I wonder ...

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I wonder if people here are having more difficult time educating others that our Prophet (PBUH) had while delivering the message of Islam.

I am no scholar, but I do believe and it’s my faith that Muhammad (pbuh) won the hearts not by name calling but his exemplary conduct. People used to throw rubbish at him and all he would do is smile back and prayed for these souls.

I wonder if we are following our Prophet or not. The recent threads were badly needed, but they have done more damage than repair.

May I ask my Muslim scholar brothers to follow our Prophets Sunnah first before preaching it? (that’s a sunnah in itself, Muhammad pbuh never said what he did not do).

Just wondering…

2

Azkar Pra!

In which sense you are talking about that!

Rgds

Nadeem

3

[quote]
Originally posted by Azkar Choudhry:
**I wonder if people here are having more difficult time educating others that our Prophet (PBUH) had while delivering the message of Islam.

I am no scholar, but I do believe and it’s my faith that Muhammad (pbuh) won the hearts not by name calling but his exemplary conduct. People used to throw rubbish at him and all he would do is smile back and prayed for these souls.

I wonder if we are following our Prophet or not. The recent threads were badly needed, but they have done more damage than repair.

May I ask my Muslim scholar brothers to follow our Prophets Sunnah first before preaching it? (that’s a sunnah in itself, Muhammad pbuh never said what he did not do).

Just wondering....

**
[/quote]

You are mixing apples and oranges. You simply cannot use pre-Islamic examples for post-Islamic era. No one can be as Prophet Muhammed (SAW) and no one ever been before. He was gifted, blessed and perfect (may Allah be pleased with him). What you need to do is focus on Noble Quran and Sunnah including Ahadeeth. And that is the bottom line.

What you expect from a believer who is subject of insults, abuse, name-calling, stereotype against those (Noble Quran, Prophet Muhammed (SAW) and Ummah) who are very near and dear to him by the mouths of disbeliever on a Islamic forum.

You said we have Quran, but amazingly your are using pre-Islamic example and asking for that. Allow me to educate you about what Noble Quran says in situations like this?

Noble Quran on Oppression: 42:39-40-41-41!
39. And those who, when an oppressive wrong is done to them, they take revenge.
40. The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof, but whoever forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allâh. Verily, He likes not the Zâlimûn (oppressors, polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.).
41. And indeed whosoever takes revenge after he has suffered wrong, for such there is no way (of blame) against them.
42. The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress men and wrongly rebel in the earth, for such there will be a painful torment.

EXAMPLE: Clinton's speech in Pakistan was oppression. Messages posted by disbelievers constitute oppression.

Now Noble Quran commands us to do this. 16:126! And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allâh), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.)].

Can you explain this to me? Or you still insist to go to Pre-Islamic era/examples.

Now Noble Quran commands us in 5:51 for this!

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers and unjust).

NOTE: HINDUS AND AHMADIS DON'T EVEN COUNT AT ALL BEING PLAIN KUFFAR.

Noble Quran commands regarding behavior in following verses:

avoid becoming involved in matters you know nothing of,
Noble Quran 17:36!And follow not (O man i.e., say not, or do not or witness not, etc.) that of which you have no knowledge (e.g. one's saying: "I have seen," while in fact he has not seen, or "I have heard," while he has not heard). Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those you will be questioned (by Allâh).

*avoid guesswork about one another, *
Noble Quran 49:12! O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting)] . And fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful.

Can you explain after admitting, "we have Quran and Sunnah" why you continue allowed Kuffar to insult, mock and abuse Islam, Noble Quran and our Prophet? I can live with if one does not believe and disagree. In Muslim countries Kuffar are required to pay Jizia, no equal and more participation than Muslims. So does on this forum, they can disagree, dispute express their belief and express that they believe it is right. But what Islamic laws, Verse from Quran, or a Hadeeth even pre-Islamic example gives them right to abuse Islam?

Noble Quran says:
*leave company of those in the act of mocking Allah's law, *
Noble Quran 4:140! And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Qur'ân) that when you hear the Verses of Allâh being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that; (but if you stayed with them) certainly in that case you would be like them. Surely, Allâh will collect the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell,
Noble Quran 6:68! And when you (Muhammad SAW) see those who engage in a false conversation about Our Verses (of the Qur'ân) by mocking at them, stay away from them till they turn to another topic. And if Shaitân (Satan) causes you to forget, then after the remembrance sit not you in the company of those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong­doers, etc.).

