha ha! So I only have to answer what you ask me for. Are you taking my class or something? And you have given exclusive rights to your good self to pass judgements! Go and read your posts again and count how many you have passed judgements on others being wrong and your jamaat on the right.
Basing faith on weak hadith is fundamentally wrong. Foundation of your faith is flimsy.
I quoted another hadith in support of my argument. What will your condition be when Jesus son of Mary (as) will descend upon you, and your imam will be from among you. Pardon me for writing this again. I never said the word 'will' does not mean coming in future. Ofcourse Jesus son of Mary will descend, but not the one who came some 2013 years ago. But what I'm emphasizing is for you to read the hadith again.
Thank you for agreeing with me for once!”
Jesus son of Mary (as) will descend – not be born to Charagh Bibi in a new form.
Jesus son of Mary (as) is, as he was before and will always remain the same in the future as he was in the past.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Since you are so keen of taking things literally.. Muhammad PBUH is talking to sahabah. what will YOUR (sahaba's) condition be like ? when he will descend among YOU ( sahabah ), and he will be YOUR (sahabah) imam , from among YOU ( sahabah ). Keep in mind, none of the sahaba saw Jesus a.s coming down. They all died.
This is where you are getting it wrong.
When Prophet Muhammad (saw) stated the following:
“How will your condition be when Isa son of Mary (as) will descent among you and your Imam will be from among you”
Did the Blessed Prophet (saw) imply that Isa son of Mary (as) will descent among his blessed Companions (raa)?
Did the Prophet(saw) not know that descent of Isa son of Mary(as) will be in the end of times and not in the lifetime of his Companions (raa)
No! Because they all knew that the descent of Isa ibn Maryum (as) will be in the future – at the end of times. Right?
So the Blessed Prophet (saw) is addressing those of Ummah who will witness or will be around when Isa ibn Maryum (as) descents.
Why is it that when Muhammad PBUH is talking to sahabah, you take it as people of latter times,
My friend, Popat, please don’t think so hard – this seems to confuse you profoundly.
When the Blessed Prophet (saw) is talking about descent of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) he is talking about future – so it is obvious – very obvious that it has to be people in the future at the time of descent of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as).
The Prophet (saw) knew that descent of Isa son of Mary (as) will be in the end of times.
I hope you get it now. I can’t make it any simpler.
but when he says Jesus son of Mary, you take it to be the same person ?????? That is my question. Dont beat around the bushes , and answer that question.
When the Blessed Prophet (saw) says Jesus son of Mary, to me and all Muslims, it is Jesus son of Mary. It can’t be anyone else. For certain it was not Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ibn Chiragh Bibi. The Blessed Prophet (saw) never used this name.
Also, whats the need of holy prophet pbuh to mention he will be your imam from among you ?? are our imams not from among us always ?
Yes, that’s why the Blessed Prophet (saw) mentioned that at the time of descent of Isa ibn Maryum (as) the Imam of Ummah will be among them. By this time Imam Mahdi (as) will have established himself as the Imam of Muslims.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Either sahabah are the same sahabah whom Prophet pbuh is talking to and then so is Jesus a.s . But if the "YOU" in hadith refers to latter people who will metaphorically be like that of sahabah, then Jesus a.s is mentioned metaphorically here too. You cant just interpret hadith any way you like.
It is you and your jamaat who twisting the words here and giving metaphorical interpretation or slant to your agenda. This won’t sell. Sorry no buyers.
This is also a false to just pretend that the Imam mentioned in this hadith is referring to Imam Mahdi. Where does it say Imam Mahdi ?? It says Your imam will be from among YOU ! They are always from among us. It shows Jesus a.s is none other than someone who will be descended in our ummah, and he will be our imam...he wont be from outside ummah.
Your logic baffles me! The hadith in question says:
“How will your condition be when Isa son of Mary (as) will descent among you and your Imam will be from among you”
This has to be Imam Mahdi (as) as there are numerous other ahadith about Imam Mahdid (as) to collaborate and affirm it is so.
I have answered you on this matter. Why dont you answer me when I ask you if Jesus a.s were to tell you which hadith is authentic which is not.. are you going to nauzubillah reject him and give more importance to your molvis? really ??? this really shows how truthful you are in accepting Jesus a.s if he actually do come.
If Isa ibn Maryum (as) were to prove to me a certain hadith is weak or false I’ll believe him for certain.
