If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

What you’ll think?

If you believe British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live in the UK?

“I am worried my children will take on British values and be totally gora-fied” says this British Pakistani mother who phoned me for some information regarding places of interest for tourists in and around our picture perfect British town. Her sister and niece are coming over from Pakistan on a six month visit visa, after several refusals by the British High Commission, she tells me with great pride in her voice. Persistence pays, for sure.

In the very next breath, when I inquire about her children, just following the etiquette of a polite conversation, she blurts out the sentence that makes me uncomfortable and at the same time gets me thinking: “I am worried my children will take on British values and be totally gora-fied”.

She is supporting a local Pakistani initiative to set up a faith based school. Once the school is ready, she will pull out her children from the mainstream school; send them to the one that would be based on Muslim values with some garnish of Pakistani culture. That would save her children from becoming “goras”.

After I put the phone down, I kept thinking about the contradictions and confusion in our thought processes. On the one hand we badly crave British citizenship; on the other we reject the British values. How proud this woman was at the fact that her sister and niece had been granted a UK visit visa, after several attempts but couldn’t see her prejudice and dislike for British values and the “goras”.

A growing number of European Muslims are rejecting European and Western values. They believe that it’s impossible to be a good Muslim and a good European citizen at the same time. If that’s what they believe, why do they immigrate to Europe in the first place is the question I wish to ask. And I want honest answers.

I would like to ask the Pakistani citizens who wish to move to the European or western countries: Do you consider this fact – i.e. incompatibility of British/Western and Islamic values – when you start the immigration process?

If the British values that promote democracy, gender equality, freedom of speech, are not acceptable to you then perhaps you are better off staying where you are or choose oil-rich Muslim countries like UAE or KSA if you must. If the values you hold dear support gender segregation, isolation, gender inequality, homophobia, hatred of other faiths then Europe or West isn’t the place to make your home.

We read, see and hear many sad stories where precious lives are lost in the pursuit of protecting the values immigrants hold dear. Women often, however not exclusively, bear the brunt of this overpowering and irrational desire to preserve and adhere to the infallible Islamic values. I am reminded of the tragic honour killings of three Afghan teenagers in Canada a few years ago. Mohammed Shafia who had moved to Canada from Afghanistan wasn’t too happy with his daughters’ lifestyles. For him they were a “disgrace” to the family honour as they dated boys and wore inappropriate western clothes. Certainly a deviance from Islamic/Afghan value system!

In the UK too such cases aren’t unheard of. The horrific murder of Shafilea Ahmed, that was a direct consequence of this clash between British and Islamic values, will remain etched on my memory as long as I live. Shafilea was brutally murdered by both her parents in 2003 in the presence of her siblings because she was deemed to have become too ‘westernised’. Shafilea was regularly abused and then murdered for being a ‘normal teenager’ and embracing all that Britain stands for – freedom, independence, democracy and the right to choose whom she wished to marry.

Honour killings of girls who reject the “Islamic values” are rare and happen only in extreme cases, some may argue. No doubt about that however honour killings are rooted in a belief that women or in some cases men who exercise their basic human right of freedom of speech and thought endanger the whole community’s reputation. They break away from the Islamic values and therefore deserve to be punished. Those who escape death for rejecting the Islamic values are ostracised and face, rejection and isolation from their families and the wider community. They are targeted by labels like “gora” “coconut” “westernised” “shameless”, etc.

Not only the new immigrants but the ones who have been living here for three or four generations choose not to integrate into the British society, because in their eyes it’s a morally bankrupt society. Free mixing of genders, female emancipation, acceptance of same sex marriages, pre-marital sex, cohabiting couples, are evils afflicting the western society, they believe.

A few weeks ago, I was training a group of Pakistani women around appropriate use of vocabulary when referring to people from ethnic backgrounds different to theirs. The rationale being we all have prejudices and in a multicultural society it is important we combat our own prejudices too. We discussed why embracing diversity wasn’t only indigenous population’s responsibility, the ethnic minority communities too had a role to play.

One of the participants, Tasnim Bibi, an elderly woman who made Britain her home about 40 years ago summed up the whole issue of compatibility. During the training session she had indicated how fed up she was with the segregation narrative a large section of the Pakistani community had adopted. In her broken English combined with some Punjabi, she laid bare the quintessential Muslim dilemma: “We are a community that thinks we are the best, because our religion is the best of all. Everyone else is second to us therefore it’s futile to expect us to adopt British Values as we see them as inferior to our values by virtue of being the followers of the best book given to humankind. Why would we leave our superior values to take on something that is inferior?”

The British Pakistanis who support integration and embrace diversity, a minority within a minority, term this rejection of British values blatant hypocrisy. According to them, those who hate the Western culture and values but want their immigration and benefits at the same time are nothing but hypocrites. When they reach Europe, they want to impose their culture on the host societies or they choose to segregate themselves from the indigenous population to prevent their children adopting European/western values. However their voices are either dismissed as rants of a few troublemakers or stifled by levelling charges of fanning the flames of Islamophobia.

Having realized that multiculturalism as a policy of diversity management has failed, the British government is now focusing on promoting the fundamental British values which are democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty, and mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs. However the British government’s strategy to promote British values hasn’t been embraced or welcomed by all. In some segments of the society it has met with criticism exasperation and bewilderment “The list of values was seen as vacuous nonsense in the Daily Telegraph, and as parochial, patronising and arrogant and meaningless at best, dangerous at worst and a perversion of British history in any case in the Guardian”.