SO WHAT ADMIN/MODERATOR OR ANY ONE ELSE DID WHEN IT HAS BEEN AND IS STILL HAPPENING ON GUPSHUP. DON'T YOU THINK THAT THOSE MULIMS WHO DID THAT AND SO DOES THE KUFFAR AND THOSE WHO REMAIND SILENT WAS AN ACCESSARY OF THIS KUFR? CARE TO EXPLAIN?

I have been attacked by Kuffar and some ignorant Muslims that I am deciding who will go to hell and who wouldn't?

*TO KUFFAR AND IGNORANT MUSLIMS HERE IS THE PROOF FROM NOBLE QURAN, FOR WHAT I STATED? *

Noble Quran 8:37! In order that Allâh may distinguish the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) from the good (believers of Islâmic Monotheism and doers of righteous deeds), and put the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) one on another, heap them together and cast them into Hell. Those! it is they who are the losers.

Azkar, I can keep on going. But I want you to think about that. Islam is not against modernization. Islaam is a modern religion. But Islaam is against westernization. Muslims who express western views are committing Kufr. So tell me why we should allow Kuffar to call the shots? At least I stood up against Kufr and ignorance, because I got guts. Do you think one can find his/her way to heaven by practicing pre-Islamic era and considered to be righteous? I don't think so.

Azkar, this is the bottom line for mankind:

Noble Quran 3:85! And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers].

NOTE: THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE HAVE IMMUNITY UNDER VERSE 2:256! "THERE IS NO COMPLUSION IN RELIGION..." BUT THEY WILL GO TO HELL ACORDING TO QURAN.

Now read Noble Quran 5:3!This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion...

So you still insist for pre-Islamic era/examples which have nothing to do with Islam and post Islam which we are required to follow. You cannot prove that Muslims are required to follow any example of pre-Islamic era. I was simply provoked into something. For you some Kuffar's mother or sister may have more importance. But I live breath and love Islam, Noble Quran and Prophet Muhammed (SAW). How dare a Kafir's opinion and opposition can take precedent over Islam and the teachings of Noble Quran? That is exactly Muslims have been doing including Admin on this forum. Are you telling me that NYAhmadi or else's opinion is worth more than the teaching of Islaam and commands of Noble Quran?

Azkar, it should be other way around because Islam has abrogated all religions including Christianity and Judaism. Pagan religions mean nothing. It is Muslims who should be saying that religion X is a shit nothing but (which we don't do) not the other way around.

You think on this and get back with me. I still think that a moderator must be a knowledgeable Muslim and on all decisions Islam must prevail except in court of laws in Islamic countries where Kuffar have privilege to be prosecuted under their own belief, if it has laws to that effect.

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 02, 2000).]

4

As I said, I am not a scholar. I follow the simple Islamic rules which make perfect sense to me.

No one can be Mumahhamd pbuh. True. But we are required to follow his footsteps. Rubbish ka jawab rubbish say nain diya jata. Our prophet never did that.

Which pre-Islamic example you are talking about?? Are you saying Islam said go out and do as they do? Does Islam teach to bad mouth? Does Islam teach you to bring their sisters and Moms in your discussions?? My Islam doesnt say that ...

No one doubts that you have guts. These need to be used properly. I still have high regards for you. But, my brother, there is something called credibility. Lets build that first. As Muhammad pbuh did. There is a need to do that here. People are asking about your credibility. How are they supposed to follow us if we dont practise what we say??

The bottom line is not what you have said. Nobody differes with the statement though. The bottom line is that if you need to expand islam, if you need to show people the right way, if you dont want to enforce the religion, THEN do it first and let others follow you!

Again... pre-islamic .. which part of Muhammaed is pre-Islamic? Are you saying Muhammad pbuh did things differently before bringing Islam out to the world?? Expalin...

Azkar Choudhry

ps: We need people like you. but in your present state of mind. Please do your Islah first and then show us how to do it and then lets move on to spread the holly word.

