Re: I just don't get it....
Nope. The drones are a violation of our sovereignty. Big difference.
Re: I just don't get it....
Not in this case. This is the first time the PAF has taken to the skies to protect Pakistan. We didn't even do this when Army troops were killed by an American helicopter.
LOL are you serious? PAF was patrolling the skies and FC supposedly fired warning shots at intruding helicopters. I think it is all a topi drama, but what is most damaging is that the armed forces are on board with the drone program (after all, drones do fly from pakistani airbases) so it is not an issue of sovereignty anymore, but the army is stoking that dangerous fire that they don't know when they do that can consume them just like Pakistan go burnt by the jihadis that were given free reign to do what they pleased in the past.
Re: I just don't get it....
Nope PAF was not in the sky for that incident. While I do agree with the rest. Our proxies must be kept under control if they aim to use them. I for one would be much happier for strategic depth as a policy was scrapped.
Re: I just don't get it....
As long as it's not happening in Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi we are safe and we don't care how many people are dying in Wazirastan.
True about lahore / isb, but karachi has had its share of operations in the past where government was quiet elsewhere on the jihadi front when they were blowing up shias etc.
Re: I just don't get it....
Nope PAF was not in the sky for that incident. While I do agree with the rest. Our proxies must be kept under control if they aim to use them. I for one would be much happier for strategic depth as a policy was scrapped.
Taliban ideology is not beneficial to Pakistan, so it is time we find a replacement and dump them as soon as possible for our own long term sake. I wouldn't be against the strategic depth policy (relevant for the neck of Pakistan aka punjab and nwfp region) only if it is implemented correctly. But, we even screwed up kashmir so we would have a fat chance implementing anything.
And I am pretty positive that PAF did commence CAPs after the angoor adda incident in 2008.
Re: I just don't get it....
Nope. The drones are a violation of our sovereignty. Big difference.
how? you said the terrorists are your proxies. the drones happen because of the terrorists. so drones are the price you pay for not removing the terrorists yourself!
Re: I just don't get it....
After that maybe. I am not sure. But this is the first time they have announced PAF in the sky to take out drones. Strategic depth makes no sense if we can't fight a war longer than 10 days.
Re: I just don't get it....
hasn't Pakistan dug itself into a deep enough hole already? why more strategic depth!
Re: I just don't get it....
Kyani and government by now know that it is very difficult to get any regret or appology from Sam. Here in America, local news paper says that drones targetted millitants and 40 millitants not innocent civillians were killed. Looks like army and ISI is playing double cross here. I don't know why Sam appologise on killing of so called "terrorists."
Well Pakistan army and ISI tried to use the Davis issue to portray as if the relations between ISI and CIA have gone rock bottom and new terms are being discussed between the two agencies, and that no drones would be carried out without Pakistani information! Davis released and Army received a slap on their face by their masters in the shape of the drone attack, Pak army should stop doing this topi drama and celebrate the 'killing of terrorists'. Americans knows about our army's strength, they will stop their baksheesh if they do any "choon chraan". Pakistan should concentrate on preparation for the next target and leave the americans carrying on the drone attacks.
I personally think that ISI should also be disbanded as it has failed to protect us, we can always properly employ CIA and Blackwater to provide us with intelligence.
Re: I just don't get it....
See that is the beauty of people who do not read history.
Everybody says Pakistan was done for in 1997.
Then in 1999.
Then in 2001.
Then again in 2007 when Musharraf left.
Now we are in it again.
We survive always.
Re: I just don't get it....
Nope. The drones are a violation of our sovereignty. Big difference.
The only problem is that the recent drone attack was not the first, we are facing them since the last 7 years! They are flying from our own bases, and the nato containers are still passing through our country. If the army considered that a violation of our sovereignty they would have done something after the first attack. Its a matter of days when everything will be normal and then the attacks will begin.
Re: I just don't get it....
After that maybe. I am not sure. But this is the first time they have announced PAF in the sky to take out drones. Strategic depth makes no sense if we can't fight a war longer than 10 days.
I would love it along with most pakistanis if our army could regain their sovereignty over their own land but i know its not possible to expect the same from the sold outs around us, thats the reason why they keep on getting extensions as well.
