This is not a religious thread. I don’t understand why people (Muslims) have a hard time understanding that Islam is not just a religion, it is the way of living your life. Our deeds (whatever we do everyday) are to be done according to Islam, that’s another thing we don’t do that but anyway. Our lives (whatever we do) are not seperated from Islam and Islam does come in to play a very important role in our everyday life. Here’s the exact concerm:
I am not picking on anyone, but taking a bath with your wife/husband or spicing up your love life is one thing (he/she is your husband/wife and you can engage in almost any sexual activity with them except some) but how can you even think about having sex outside of your marriage or switching partners with another couple to find out what it feels like etc. etc. etc. If someone objects and tries to share with you what is not allowed/encouraged in Islam, instead of appreciating or saying thanks for guiding them, people jump at him/her and tell him/her to take his/her opinions elsewhere because they were not asking from the religious point of view.
Call me a jahil, narrow minded, molvi, or whatever and I know I am not a very good person, but I just don’t get how that’s possible How can one take the religion out of any certain act completely :-s It pisses me off.
Hmm when I started finding out more about Islam, I was amazed that Islam is a part of every action. From going into the bathroom and reading dua before hand, to going outside and keeping your gaze low, to talking to people in a certain way, to saying salam to those people sitting down when you're walking into a room. But that's what makes Islam so appealing, that there are guidelines for evetything. of course there are some who see them as constraints and are content to pick and choose to their fancy
There are so many things not allowed in Islamic way of life, but they are hardcore realities of our society.
Take for example; issue of child molestation. Any sane person can tell you it is not allowed in islam, but it is a reality and present among our very own society. Sometime practising muslims are involved in this heinous crime.
Now if some person comes and say that; '** Look brother, this thing is against islamic teaching and practice, so you should not contaminate your mind by discussing this dirty issue'**.
Where in Islam does it say that we cannot discuss child molestation if it is a problem in our society? Burying girls alive was a practice back then and Islam didnt shut its eyes and ears against it but stopped it. For that matter, where in Islam are we forbidden to talk about things that are wrong in our society, for example extramarital affairs or whatever.
The problem is not with islam, it is with ourselves. When we think that if someone is discussing some taboo, they are most pobably practising it themselves or in someway or another, involed.
You cant close your eyes and be complacent. It is against the spirit of Islam.
People don't like to be preached at, as soon as you bring religion into the works, mullahs come out of the wallpaper and cast first stones randomly. Which is annoying. And you get into blurry ground with religion too, which hadiths and according to which school of thought, etc.
Personal opinions are much easier to debate, you are not likely to insult someones god. Neither are you recquired to back up something your mum told you 20 odd yrs back with a hadiths, which may infact not even exist.
The point also stands that people do not base their actions on religion alone, other factors such as culture, home environment, upbringing also play a big role. Not to mention gender, time context. And thus you cannot simply say "tell me what your religion says" becasue reality dictates that there are very few individuals in which religion is the only factor in reguards to decision making.
Shikko laal, go fikar about the genoside in sudan, peoples threads are small fry in the grander amalgamation of sheer rubbish that needs to be pondered over.
^^ I would if I could but for time being, allow me to ponder over the issue I’ve started a discussion about.
The topic is going a little bit off direction. I understand where Code Red & Sarah are coming from. Regarding that, this is what I think. Now this is my personal opinion, I am not saying that it’s a provan fact.
Talking about Indian Muslims or Pakistani Muslims, I think since a lot of our great great grandparents were hindus who then converted to Islam, hindu norms and practices still exist among Muslims (Asian) even though we are Muslims. That includes what you all just said about burrying daughters alive, Child Molestations, CR & Sarah, I agree, we should discuss problems that exist in our society. If we don’t discuss them and try to prevent those practices, they’ll never go away. Culture should not prevent us from discussing any issues, be it child molestation or fathers/mothers teaching their sons/daughters about their bodies and how to keep it clean Islamically etc. I am going off topic again
What I am saying is this: The two examples that I gave (bathing with your wife/husband and having sex outside of marriage), you do have to take a look at those from Islamic prospective. Yes you can take shower with your wife/husband and Islam doesn’t forbid that but at the same time you can NOT have sex outside of marriage. NO YOU CAN’T EVEN DISCUSS IT BY FACTS BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL OPINION because your personal opinions SHOULD be thought keeping Islam in mind. If Islam tells you NOT TO have sex with anyone but your spouse, why would you even wanna think about it? Ok fine one doesn’t know about it, then when someone tries to kindly tell them that it’s wrong, people tell him/her to take his opinion elsewhere? Why? And no, If you act like decent human beings, you willl have respect for other person’s religion and you’ll discuss the issue like educated humans, not fight like animals and try to shove religion down someone’s throat. Yes, shoving religion down someone’s throat is also wrong.
Shikra, I beleive that as a Muslim it's your duty to let the party know that whatever they are doing are wrong, PROVIDED that you have a frank enough relationship to do that. Once should be enough, after that its between them and God.
As for those who refuse to acknowledge Islam as a way of life, they don't deserve any advice.
Ms Shikra, you are absolutely right about breaking marriage vows, switching partners etc. Once a couple is married, they should absolultely never be with another. And I think that the vast majority of people are like this. Not many cheat and those who do I think eventually end up paying the price - divorce, heartbreak etc.
On the other hand, I wouldnt worry too much about "just looking". Men like to look at a pretty girl and there really isnt harm in that. Keeps them healthy so to speak. Acting on it is one thing but there isnt harm in looking! I think its more harmful when a man runs away and hides if he sees a pretty woman! Like Oh My Gosh, I may have a dirty thought so I better hide!! A good man is one who honors and respects his wife and if he secretly takes a little look at a beauty every now and then, no harm done.