5

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Bubble Buster:
EXAMPLE: Clinton's speech in Pakistan was oppression. Messages posted by disbelievers constitute oppression.

Just bomb white house!

Can you explain after admitting, "we have Quran and Sunnah" why you continue allowed Kuffar to insult, mock and abuse Islam, Noble Quran and our Prophet? I can live with if one does not believe and disagree. In Muslim countries Kuffar are required to pay Jizia, no equal and more participation than Muslims. So does on this forum, they can disagree, dispute express their belief and express that they believe it is right. But what Islamic laws, Verse from Quran, or a Hadeeth even pre-Islamic example gives them right to abuse Islam?

And then fortunately

NOTE: HINDUS AND AHMADIS DON'T EVEN COUNT AT ALL BEING PLAIN KUFFAR.

Aha.. so it boils down to paying Jazia by credit card to admin. Fortunately, I being Hindu don't qualify for a paid entry also. So I save some money.

[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited April 02, 2000).]

6

[quote]
Originally posted by Azkar Choudhry:
**
As I said, I am not a scholar. I follow the simple Islamic rules which make perfect sense to me.

No one can be Mumahhamd pbuh. True. But we are required to follow his footsteps. Rubbish ka jawab rubbish say nain diya jata. Our prophet never did that.

Which pre-Islamic example you are talking about?? Are you saying Islam said go out and do as they do? Does Islam teach to bad mouth? Does Islam teach you to bring their sisters and Moms in your discussions?? My Islam doesnt say that ...

No one doubts that you have guts. These need to be used properly. I still have high regards for you. But, my brother, there is something called credibility. Lets build that first. As Muhammad pbuh did. There is a need to do that here. People are asking about your credibility. How are they supposed to follow us if we dont practise what we say??

The bottom line is not what you have said. Nobody differes with the statement though. The bottom line is that if you need to expand islam, if you need to show people the right way, if you dont want to enforce the religion, THEN do it first and let others follow you!

Again... pre-islamic .. which part of Muhammaed is pre-Islamic? Are you saying Muhammad pbuh did things differently before bringing Islam out to the world?? Expalin...

Azkar Choudhry

ps: We need people like you. but in your present state of mind. Please do your Islah first and then show us how to do it and then lets move on to spread the holly word. **
[/quote]

First and foremost why you conveniently side stepped from my questions and references from Noble Quran. I was expecting an answer according to that. The point must be noted that no one can override Quran that includes Prophet Muhammed (SAW). I posted the references from Quran and you gave me total off target response. People are asking for my credibility? Who are those people? I have not invited anyone to Islam. I came on to eradicate ignorance. Read the zz's post below yours. When we are dealing with pure stupidity, there is no way one can carry out a healthy and constructive discussion. Read his post and tell me CAN YOU ARGUE WITH IGNORANCE? I think no one can. My response lies in my previous post. According to Noble Quran Muslims are subject of evil, they are permitted to afflict the same. As I said before I was provoked into that. If I have to do it again I'll do the same. My behavior does not require anyone's approval. If you continue to allow parasites like zz interfering in Islamic matters and mocking then you must have some good explanation on judgement day. zz is that stupid that he could not comprehend what I said. The profound ignorance of Kuffar and some Muslims is amazing. So far I have not seen that you have condemned any disbeliever for his/her behavior. You said I need to use my guts properly? And who decides that? You, zz, Roman, NYAhmadi, Abdulmalic, 2pak or else?

You tell me where I am wrong according to Islaam in retaliating against the Kuffar. You seem to have more pain for them instead of your faith. Did you bother to read any of their post? You are repeating constantly that you are no scholar. It is more than excuse, which will not help you, get away from accountability in hereafter. You are required to be knowledgeable about your own faith. You are turning against me a believer and joining Kuffar, which is a pure UN-Islamic act. Or prove that your alliance is permitted. Let me ask you about the credibility of all those who are asking about my credibility? Can you prove that? You have dumb and stupid Muslims and have allied with Kuffar. They have no clue what Islam says. Their rhetoric is what their white master taught or to there parents. Then you have Kuffar who are getting what they want from ignorant Pakistanis and Muslims. So you have blind is leading blind.