Re: I just don't get it....
Alhamdulillah the PAF is ready for drones...and the American drones have been hovering over NWA yesterday too. :)
Re: I just don’t get it…
http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/20-Mar-2011/US-drones-keep-flying-over-NWA
**
US drones keep flying over NWA**
Published: March 20, 2011
ISLAMABAD (INP) - Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was put on high alert on Saturday and was conducting strict vigilance of the country’s airspace but about a dozen US drones continued hovering over North Waziristan Agency (NWA) on Saturday searching their targets.
PAF intensified air patrols over the country’s northwestern tribal areas after a US drone attack in NWA killed 40 innocent tribesmen. PAF has also cancelled the holidays of its essential personnel to keep vigil on the country’s airspace. A PAF spokesperson declined to confirm or deny the report.
Sources in NWA told INP that about eight to 12 US drones were continuously hovering over NWA Saturday creating scare and situation of uncertainty among the locals. “The US drones were flying very low in the area,” the locals complained, adding that Pakistani leaders were just condemning the drone attacks which was not sufficient.
Re: I just don't get it....
....we let Davis go.
Then we demand an apology on the Drone attack that killed 45 people.
I think it is pretty simple. There was no way that we could have kept Davis. The government, both federal and Punjab, was trying to find a way out. Then Saudi interference made it happen.
But from that episode ISI learned of covert activities of CIA, which it was not aware of. Hence it is using the latest drone attack as an excuse to give the US the message that Pak army is now unwilling to allow CIA unhindered privileges in Pak.
In other words...
Pak army was annoyed by this Raymond character's activities, but it had no choice but to let him go. However this episode has made the army make Americans realize that rules of game have to be changed now. And the public condemnation by the army chief himself is a way to send the message.
Re: I just don't get it....
*Here in America, local news paper says that drones targetted millitants and 40 millitants not innocent civillians were killed. Looks like army and ISI is playing double cross here. *
Your trusting the "local newspapers" more than Pak army chief's statement is amazing to me.
I for one believe Kyani more than any American LOCAL newspaper.
Re: I just don't get it....
Only ABCD's believe the local ABC affiliates....
Re: I just don't get it....
It is being increasingly clear that the army could not extract any concessions from the US after all the Davis drama. Obviously the generals were not pleased at being slighted and no wonder we are seeing more outrage and another public confrontation. I think Americans will largely remain unfazed, though repeated confrontations will likely reaffirm the conviction of many American policy makers that Pakistan is more of a foe than an ally and need to be dealt with accordingly.
In any case Americans have been urging Pakistan all along to go after the terrorists who have taken sanctuary in North Waziristan but to little avail. If only the army itself could purge the “good” taliban from the NW, who have been attacking US and NATO personnel for so long, there would be no need for these drones and no breaches of “national sovereignty.”
Re: I just don’t get it…
In fact, there was a very insightful opinion piece by the very sharp Cyril Almedia, even before this yet another confrontation.
“A Pyrrhic victory”
SO who lied? They all did. The federal government knew whether Davis had immunity or not, but it kept quiet. The Punjab government and police knew the two ‘innocents’ killed were at least petty thieves and probably more, but Punjab hawked a different line.
The media had in its possession eyewitness accounts that appeared to corroborate Davis’s defence](http://www.dawn.com/2011/03/17/davis-buys-his-flight-to-freedom.html), but quietly shelved the video testimonies. An orgy of self-righteous indignation is a made-for-television spectacle and is extremely profitable. The Americans knew ‘our diplomat’ wasn’t a diplomat — immunity being a separate question — but that was awkward, so they pretended otherwise. The American media was in on the secret, but dissembled.
And then there are ‘the boys’, our wannabe world dominators who would have us believe they didn’t know about the activities of a handful of foreign spies in the country’s second-largest city. Pakistan isn’t exactly a tourist Mecca. White men stand out.
You can easily figure out what the rest wanted. The media: ratings. The politicians: popularity, or avoiding further unpopularity. The Americans: their guy back, and avoiding a precedent that could be used against them in other trouble spots. The American media: future access.