Firstly, I have to be certain that it is really is Isa ibn Maryum (as) – not some wannabe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani pretending to Isa ibn Maryum (as) fraudulently.
and btw, Hz Ahmad(as) do believe in sahih ahadith. It is again false to say that we do not believe in ahadith. We interpret it in a manner that it doesnt contradict the word of Allah. We interpret that one hadith do not contradict the other hadith. Ahadith are a very important part of our beliefs. It is what makes us Muslims. We get guidance from ahadith in every matter of religion.
The Authenticity of Hadith material has already been done by great Imams in days gone by. That’s why we have Sahih ahadith, weak ahadith and false ahadith – there are many more classifications but I am keeping it simple.
Your criteria of ahadith verification is not what you have stated above.
You criteria for the ahadith to be sahih is that it should NOT contradict WAHI the Mirza Ghulam Ahmad received via angel called teechi teechi”
"The basis for our claim is not Hadith but Quran and that WAHI which comes to us. Yes in support we also quote those Hadith which are according to Quran and DO NOT CONTRADICT MY WAHI. As for the REST OF THE HADITHs, I THROW THEM AWAY LIKE A WASTE PAPER." (Roohani Khazain vol 19 p.140)
This is where you say good bye to Islam by following wahi of an imposter a charlatan.
Yes, there have been some great scholars, and mujadid in the beginning of every century who have revived Islam. No doubt in that. But to say that each and every one of the scholar and mujadid had same belief is also false. Firstly, they never argued on the coming of Jesus , death of jesus vice versa because they knew he is dead. When there was no question on this matter, they didnt talk much on this matter in the first place, and those who did , not all of them held the same belief. thats that. Now, what about 14th century ? who is the mujadid of 14th century who revived the true teachings of Islam ?
This is a blatant lie! Throughout the history all Muslim scholars believed in second coming of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) physically as himself and they believed in coming of Imam Mahdi (as).
All the ahadith material was there about descent of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) and Imam Mahdi (as) – This was the accepted fact – so there was no need for arguments it - nobody questioned except very few maybe less the five.
It is only when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad laid a false claim for himself the refutation of his false claims has started and rightly so.
Mujaddids can have different opinions or stances on many matters – it is their preference for one hadith over the other. But they always confine their opinions within Quran and Sunnah and ahadith of the Blessed Prophet (saw). They do not event new ahadith to push their own agendas, Otherwise no one will take them to Mujaddids.
At present no scholar is around to be taken as a Mujaddid.
There is no Divine proof of who is Mujaddid – Mujaddid is recognised by popular opinion on scholarship, Taqwa and services rendered for defending and propagating Islam.
psyah has done nothing when it comes to proving from quran and ahadith the ascension of Isa (as). Both Quran and ahadith is totally against it. Get in the habit of reading both sides of the story to help yourself make better judgement.
Of course I would be most surprised if you had agreed with that Brother psyah did a great job. Brother psyah did what he had to do. He used Quran and ahadith with great effect. But when hearts are sealed nothing goes in.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Popat My friend now I sympathize with you - the fault lies not in you but you are fed by your ‘authorities’
The hadith which you have quoted a lot is translated thus:
“How will your condition be when Isa son of Mary (as) will descent among you and your Imam will be from among you”
And see how your authorities deliberately twisted the words or imposed new words to change the meaning to suit their nefarious agenda.
Look at no. 7 This is from official Ahmadi/Qadiani site.
A few prophecies from the Books of Hadith are:
(Bukhari, Kitabul Anbiya, Bab Nazool Isa)
The Advent of the Messiah and Mahdi
They should be ashamed of themselves - Poor you gets to be fed wrong information.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
As I told you my friend categorising of hadith has been done. Islam in its pristine form exists in the books but not in practice due to lack of knowledge, education, backwardness and general stagnation of Ummah. Because of this many unIslamic practices are the norm among the less educated religious wise.
Hz. Ibn Maryum (as) will correct these unIslamic practices like grave-worshiping, Sufi dances, following peers unIslamic ritual at funeral etc.
In Fact Hz. Ibn Maryum (as) will use the hadith material to get wayward Muslims back to the correct track.
That my friend includes likes of you. Hz. Ibn Maryum (as) will succeed doing this in his lifetime.
He will correct unislamic practices ? dont we already know whats islamic and whats not ? It's the beliefs that he will change in Muslim Ummah which have misguided them. Whats halal and whats haram is already in Quran and hadith. He will teach you the correct interpretation of quran and ahadith.