Did you condemn those who started it all, mocked us, make fun of our pseudo? Or it is your Hindu or Sikh heritage that is preventing you from upsetting them? Brother, you must watch what you do and say here. Because what you are doing and saying is not an idea for success, it is a formula for failure.

I have nothing further to say. I don't have to prove my credibility to those who have no knowledge and education about Islam. FYI, I have added FIVE Muslims to Muslim populations. I know what dawah is and how to do it. But those who understand different language, they will continue to get what they deserve. I have NO regret about it. It is the ignorance and inferiority complex, which is coming out in form of senseless opposition. Next time when you criticize me, make sure you quote Noble Quran, which you said we have Noble Quran, for what? To keep that on TAAQ? By the way my frame of mind is perfect and much better than the people I am dealing with. My posts speaks for me. A knowledgeable person will take a second to figure that out. Those with no knowledge and low self-esteem will pick and choose out of context stuff and will try to make some crap out of that like zz just did in his post.

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

7

Bubble states, he had multitudes, just picked few from one post:

1)“who is to decide who is a Muslim and who is not?”

Practice what you preach!! Do you?

2)“majority of the so-called scholars come here with giga bytes of stored info and start pushing it out without actually demonstrating it. “

And, you came with copy & post methodology.

3)“build up your own credibility before you start preaching.”

BB's profile:CERTIFIED SEX INSTRUCTOR.
BB's Interest: FEMALES.
And, he proclaims that muslims should live by sunnah; do you BB?

4)"Roman I am not sure that he/she is Muslim? Because many moronic posts came from him/her. Frankly I have found more ignorant Muslims here than anywhere."

Better person is the right ambassador of the faith than a verse spewing & abuse hurling scholar.

5)“Let me educate you Azkar, a Muslim is not required to express his opinion.”

I'll let readers deciper this themselves!

8

Give me the job of moderator of this forum for one week, and everyone will follow the rules. I've lived in Beirut between 4 religions and I know these types of "people". If in one week you don't see a difference, you can remove me as the moderator.

9

CREDIBILITY

An interesting but bizarre thing is mentioned by Azkar in his posts about the credibility of *Bubble buster.

To best of my knowledge BB has not asked the hand (to marry) anyone's mom, daughter or sister. I know BB for many years and I know he is married. I also know that he is not running for any office here. SO WHERE THIS CREDIBILITY CRAP IS COMING FROM?

How ironic that this issue is raised by those for those who themselves have NO combined credibility at all. Those who are NOT Muslims have no credibility for Muslims at all (read Quran to learn), ignorant Muslims have no credibility (Period). I'll prefer BB to be a wise enemy over an ignorant friend. BB, Ghazi and I have debated for long time with/against the best of darkside for years, which we still do. Many of us have not seen each other in our lives. Many of us live a world apart. But religion has united us, since Islaam is a binding force to faith the nations. Oh, by the way some of us don't even speak the same language.

Azkar and Muslims at large:

If you keep on doing what you have been doing?
You will keep on getting what you have been getting?

Than just don’t complaint :)about Kashmir, Bosnia, Kosova, Chechenya, Nigeria, East Timor, Daghistan and other parts of the world. You may be NEXT, it is just matter of time!

Irrefragable
Islaam Is The *ONLY Solution! *****And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers]. Noble Quran 3:85*

[This message has been edited by Irrefragable (edited April 02, 2000).]

10

[quote]
Originally posted by 2PaK:
Give me the job of moderator of this forum for one week, and everyone will follow the rules. I've lived in Beirut between 4 religions and I know these types of "people". If in one week you don't see a difference, you can remove me as the moderator.
[/quote]

Currently they are not looking for bullies?

Irrefragable
Islaam Is The *ONLY Solution! *****And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers]. Noble Quran 3:85*

11

A good thing is that all the posts are timed. Anyone can check I never mentioned anyone's name. People just take the bait.

Dear BB, I have never condemned anyone. All I was asking, very politely, was that people should do what they preach. And that goes to anyone.

From your posts somewhere, you stated your belief that you will go to Heaven. How do you know that? Sahabaye Karam, who were the companions of our Prophet did not know their facte. They used to cry and pray Allah for mughfarat and never knew what thier fate is going to be. Are you above those pilllars?? How can you say that you will go to heavens?

