Im just wondering how idolatry is actually defined in Islam…
Is someone and idolator if they actually believe the idol itself to be God or is simply worshipping the idol itself idolatry?
Cos my Hindu friends argument is that the idol itself is a representation of God but they dont actually acknowledge the idol itself to be God…
So just looking for answers from someone who can define idolatry and also for someone who can accurately tell me what Hindus view of the literal idol is…
Jazakallah
Re: Idolatry...
What's so complex?
An idol is just a piece of wood stone or metal - obviously when one prays to an idol they're praying to the God or Goddess respresented in that form.
Re: Idolatry...
^ who make those idols?
So if a human makes an idol of wood one can say this idol represent the form of wood goddess?
Now can that wood god give you a house of wood or something you need in the form of wood?
And if we go by that theory does one have to create so many idols to represent the form of goddess of that particular thing and than sit in front of IT to be able to have/recieve that thing such as stone = goddess of stone, steel = goddess of steel and so on...?
Just trying to understand the logic and trying to make sence out of what you said.
Re: Idolatry...
idolatry to my udnerstanding is when you worshipe an idol, be that in phsycial sense or in heart of your heart. As iqbal aptly said
main jo sir basajda hua kabhi tu zameen say aney lagi sada
tera dil tu hai sanam ashna tujhey kiya milay ga namaz main
Re: Idolatry...
The quran
"Sight perceives Him not. But He perceives men's sights; for He is the knower of secrets , the Aware."
Kena Upanishad:
"That which cannot be seen by the eye but through which the eye itself sees, know That to be Brahman (God) and not what people worship here (in the manifested world)."
A simplified meaning of both the above verses reads:
God is one and that He is beyond man's sensory experience.]
Re: Idolatry…
don’t hurt your head too much - it’s much simpler than all that. It’s all in your head. nobody said you have to make an idol in wood if you want a wooden object, though noone said you shouldn’t. You do what you like. Whatever gives you the peace of mind.
Refer a couple quotes rviks has posted …use whatever means to address that which cannot be (fully) comprehended.
Some people torture themselves with rituals and sacrifices and others can do it all within their minds.
No different from some people needing paper & pencil, some needing a calculator and some needing just their minds to visualize and solve the identical arithemetic.
Re: Idolatry…
there is no such thing as only muslims have access to true god and god works agianst all others in support of muslims.
Re: Idolatry...
FJ and rvikz you guys are not answering what I asked instead of going off topic. It would be nice to have some logical answer specially on the basis of your belief. Oh well if one cannot answer than its good to derail the topic and get away with it.
Re: Idolatry…
who make those idols?
Humans and Nature (naturally formed)
So if a human makes an idol of wood one can say this idol represent the form of wood goddess?
No, it can be a godess of wood or plastic or computer – your belief is important…
Now can that wood god give you a house of wood or something you need in the form of wood?
God does not give you anything. You have to achieve everything.
And if we go by that theory does one have to create so many idols to represent the form of goddess of that particular thing and than sit in front of IT to be able to have/recieve that thing such as stone = goddess of stone, steel = goddess of steel and so on…?
Better create idols of God’s than doing none (some idols are better than no idols)…
Re: Idolatry…
it depends on how you define idolatory
A very strong attachment to one’s country that a religion considers inappropriate. In this case nationalism could be considered a form of idolatry.
A very strong desire to gain sex and wealth that a religion considers inappropriate. In this case greed could be considered a form of idolatry.
A very strong desire to gain fame or recognition that a religion considers inappropriate. In this case egocentrism could be considered a form of idolatry .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry#Idolatry_in_many_forms
The concept of God without form or Nirguna Brahman is not unique to Judaism or Islam and is in fact held in Hinduism. However, human beings are sensory beings and have a need to visualize God with form. The personal forms of God (i.e., Saguna Brahman is expressed through Vishnu or Shiva.
Re: Idolatry...
teaser - if your definition of answer is "something that is palatable and acceptable to you" then you will not get the answers you seek many times. OTOH, if you are seeking the truth w.o prejudice, I have already given you the answer that can set you in the right path. If you want to win the lottery, you have to take the ticket first.
Re: Idolatry...
^^ exactly the same thing can be said about you "you will see things the way they please you" but the real test comes where people can really see the truth or willing to know the truth and have the guts to agree with it.