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Jesus son of Mary (as) will descend – not be born to Charagh Bibi in a new form.
Jesus son of Mary (as) is, as he was before and will always remain the same in the future as he was in the past.
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Will descend like Muhammad PBUH was descended. Like animals are descended. Like garment is descended. Jesus a.s is dead. A person who will be of wheatish complexion is named Jesus a.s by Muhammad PBUH, who will be 'born'. He a.s will have the characteristics of Jesus a.s
If Jesus a.s will remain the same as he was in the past.. then you are suppose to take the hadith of 'how will YOUR condition be.. " to mean sahabah, and not YOU , or latter time people. None of the sahaba saw Jesus a.s coming down. If by "YOU" in the hadith means latter time people who will be like sahaba, then Jesus a.s is said metaphorically too.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
This is where you are getting it wrong.
When Prophet Muhammad (saw) stated the following:
“How will your condition be when Isa son of Mary (as) will descent among you and your Imam will be from among you”
Did the Blessed Prophet (saw) imply that Isa son of Mary (as) will descent among his blessed Companions (raa)?
Did the Prophet(saw) not know that descent of Isa son of Mary(as) will be in the end of times and not in the lifetime of his Companions (raa)
No! Because they all knew that the descent of Isa ibn Maryum (as) will be in the future – at the end of times. Right?
So the Blessed Prophet (saw) is addressing those of Ummah who will witness or will be around when Isa ibn Maryum (as) descents.
Then, the hadith should have been ' how will people of latter time's condition be when Jesus a.s will descend among THEM, and THEIR imam will be from among THEM "
Talking to sahabah , and yet u take it as people of latter times. Then taking Jesus a.s to be the same person. Makes no sense. Do you agree that latter people is called 'sahaba' metaphorically like that of Muhammad PBUH's sahabah ?
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My friend, Popat, please don’t think so hard – this seems to confuse you profoundly.
When the Blessed Prophet (saw) is talking about descent of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) he is talking about future – so it is obvious – very obvious that it has to be people in the future at the time of descent of Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as).
The Prophet (saw) knew that descent of Isa son of Mary (as) will be in the end of times.
I hope you get it now. I can’t make it any simpler.
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YOUR condition. YOUR Imam, from among YOU. Rather than 'their' condition, 'their' imam, from among 'them'.
Also, is our imam not always from among us ?? and where does it say its Imam mahdi ?
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When the Blessed Prophet (saw) says Jesus son of Mary, to me and all Muslims, it is Jesus son of Mary. It can’t be anyone else. For certain it was not Mirza Ghulam Ahmad ibn Chiragh Bibi. The Blessed Prophet (saw) never used this name.
Yes, that’s why the Blessed Prophet (saw) mentioned that at the time of descent of Isa ibn Maryum (as) the Imam of Ummah will be among them. By this time Imam Mahdi (as) will have established himself as the Imam of Muslims.
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'son of Mary' is a quality. All momineen are referred by Allah by Mariam Bibi (as) and Asiya bibi. Whosoever keeps themselves unchaste is like that of Mariam (as). Isa a.s is the name given by Muhammad PBUH to the future person so that people realize his role will be that of Isa a.s. Just like how Isa a.s came at the end of Musvi shariya.
Jesus a.s is dead. Hes not coming back. People who die do not come back to life until the day of judgement. Also, previous prophets do not come in the future prophet's shariyah. This is not acceptable by the teachings of Islam. Jesus a.s despite being a prophet of Allah and preacher of tawheed is NOT muslim as the muslim shariyah came into existence AFTER the appearance of holy prophet pbuh.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
It is you and your jamaat who twisting the words here and giving metaphorical interpretation or slant to your agenda. This won’t sell. Sorry no buyers.
Your logic baffles me! The hadith in question says:
“How will your condition be when Isa son of Mary (as) will descent among you and your Imam will be from among you”
This has to be Imam Mahdi (as) as there are numerous other ahadith about Imam Mahdid (as) to collaborate and affirm it is so.
Our imam is always from among us. What was the need of saying that in the first place? Jesus a.s will descend ( descend doesnt mean from skies, descend like Muhammad PBUH, like animals, like garments etc ). And he will be our imam who will be from among us.
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If Isa ibn Maryum (as) were to prove to me a certain hadith is weak or false I’ll believe him for certain.