Amongst the British Muslim community there are grave concerns as many feel that they risk being labelled “extremists” for supposedly failing to accept British values. The counter-extremism think-tank Quilliam has urged the government to base counter-extremism efforts around human rights, rather than “contentious” British values. One may ask why the British Muslims have an issue with British values? Why they think they are ambiguous or contentious or biased? And why Quilliam suggests using a human rights narrative rather than the British values discourse? How are the British values any different from human rights? It seems Quilliam by making this suggestion are trying to appease those in the Muslim community who believe British values are incompatible with Islamic values.

The concept of human rights is embedded in British values. We are free to practice our faith, celebrate our festivals, and build places of worship. There is no restriction on our movement, no restriction on buying properties or businesses, we have equal opportunities. Despite this, if we still choose to reject British values and deem them incompatible with and inferior to Muslim values then something is certainly rotten in the state of Denmark. Figuratively speaking…

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

Although I'm in Canada and not the UK, I suppose my opinions/observations could still apply. I've had this discussion a couple of times with people from Canada (online). Among the topics that seem to trigger a discussion on Islamic values vs. Canadian/Western ones as I've observed are hijab/niqab as well as halal food. From what I've seen, I've observed the following:

  1. Those who claim that Canadian/Western values are being undermined are not able to define what Canadian/Western values are when asked
  2. Even among the non(recent) immigrants, there isn't a common understanding on what exactly these values are.
  3. This discussion on values seems more like something that is brought up by politicians (or for political reasons) than an actual issue that needs addressing.

Otherwise, my stance on this is that it seems more of an issue with norms than with actual values. In Western societies there will be norms that we don't agree with or partake in due to our Islamic teachings/values and some of our practices may be contrary to those norms as well. However there is nothing wrong with that. We can be tolerant of the norms we won't adopt without having to conform to them. Even supposedly Islamic societies will have elements that are part of their norms that conflict with Islamic values while there are many things we can find in Western society that are much more in line with Islamic values than what we might see in Muslim majority countries. As with any society/system I say we take the good and leave the bad.

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

Very good post :k:

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

What are British values? Is it what we see on eastenders? Erm then no thanks.

Most Muslims I know work,pay taxes, eat fish n chips, watch football, speak English especially the second and following generation s,

Erm what else?
Apart from getting drunk on a daily basis what else is there to adopt?

On the other hand, I'm proud to be British . And try our best.

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

I really don't know why people keep coming over to the gora countries if they hate the majority of the people who live there so much. There are other minorities living in segregation too in the US such as the Amish but really they don't bother anyone. These gora counties have given you their citizenship while by and large the Arab countries don't. Freedom you enjoy here is much more than many other countries and you are doing much better financially than most people in your home country but still goras are bad! Its ok to hold on to your religious values and norms but to have such hatred for another people is awful! One Pakistani friend of mine keeps saying how bad it was of another Pakistani family who moved to another state, to gift something to the local public school. Why not? they are giving your children good quality free education. Ever thought of how Government schools operate in Pakistan?

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

I agree

Adapt more or go home.

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

Quilliam foundation is a joke run by a former religious nutter turned strip club frequenter. Nawaz and Chaudhary are opposite sides of the same coin in respect to the effect that their words have on moderate Muslims.

The thing is people just can't adapt when they come to this country in respect to British culture. When in Rome.....

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

Now you're upset over a string of mindsets and cultural ethics.

..Fine..

What does that have to do with Islam?

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

So, If I live in Pakistan and do not like some of the Pakistani 'values' and do not want my children to adopt them, shall I leave?

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

Yes. Move to India, which may be more aligned with your values.

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

Actually, that is not point that author is trying to make. What her point is that immigrants are coming to western countries (UK) and try to recreate what they left in their home countries & they don't integrates b/c they think their values (religion/language/dress code, etc.,) are superior to that of native Brits. She also mentioned cases of honor killings, forced marriages, etc that are contrary to British values. I think her questions are valid IMO.

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

Honor Killings, foreced marriages, etc. are unlawful in most countries. Only that the law is applied selectively.

As long as people are not discriminating others, hurting others, fulfilling their civic duties, following the law and paying their social dues, there shouldn't be a problem with how they like to dress or what they like to eat.

If you are so proud of your freedom and liberties, why not let Pakistani/Indian communities live the way they want to? Hypocrisy would be if these communities migrate to the west and then break their laws (which we often do, but that's a legal matter and not related to values).

Islamic countries do not publicize 'freedom' and 'liberty' as their fundamental values, so this might not apply to these countries.

Re: If British and Islamic values are incompatible, why do you want to live there?

Couldn't agree more!!

But there are certain people or groups which keep to themselves, and have no interaction with the local people. Schools and friends and even companies they work for have no goras. They live a totally segregated life. Saying that they do all the stuff Nadz said, eat fish and chips n all, don't like desi food, can't speak Urdu, wear English clothes under their hijabs/abayas. So they are basically true Brits.

Agree with this too, to me pakistani children seem more chalak where as we would be more upfront and say things as they are, straight up to your face. Another thing about pakistan is the corruption. So do we leave? Not everyone can leave, but I think the main reason that people leave pakistan is because of the corruption and to give their children a Better Future. Why else do they get up and leave?