But what did ‘the boys’ want?
Through carefully planted leaks, we are told the ISI wanted the Americans to end their ‘secret activities’. No going behind our backs and doing stuff without informing us, the ISI has apparently told the Americans.
Wondering how it was possible for Americans to be conducting espionage in Lahore? Oh, it was Hussain Haqqani and those America-loving PPP guys who sold out the country for a few hundred visas.
Still wondering how it was possible for Americans with visas to be conducting espionage in Lahore? As in, so someone gave them a visa, does that mean the ISI allows every American with a visa to roam around and do what they like?
Never mind that, we are told, the important thing is we’ve got promises and concessions from the Americans.
And the concessions we’ve had to make? Y’know, like the ones which allowed ‘dozens’ or even ‘hundreds’ of Americans to run around the country in the first place?
Never mind, it’s all been sorted. Trust us.
The public has no choice in the matter. Whether we trust the ISI and its masters, army generals, or not, the one big black box in the country remains a big black box.
What goes in, what comes out, how are things processed inside — the public knows nothing.
At least with the media and the politicians you can figure out stuff. Stupid American kills two boys in broad daylight in Lahore.
A third victim is run over by a rescue team. Media: yay, ratings! Politicians: oh, must avoid being on the wrong side of the public. Hang him!
But with the establishment? You’re left clutching at straws, triangulating between ever-shifting nodes.
Frankly, if it were just games between states, it wouldn’t matter that much. Locked in a mutually suspicious and distrustful relationship, they will constantly seek to extract their pounds of flesh and bend the other to their will. Boys will be boys.
The problem: it isn’t just a game between states.
Raymond Davis may have given the ISI an opportunity to push back against the CIA/US and our spies may well have got their way — for now.
But if 10 years into an uneasy relationship, the boys over here still see fit to foment public unrest or to churn the political waters over every little disagreement with the US, at what point does the mess here become totally unmanageable?
Raymond Davis is gone. Whatever the PTI or JI are hoping for, the air has been let out of that episode. It won’t count for much in terms of political mileage going forward.
But for six weeks this country was held hostage by a trigger-happy US contractor who probably wouldn’t be able to get through the front door at Langley without special security clearance.
Surely, there ought to be better ways for the establishment to convey its unhappiness to the Americans?
Indignant pundits on TV are warning that terrorism and extremism may increase now that Davis has been set free. If they are right, it’s only because Davis was made into an issue of national honour. And you don’t have to look very far to find who encouraged that characterisation in the first place.
Remember the Kerry-Lugar fiasco? One little statement from GHQ and on cue the political class, sections of the media and the public at large erupted.
What did that gain us? Not one term was changed, not one word. If it was all about assurances, surely the establishment could have used other channels to demand those. And if those assurances were violated, the ante could have been upped later.
But it’s the unthinking recourse to public pressure that seems to characterise the establishment’s responses. And they always appear to be responses, not part of some broader strategy.
In the Davis affair, the central concern for the Americans wasn’t the response of the Pakistani public, it was to get their guy back.
So once we got their guy, we had bargaining power. Use it, quietly and efficiently.
And for those who think that killings in broad daylight in Lahore couldn’t be dealt with ‘quietly’, then think about all the attacks against military installations and security agencies in the past few years What visa details or interrogation tapes or jail-cell conditions has the public learned of in any of those attacks?
Raymond Davis is gone. But the bitterness and hate and propaganda the episode spawned will linger on.
Kerry-Lugar, drone strikes, Aafia Siddiqi, Raymond Davis — why can’t the establishment here fight its battles with the US without making this place a little more dangerous, a little less stable each time?
Re: I just don't get it....
to me it (the PAF alert) looks a stupid attempt of face saving after they let davis go... the latest dron was a celibration of USA on getting their man released...
even if they bring down a couple drones, it will not be a huge cost for getting favis freed and getting away with all the espionage stuff leaking to media and all the humilation which could have come with that for the USA. after bringing a couple of drons down (and that is IF they did, and dont see any reason to believe that they will really do it) they will let them do their job again and keep killing people.