Firstly, I have to be certain that it is really is Isa ibn Maryum (as) – not some wannabe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani pretending to Isa ibn Maryum (as) fraudulently.
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Thank you. So, to you .. u dont believe in hz ahmad (as) . Fair enough. But why would u point finger at me for things you will exactly do after confirming someone is Isa (as) ? Kindly stop for a moment and re-think.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Peace Mr.Popat
“How will your condition be when Isa son of Mary (as) will descend among you and your Imam will be from among you"
When there is no reason to interpret then usool is that we take literally. Our condition is to be taken literally ... Isa ibnMaryam (AS) is to be taken literally and the descent is taken literally and the Imam is a literal reference ... The you and your is also taken literally ...
From this Hadith alone a Sahabi could deduce that Isa ibn Maryam (AS) may well descend straight away ... The caliphs/ameers/imams were already understood.
There is a difference between literal and interpretation and physical vs spiritual and how linguistic norms are applied.
Recognising that RasoolAllah (SAW) is the prophet of all nations and all times, that message is a message for the Sahabah and for the rest of the ummah ... That information is obtained from knowing the speech of RasoolAllah (SAW) and the pattern used ... Similar to the pattern in the last sermon. Where it was stated "take these words to who are not present" meaning pass these words down your generations. This is not interpretation ... This is a linguistic understanding.
The problem is when we come to the term Isa ibn Maryam (AS) ... This is a problem because you will bring your understanding with you and we will bring ours. As long as you assert that Isa ibn Maryam (AS) is different to the the one we recognise then you will always view this Hadith through your understanding and us through our own.
So more information than this is necessary to deduct who is this Isa ...
our reasons for saying it is THE Isa (AS) is because of the full name usage ... In Arabic when you want to specifically ID someone they used to and today still use the father's name ... And this is also the case in our resurrection we will be attached to our father's names. Isa (AS) had no father ... So he (AS) is attached to his mother's name ... It explains a lot, however, you don't have any evidence from within this Hadith that supports your idea that this Isa (AS) is different ... Because neither RasoolAllah (SAW) qualified that difference nor did the Sahabah ...
Secondly, this Hadith separates the persons of Isa (AS) and Imam through ataf (conjunction) and again this is taken to mean two people distinct from one another. Our position is stronger because that is the normal way of reading and understanding this passage with respect to the Arabic language.
Re: Imam Mahdi (RA) and Hazrat Isa (AS)
Aha You mean he will make new interpretation to Quran and Hadith? Most likely, misinterpretation.
Like Hz. Adam (as) a person living in Mesopotamia and Mr. Iblis was a wicked neighbour of his???
No thank you – you keep to it to yourself.
The blessed Prophet Muhammad (saw) was born – His father’s name is Abdullah and his mother’s is Aminah.
On his second coming Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) will descend from Sky to Earth.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was born – his father’s name is Mirza Ghulam Murtaza and mother’s name Chiragh Bibi
Better still the hadith should have been said in Punjabi (Language spoken by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed) so this confusion wouldn’t arisen in your jamaat’s mind (this is on lighter note)
**
Popat** now you are being unreasonable – You can’t dictate how the Blessed Prophet (saw) should have spoken – the fault lies in your understanding – or deliberate twisting of interpretation to confuse you guys for jamaat’s ulterior motives.
Consider the Farewell Sermon of the Blessed Prophet (saw). I have taken just a few parts from it to make a point.
Here the Blessed Prophet (saw) was addressing the Companions (raa) – Do you think he was talking only to his Companions (raa) or Ummah at large till the end of times?
When the Blessed Prophet (saw) says: “O People” – who do you, think he is addressing to? All the Muslims till the end of times or just his Companions only?
*"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.
Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.
O People, listen to me in earnest, worship ALLAH, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.*
IslamiCity.com - Mosque - The Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) Last Sermon
There you go blundering yet again!
All the Prophets (asa) including Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum (as) are Muslims! The Quran says so.
Definition of a Muslim is the one submits/surrenders himself/herself to the Will of Allah Almighty
Consider the following ayahs;
And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous. 2:130
When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds. 2:131
In the above ayah Hz Ibrahim (as) is declared a Muslim!
Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. [3:84]
In the above ayah we are commanded NOT to make any distinction between the Prophets of Allah Almighty!
Thus all the Prophets (asa) of Allah Almighty are Muslims.