As I mentioned in my orignal post I was trying to understand the concept how people can something from idol which they make with their own hands. Mabye for you its hard not to imagine God as some sort of form as compare to Muslims we believe you can not imagine God as being in the form of wood, steel, or what ever this is something that cannot be answered till the day of judgement and infect its one of the many tests of this world.
I was not trying to discriminate or degrade your beliefs or Hinduism.
Re: Idolatry...
If the idol is not the actual god being worshipped, and its a representation, then why the need for the idol? Why not just worship in your mind or facing nothing?
In Islam, idolatry is not allowed because you're saying "hey this is God's form", and muslims don't claim God to have one form or another, cuz we say we don't know. Therein lies the sin.
Re: Idolatry…
no structure or building has any magical power including mecca.
muslims dont have any special privilage since they pray in different manner
and nobody owes anything .
Re: Idolatry...
Idol worship doe not exclude non-Idol worship. Nothing stops you from worshipping the God of your choice in any form or without a form.
But, IMO there is a basic dishonesty in most (won't say all) who say they're thinking of God without attributing some form. The said 'most' won't likely admit it because unfortunately they have been WRONGLY trained over generations that attributing form to God is sin (which it is not even if you're muslim)
Re: Idolatry...
Here's a detailed response that I received from Islamtoday.com, which sums up the Islamic belief on idolatry:
[quote]
Assalamo alaykum, Someone has posed this question. Could you please answer it, insha'Allah: "Im just wondering how idolatry is actually defined in Islam... Is someone and idolator if they actually believe the idol itself to be God or is simply worshipping the idol itself idolatry? Cos my Hindu friends argument is that the idol itself is a representation of God but they dont actually acknowledge the idol itself to be God... So just looking for answers from someone who can define idolatry" Jazakumullahu khairan.
Answered by: Sheikh Sâlih al-Zahrânî
All praise is due to Allah and may peace and blessing be upon our Prophet Muhammad.
Idols are the statues that are fashioned in the shape of a human being or other creature and worshipped besides Allah.
Fetishes are whatever is worshipped other than Allah, whatever form it takes. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “O my Lord do not let my grave be worshipped as a fetish.” [Musnad Ahmad and al-Muwatta’]
The term fetish (wathan) has a more general meaning than the term idol (sanam).
The worship of idols and fetishes takes various forms. They are as numerous as are the possible ways of worship are numerous.
Prostration to them is a form of worship, offering sacrifices to them is another, and invoking a vow in their name is another.
The same applies to the devotions of the heart that are acts of worship, like feeling for one of these fetishes the love, reliance, fear, or hope that are due to Allah alone and like turning to them in repentance. It is idolatry to focus such feelings and devotions upon anyone or anything else besides Allah alone.
Allah tells us about those who give over their love and devotion in worship to other than Allah. He says: “Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah): they love them as they should love Allah, but those who believe are overflowing in their love for Allah.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 165]
With respect to fear and awe, Allah says: “It is only the Satan that suggests to you the fear of his votaries: be ye not afraid of them, but fear Me, if ye have faith.” [Sûrah Âl-`Imrân: 175]
With respect to trust and reliance being worship, Allah says: “But in Allah put your trust if ye have faith.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’dah: 23]
For turning in repentance, Allah says: “Turn ye in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah.” [Sûrah al-Rûm: 31]
In short, everything that is deemed to be a form of worship to Allah may not be offered to other than Allah. It is idolatry and polytheism to do so. Allah says: “One who joins other gods with Allah has strayed far, far away (from the right).” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 116]
Idolatry is not confined to the worship of physical statues and fetishes. There are immaterial idols which people succumb to in their worship, like the whims and vain desires that go against Allah’s religion and His law. Whoever follows his vain desires instead of Allah’s religion has taken an idol of sorts as a god in worship besides Allah.
Allah says: “Have you seen such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, left him astray upon knowledge and sealed his hearing and his heart, and set a covering upon his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah? Will ye not then receive admonition?” [Sûrah al-Jâthiyah: 23]
Following one’s whims means the adoption of deviant principles, ideologies and philosophies. The pious predecessors used to refer to the people who followed their heretical whims and ideas as “the people of vain desires and innovations”.
Therefore, we must realize that the worship of idols is not confined to a special type of behavior or a particular form. There ways of engaging in idol worship are as numerous as all the ways a person can conceivably engage in worship.
