Do we call them pillars of imaan?
I think the term 'pillars' is used in conjuction with islam... and refers to mandatory (Shahadat, Salat, Sayam, Hajj, Zakat). I never heard anyone referring to 'pillars of imaan'. I maybe wrong.
I am quite sure that it is pillars of Imaan and u might call them criteria as well.
You can understand it as the basis of building of Islam. The structures are the 5 pillars and then u need faraidh and sunnah and taqwah to make the building a happier place to live.
I think the grey areas are due to lack of our understanding. Like, I have heard that a woman needs to walk behind his husband and it doesn't come to my mind as to if it's true and if yes then what's the reason behind it.
a woman needs to walk behind his husband<<
Really? Haven’t heard of that one.
Kher… I am sure there are levels of severity. On some matters the punishment is greater than others. Walking behind or forward…well.. ummm… janay do, yaar!
Alright..I'll try to sift through by individual examples as well.
First, regarding Quran and Sunnah...we all know that Quran has the complete code of life in it. Sunnah is the practical tafseer of the Quran.
Regarding Hijab....the basic guidelines have been defined in the Quran. Without referring to any ahadees or scholars, and just looking at the Quranic quotes, Quran tells women to shield their bodies to the highest levels of modesty. And in a couple of instances, even physical characteristics are defined, where Allah SWT tells women to cover their chests and not to show themselves in a way that would be enticing. Now thats the definition that we have to believe in. Nothing else. I dont disagree with the point of scholars being able to come up with their own interpretations of modesty. And those interpretations, we dont neccessarily have to agree with. But to say that 'unlike what Quran says, Im not going to be modest about it and i will wear a bikini, say what you want' is a denial of the basic Quranic belief, which in my mind takes u off course.
Regarding 4 marriages, Quran has an adequate explanation of the circumstances under which one is allowed to marry 4 times. Now the scholars could have whatever explanation they wish to come up with regarding polygamy. But for one to deny that marrying 4 women is 'wrong', is again, an absolute denial of faith. Marrying 4 women is allowed in Islam under the right circumstances. Now if some hormone driven men choose to misuse this law and use it even under 'wrong' circumstances, then in my mind they themselves are committing a sin. But for one to say that marrying 4 times shouldnt be allowed, period, is a negation of what Allah SWT has already said in the Quran.
Regarding divorce, you agree that Quran has very specific and clear guidelines regarding this. Now if a person chooses to use a scholars interpretation rather than the clear cut guidelines laid out in the Quran, hes at fault. Scholars are only needed for spiritual guidance, to make an attempt to keep the couple together, and use divorce only as a last resort. Otherwise, Quran has not left any stone unturned regarding divorce. So again, its the denial of those basic divorce laws already outlined by the Quran that make a person a disbeliever.
Regarding the ayat i mentioned, I said it as a prefix. The word 'Amanto" means, to come into faith regarding something. This word is used numerous times in the Quran, and is not limited to a certain set, and hence, should not be used as a barometer for faith in only certain issues. It covers a much wider field.
Surah Baqarah has many instances of such ayaat.
2: 177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing
[This message has been edited by Akif (edited February 26, 2001).]
I am going a bit off-topic (or completely off-topic, whatever)... but I am absolutely amazed at the depth of the meaning in this ayat...
2: 177. It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets] and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and gives the Zakât, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.) in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are AlMuttaqûn
If we read through the arabic of this ayat, and just sit there and ponder over the beauty and the depth therein, its amazing. This is a prime example of the fact that Quran is the word of Allah. Some may take it in a simple and superificial meaning, but for those who think, it has amazing depth of meanings and messages, and indeed a great warning for all of us.
One of the points we all are missing here is that sometimes the person not believing in a certain aspect of any religion do so because to him/her its not part of the faith in the first place!
Why he believes that certain aspect (Hijab, divorce system or something else for that matter) is not part of his faith (Islam) is his own interpretation of his own faith.
Lets take an example of growing beard for men-leaving the poor non-hijabi women out for a while
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I am more than sure that you can find certain group of Muslims that will preach & believe that whoever says that growing beard is not mandatory is out of the circle of Islam … yet I am sure there will be another group of my brothers who will whole heartedly believe that growing beard is a personal preference and not mandatory. Now, don’t we have a dilemma here that the two groups do claim to believe in same Islam, yet they have different interpretations??? Which one would you consider inside the circle of Islam and which outside?