My dear friend, the trees which bow fruit, bend down. All our history shows that great Muslism were very humble and pious. What are you after? Danday kay zoor par to Islam nain phaila??

And one more time, I ask you, revise the way you are spreading the holly word. It is one thing to debate, its other to win hearts. And Islam, my friend, has always spread by winning hearts, not by enforcing it.

Azkar Choudhry

ps: And no, I wont condemn anyone. I dont know when Allah will give anyone of these people hadaya and they become true believers. And who am I to condemn? Allah wont allow us to condemn any one.

And I did not step from your questions. I started this thread. This is my debate. You have to answer me first before expect an answer from me.

'My behavior does not require anyone's approval'

Oh yeah?? I keep on wondering ...

You tell me where I am wrong according to Islaam in retaliating against the Kuffar. Your conduct, my friend. You use rubish against rubish. Thats not what Islam teaches.

And let me tell you one thing. This place, where you cannot show your physical skills and engage in body Jihad, language is your best weapon. And it does not take lots of common sense, that sweet language will win hearts.

--

12

Dear Azkar:

Your point is noted, let us put a stop to this and begin doing what we both are required to do? I look forward to work with you for our common cause and common faith of Islaam and Ummah. let us have no hard feeling against each other.

Wasalaam
BB

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

13

Dear Azkar:

Faith and Works…SALVATION IN ISLAAM

One of the basic arguments raised by non-Muslims, especially Christians, against Islaam concerns the concept of salvation. They say that in Christianity, one is saved by faith, whereas in Islaam one must earn their salvation through good deeds. Unfortunately, many Muslims fall into the trap of defending the position imposed on them by these non-Muslims. This then provides the Christians with a basis for their entire Jesus-Father-Crucifixion-Salvation framework. They then go on to argue that salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned. But if the true Islaamic concept is made clear, the Christian has no basis to attack Islaam.
Many times, Muslims fail to realize that the Islaamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith. In the dozens of times Allah (SWT) talks in the Quran about salvation, he always states, "Those who believe and do good deeds." Belief is always mentioned before deeds or works. When one converts to Islaam, one does not do it by doing some good work but rather through realizing and believing that there is but one God and Muhammed (SAW) is his last messenger. Non-Muslims may perform good works as well, but what sets them apart from Muslims is their lack of IMAAN, or belief. The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person's imaan or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless.
One of the more popular Hadiths of the Prophet (SAW) states, "All actions are based upon intentions," implying that the purpose, intent, or imaan behind your action is what you get rewarded for; the actual action is really a consequence of the belief.
Another Hadith states, "A man came to the Prophet (SAW) and asked, 'When will the day of judgment come?' The Prophet (SAW) replied, 'What have you prepared for the judgment day that you are so concerned for it?' He replied, 'I do not have any good deeds in my account, but I do have one thing: I love Allah and His Messenger (SAW).' The Prophet (SAW) then said, 'In that case, do not worry; you will be with those whom you love.'" (Agreed Upon). This Hadith also confirms the Islamic position of placing aqeedah and belief before actions. For example, Allah (SWT) says in various parts of the Quran, "The believers you will find praying..." He does not say the people who are praying are believers. It is the belief that brings about the action, but the converse is not always true. Another Hadith of the Prophet (SAW) states, "Unless one loves Allah and Allah's Messenger more than one's own self his imaan is not complete."

Please note that you mentioned Sahaba in your post. You also made a reference of Hazrat Ummer Ibne Khattab (ra) who use to cry in his prayers. That is/was because of his responsibilites as an AMEER-UL_MOMINEEN. Hazrat Ummer (ra) and NINE other are among ** Al-asharatu mubashshirun** the ten people that were given the glad tiddings of assurance of entering Paradise. They were Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Abdur Rahman ibn Awf, Abu Ubaydah ibn al-Jarrah, Talhah ibn Ubaydullah, az-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam, Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas, Sa'id ibn Zayd (ra).

I hope that I cleared the misconception. In my case I have more reasons in addition to this. Beside that I also stated that all believers will go to heaven.

Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 02, 2000).]