In the beginning, humanity was united in pure monotheism. Allah says: “Mankind was one single nation. And Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; And with them He sent the book in truth to judge between people in matters wherein they differed.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 213]
Humanity knew nothing of idolatry except after ten epochs had passed from the time of Adam to the time of Noah (peace be upon them both). This is the time when idolatry and the worship of other than Allah first took place. This is why Allah sent Noah; to call the people to return to monotheism Allah and abandon idol worship.
When Noah came to his people with this message, they rejected it. Allah tells us: “And they said (to each other): ‘Abandon not your gods, abandon neither Wadd nor Suwâ, neither Yaghûth nor Yaûq nor Nasr.” [Sûrah Nûh: 23]
Ibn `Abbâs tells us that these names belonged to pious people who had belonged to Noah’s nation aforetime. When those pious people died, Satan inspired the people to erect statues in the places where they used to sit and confer upon those statues the names of those people. This they did. At that time, however, the statues were not worshipped.
However, after that generation had passed away and knowledge was lost, those statues were taken as objects of worship.
After that, the idols of Noah’s people became the idols of the Arab tribes. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (4920)]
This state of affairs continued until Allah sent His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who demolished them.
All nations had a Prophet to call them to the worship of Allah alone to and leave whatever else of idols and fetishes they had been worshipping. Allah says: And there has never been a people who have not had a warner live among them.” [Sûrah Fâtir: 24]
The evil affects of idolatry
The negative affect of worshipping idols on a person’s mental and emotional state are numerous. Some of these have been mentioned in Allah’s book. We will briefly mention a few of these by way of example:
- Lack of security, contentment and inner peace. Allah says, conveying to us the words of Abraham (peace be upon him) to his people: “How should I fear (the beings) you associate with Allah, when you fear not to give partners to Allah without any authority having been given to you? Which of (us) two parties hash more right to security, if you possess knowledge? It is those who believe and mix not their beliefs with oppression. It is these who have security, for they are rightly guided.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 81-82]
The oppression in this verse refers to polytheism as Allah says: “Indeed polytheism is the mightiest of oppression.” [Sûrah Luqmân: 13]
- Intellectual and moral decline. This comes from people worshipping others like themselves who possess neither the ability to help or harm them. Even worse, they worship inanimate objects that neither hear nor see.
Allah says: “They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah.; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no God but He, glory be to Him above the partners they ascribe to Him.” [Sûrah al-Tawbah: 31]
Allah says: “Why worship that which neither hears nor sees and can profit you nothing?” [Sûrah Maryam: 42]
He says: “If you invoke them, they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer your (prayer). On the day of Judgment they will reject your ‘partnership’. None can inform you like Him Who is All-Aware.” [Sûrah Fâtir: 14]
He says: “But the supplication of those without faith is nothing but vain error.” [Sûrah Ghâfir: 50]
The pursuit of uncertainties and lies. Allah says: “Behold, verily to Allah belong all creatures in the heavens and on Earth. Those who follow aught instead of Allah do not follow His partners. They follow nothing but conjecture and they do noting but lie.” [Sûrah Yûnus: 66]
Inconsistency in behavior, thought, and worship. Allah says: “And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating (others as partners) with Him.” [Sûrah Yûsuf: 106]
Confusion and the inability to distinguish between what is beneficial and what is harmful. Allah says: “Say: ‘Do ye then take (for worship) protectors other than Him, such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves? Say: ‘Are the blind equal with those who see? Or the depths of darkness equal with light?’ Or do they assign to Allah partners who have created (anything) as He has created, so that the creation seemed to them similar? Say: ‘Allah is the Creator of all things: He is the One, the Supreme and Overpowering’.” [Sûrah al-Ra`d: 16]
Crass opportunism and a tendency to take advantage of others. This is the attitude that people who worship gods beside Allah exhibit in their relationship with Allah. Allah says: “Yet, when He removes the distress from you, behold, some of you turn to other gods to join with their Lord” [Sûrah al-Nahl: 54]
He says: “Now, if they embark on a boat, they call on Allah, making their devotion sincerely (and exclusively) to him, but when He has delivered them safely to (dry) land, behold, they give a share (of their worship to others)” [Sûrah al-`Ankabût: 65]
He also says: “When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord turning back to Him, in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of mercy from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other gods besides their Lord” [Sûrah al-Rûm: 33]
They worship Allah sincerely when they face hardship and after Allah gives them relief from their hardship, they turn again to worshipping other gods beside Allah.