Humanity First! Though I give you the right to disagree …
Secondly I want to know ... when & to whom did Hazrat Muhammad (saw) appointed the guardian of the gate of Islam? To let certain believers in and the others out?? Please let the claimant come forward and show me his proof!!
Humanity First! Though I give you the right to disagree ...
>>Why he believes that certain aspect (Hijab, divorce system or something else for that matter) is not part of his faith (Islam) is his own interpretation of his own faith.
Unless the person is very knowledgeable about islam, quran and sunnah, it is generally ill-advised to come up with “your own” interpretations. Most people follow any of the most learned imams of Islamic knowledge.
The issue of beard has been discussed a number of times. And it brings up back to the original argument I presented, which is that other than “mission critical” aspects of imaan (faith) and faraidh (mandatory) aspects of Islam, for daily life matters of sharia, if a person disagrees due to a difference of opinion/interpretation, we can’t judge them to be out of Islam. Thats my take on this. I may be wrong.
Difference in opinion!!
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Let there be no compulsion in religion Truth stands out clear from Error!! (2:256)
I am not saying that Imam’s or religious leaders shouldn’t have any input in one’s belief but that their interpretation of Quran & Islam should not be considered absolute!! After all they are humans and they make mistakes …
Pristine Bhai, you said it yourself “Thats my take on this” so do you let others to have a different take on this? That will be their own interpretation?
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And if they can have their own interpretation on men growing beard, then why not on Women wearing Hijab or the divorce system?
Jee bhai that’s my take on this!!!
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Humanity First! Though I give you the right to disagree …
Ofcourse. Muslims routinely disagree on many things. Beard, hijab, divorce system, eating meat by chritians, there are just so many examples…
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What I don’t agree with is the approach that “Gee Pristine, I don’t like to grow a beard, it doesn’t look good on me, so I think it is not required by Islam, anyway.” Or. “Gee Pristine, my wife feels her hair-style will get effected if she takes a hijab, so I think hijab is not required by Islam anyway”.
I mean, this is convenience, not islam. Why bring islamic rulings in question to suit your convenience? Haan, if you have a valid daleel or evidence supporting your point, then sure, come right in and present the evidence and we can discuss and then go our each way, more knowledgable. Regardless of whether we agree or not. That is the essence of a good debate.
You can do whatever you want, but atleast have the decency to say that I am not doing it bcz I don’t feel like. Don’t say Islam doesn’t say so. Coming up with own interpretations to suit your convenience is not the best course of living your lives.
But what are you disagreeing with me here?
Agreed!!!
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But we shouldn’t point fingers at them and call them Non-Muslims. That will make them go more astray… and to me those who called them non-Mulisms are responsible!
The approach should be to reason with them and help them understand … but and if they still persist then it’s their faith!! Even then I don’t have the right to consider them out of the circle of Islam!!!
Wasn’t that the initial question?? Sorry if I rambled too much
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[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited February 27, 2001).]
Expanding this discussion into sunnat and hadees is a mistake.
Whatever is in the Quran is undeniable for muslims, very simply put. As for issues not mentioned in the Quran, you could get an opinion from a goat for all I care. But whats contained in the Quran is very clear cut, and does not have any room for alteration. Refusal to believe whats in the Quran is a refusal of faith. And there are no two ways of believing whats written in the Quran.
Dont mix issues related to 'fiqah' with whats in the Quran.
Actually, sunnah is just an explanation of Quran. So reading Quran, different people can come up with different meanings of the same ayat, and consequently form different opinions. Lets see...
Ok, an example... here is the text from Quran, only English translation, on the topic of divorce (Read 227 to 242 if you want the full context). Tell me what it means to you...
2:230. And if he has divorced her (the third time), then she is not lawful unto him thereafter until she has married another husband. Then, if the other husband divorces her, it is no sin on both of them that they reunite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allâh. These are the limits of Allâh, which He makes plain for the people who have knowledge.