- Idolatry and other forms of polytheism give Satan a way to have power over the polytheist. Consequently, many of the polytheist’s behaviors and attitudes are derived from Satan’s whispers and suggestions.
Allah says: “So when you recite the Quran, seek refuge with Allah from Satan the rejected one. No authority has he over those who believe and put their trust in their Lord. His authority is over those only, who take him as patron and who join partners with Allah.” [Sûrah al-Nahl: 98-100]
Allah says: “Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy, satans among men and Jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourse by way of deception.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 112]
- A narrow, materialistic worldview. The more blessings he experiences, the more reckless and arrogant he gets and the more heedless he becomes of his Lord. He becomes more and more steeped in his worship of other gods.
Allah describes such a person in the Qur’ân, saying: “(Abundant) was the produce this man had. He said to his companion, in the course of a mutual argument: ‘have greater wealth than you, and am mightier in followers.’ He went into his garden while he oppressed himself. He said: ‘I hold that none of this will ever perish, nor do I deem that the Hour (of Judgment) will (ever) come. Even if I am brought back to my Lord, I shall surely find (there) something better in exchange.” [Sûrah al-Kahf: 34-36]
Such people are greedy for the worldly life. Allah says: “You will indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life, even more than the idolaters: each one of them wishes he could be given a life of a thousand years: but the grant of such life will not save him from (due) chastisement for Allah sees well all that they do” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 96]
Indecisiveness, perplexity, and incoherence of thought. A polytheist finds his life always beset with uncertainty on account of the numerous focuses of worship that he has. Allah says: “Allah puts forth a parable a man belonging to many partners at variance with each other, and a man belonging entirely to one master: are those two equal in comparison? Praise be to Allah, but most of them have no knowledge” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 29]
Depression, frustration, and despair of Allah’s mercy. Many idolaters commit suicide. Allah says: “Those whom Allah wills to guide, He opens their breast to Islam; those whom He wills to leave straying, He makes their breast close and constricted, as if they have to climb up to the skies. Thus doesh Allah lay abomination on those who refuse to believe.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 125]
Allah says: “And who despairs of the mercy of his Lord but such as go astray?” [Sûrah al-Hijr: 56]
These are but a few of the evil affects of idolatry on the people who engage in it. There are many more. Far worse than all of these, however, are the consequences that idolatry has on a person in the Hereafter. A person who dies on polytheism will never be forgiven. He will be eternally consigned to Hell.
Every benefit and advantage of conferred on a person by worshipping Allah alone is matched by an equal portion of mischief and suffering for the polytheist.
And Allah knows best.
[/quote]
Re: Idolatry...
for a vast majority of us, it is extremely impossible to focus our mind on 'god' for more than a couple of seconds, even though we would like to believe that this is not true. How many of us can claim that our mind does not wander when we pray or read the quran?
Hinduism does not require you to seek god. It encourages you to seek yourself. A big step towards this is when one is able to focus one's mind, even if it is only for a few seconds. Eastern religions, I think, believe that such a focussed state is bliss or that a man can do things then that he normally cannot. Witness the fantasy stories associated with karate or kungfu.
If unification of the senses is the goal, there are only two possibilities - you either shut off your senses one by one - closing your eyes in prayer, for example, or get all of them to focus on only one perception. That is what an idol could help you do - it is a bit easier to think of something that you are also 'seeing'.
Why do you need prayers? It keeps you occupied and lessens the chances of your mind wandering. I believe that even the ones who have learnt various scriptures by heart are required to read them from a text.
How many of us pick up a photograph of a loved one that we have left back home when we think of them? Why is that required if your loved ones are in your mind and heart?
Re: Idolatry…
According to one version, Krsna says the exact same thing !!!
“Satrajit, however, did not come to see Krsna; he was instead overwhelmed by the jewel of Syamantaka. He installed the jewel in a temple to be worshiped by brahmanas he engaged for this purpose. This is an instance of a less intelligent person worshiping a material thing. In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that less intelligent persons, in order to get immediate results from their fruitive activities, worship the demigods who are created within this universe. The word “materialist” means one concerned with gratification of the senses within this material world.”](http://www.krsnabook.com/ch56.html)