Ok, now tell me, based on the text of Quran, if she marries the next husband for the sole reason of getting a divorce and going back to the first... is it prohibited in Quran?
No Pristine, its not prohibited.
And its in order to avoid such instances that the Quran institutes a 3 tier divorce system, so you have 3 chances before finalizing a divorce....meaning you have plenty of time before you take such a huge step.....and after a genuine divorce, one wouldnt figure to return to the same marriage.
But anyway...i think everyone kinda lost the train of thought here.
Interpretations are a dime a dozen. But the core issue is the same....basic beliefs. The right to marry someone just to get a divorce and go back to ur first husband exists. There is no denying that. Now if someone misuses that right, thats their own virtue. But based on that misuse, its not right to say that this law is wrong, or unethical. The law is right. There is no doubt about that. Its the users of that law who misuse it that are wrong.
Akif bhai…
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- Can you explain 3 tier divorce system? Can you say “divorce” thrice in one sitting, and talaq will be final?
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- You won’t be able to find any muslim aalim, worth his salt who will sanction that a woman marrying a man with a pre-determined agreement that the next husband will divorce her so she can re-marry her first husband is allowed in Islam.
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And thats a fact. Because that is how the Prophet (SAWW) taught us. Now this is not in Quran.
To cut a long story short, Quran is guidance for mankind till the Day of Judgement. To understand this guidance one must study it along with the sunnah of the Prophet (SAWW) to make out the correct meaning, or the chances are you can make a very big mistake. And while you are doing that chances are still that u can make a mistake. So if someone makes a mistake in doing so, he/she is not out of Islam for that, now will they?
Someone quoted this ayat to me and said, 'See, Quran says alcohol is good for you: (16:67) And from the fruits of date-palms and grapes, you derive strong drink and a goodly provision. Verily, therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom.’
Now, thats words of Quran. No dispute about them. No dispute even in the meaning (give or take a few). Can you challenge it? Can Allah’s word be wrong?
Lets revise what the Quran says regarding divorce, and see if we need any interpretations.
I am not implying that translators like Yousuf, or Pickthall or anyone else are wrong. But its true that more often than not, these translators have failed to verbalize the grammar that is so intricate in arabic. Because of loss of that valuable grammar, meanings can be mistaken. I will try to translate certain verses, stressing the grammar where needed.
In surah al-baqara, Allah SWT says.
2:226. For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting period for four months is ordained; if then they return, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
This ayat clearly states that after the first divorce (oath of abstention), a 4 month waiting period is mandatory. 3 consecutive talaaqs are un-islamic, and its a misuse of Islamic laws that results from people resorting to 'interpretations' rather than the simple word of Quran.
2:228 And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
2:229 These are two divorces
These translations dont include the entire ayaahs, but this is what they tell. The first divorce is followed by a mandatory 4 month waiting period. After the 4 month period expires, if the couple has not reconciled during those 4 months, the second divorce will automatically go into effect.
2:230 So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and **IF He has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah.**
The arabic version of this ayah clearly indicates that the couple can get married only after the women remarries, and only IF her second husband divorces her. This method is given as a condition, NOT an option:) She canNOT remarry solely for the purpose of gaining a talaq and reverting to her first husband. Its the incorrect interpretations of people that lead them to this conclusion. And as far as interpretations are concerned, like I said before, people can say whatever they wish....those interpretations in my mind dont oust someone from Islam. Its the denial of whats written in the Quran that does it.
Someone quoted this ayat to me and said, 'See, Quran says alcohol is good for you: (16:67) And from the fruits of date-palms and grapes, you derive strong drink and a goodly provision. Verily, therein is indeed a sign for people who have wisdom<<<<
Sex is allowed in Islam as well. There are good provisions in it. You get married, have kids, and keep the generation going.
Sure sex is good...now does that mean rape is ok too? since rape involves sex as well, and well, sex is allowed in Islam.
There are many things that have good provisions. Its their use/misuse which renders them good or bad. And alcohol has great use, as mentioned in the Quran. But there is a greater tendency to succumb to its addictiveness, which is why Allah SWT has mentioned in other instances that we should stay away from it.
People will pick and choose such ayaat merely to throw one off track. Otherwise we all know what the facts are:)