There was talk in this thread that I found very interesting so I hope you dont mind if i go off-topic a bit. In Pak, there is not discussion of forbidden things and at last I am starting to understand a very disturbing situation. I know a couple who live with his grandfather and take care of him. Grandfather has a driver/servant who attends to his every need. This driver is a homosexual pedophile. So this couple has lost many of their own servants because mr. pervert molests them. To make matters worse, the couple has a 5 year old boy, almost ripe enough for mr. pervert. They do not talk about the pervert, they dont seem to worry about it, and they are convinced that he would not touch their boy. Grandpa acts completely oblivious to the entire matter as he does not want to lose a servant who is so very attentive to him. So it seems like due to this cultural taboo of discussing forbidden things, they will almost surely have to face one day the molestation of their boy. Until I read this thread, I was totally baffled as to why these people never talked about it.
I dont really know where exactly are u pointing at, but if its got anything to do with people giving armughal shyt after he replied in sweetpie's thread.... let me tell u, that after reading his reply, It was very hard for me to resist replying and being very rude to him, which i did, cos I wanted to break his chin with a peshawari chappal... there is a way to tell/advise/guide or present ur point of view.... I dont care what pearls of wisdom he had in there, the way he did it made me feel like cutting his nuts off and feed em to the goats. No ones denying the wrong in extra marital affairs... people are having a discussion, just come tell us what u think about it. dont point fingers at people. and has he been appointed the chief justice of the judging department by Allah??? We ALL know its wrong.... she was merely asking why do people cheat? what makes them cheat? whats the thought process? and how do they justify such acts? and no one was asked what Islam says about it... cos i,m sure she knows that already... so dont just come and point fingers just for the sake of putting others down.. we know ur a good muslim,, good for u,,, dont give us crap.
Skhan Right, one should show the right path only a few times and when he/she sees the other person getting irritated, it should be let go.
mamaof3 I am a MR. Thanks for your input and a shocking story you have there.
kaka It wasn’t directed at Armughal or your reply, I was talking in general. It happens in real life too. I think you are talking about sweetpie’s thread. As far as that’s concerned, I replied in that thread too. You are right and I agree with you that there’s a certain way you approach these things, not just say it full of sarcasm. But like I said before, it wasn’t directed to sweetpie’s thread or armughal’s reply. But since we are on that topic, I gave her answers to her questions but I would like to say this as well: If she anyone knows what’s forbidden in Islam, why would you even want to ask others “how would you go about that”? Yes ofcourse you can discuss issues if they arise but that particular question in my opinion was wrong, although I answered. I didn’t bash sweetpie for that (keeping in mind it’s her life, she knows what’s right and what’s wrong). So yeah, what Armughal said was right but he just used the wrong approach. I agree.
^ True. But come on yaar, it's obvious that I am talking about Muslims. That includes Muslims asking questions, Muslims answering questions to other Muslims etc. Ofcourse I know Islamic laws don't apply to non-Muslims. And Islam is not a complicated religion at all, it's just that some idiots that have made it very complicated because of their norms, ego, and ignorance by coming up with their own laws and defending it by using the shield of Islam.
I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing certain taboo topics. Too much is swept under the rug, and hence, ignored in Pakistani and south-eastern culture such as child molestation, rape, drug abuse, etc. Talking about such issues can only help cause too many people are afraid to speak out and ask questions, which actually results in more ignorance about these issues. Ignoring it and pretending it does not exist will not make it go away.
When it comes to extra-marital affairs, I would think people would just have some common sense on this issue. Pretty much everybody knows (both Muslim and non-Muslim) that it is wrong. Some don't and a discussion arises.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hiccup: *
Not everyone is a muslim shikko. Some poeple also have common sense and morals. Not everyone travels with blind faith.
[/QUOTE]
as Muslims we have a responsibility to tell non-Muslims about Islam (dawah). And like Shikra said, Islam is a part of everything so you can't really leave it out of any discussion.
I saw it pre editting gorgeous. But as I am nice and I like the way you think and speak I'll explani myself.
The point I am trying to make is, poeple do not, in the larger majority of cases use religion as the only factor influencing their decision. And thus, if a proper responce is required you need to take into account the numerous other factors too.
And some individuals do have a tendency to copy paste hadiths/ quotations, with no reguards to context, sometimes the translation is also quite shoddy. In cases such as these I would say the faith was blind. Islam isnot an intolerant religion, it does take personal situations and niyyat into consideration i am sure, and to refuse to discuss a subject without shoehorning a lecture in there is not only stupidity but blindness.
In future try not to judge me either. Shukran.
ANd shikko, why would that be obvious to me? Do non muslims not face these issues?
hiccup yeah, i didnt think what I said was appropriate so I edited. The point remains, Islam is a way of life and we should live it ourselves and encourage others to live it.
Alhumdolillah I don't follow those who copy paste hadiths blindly, I make the effort to search for myself.
And as for people who don't use religion to make their decisions, I see too many people pick and choose what's easiest for them. Like the issue of hijab and interest; they conveniently forget Islam for these things but suddenly remember Islam at isha time. most of us are not perfect but at least we should try to be and encourage others to be no?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hiccup: *
ANd shikko, why would that be obvious to me? Do non muslims not face these issues?
[/QUOTE]
That should be obvious to you because lets take a look at this example:
A gora (non muslim) comes to me and asks me that he would like to have sex with his wife's friend just because he's bored of his wife, what do you think? I would say "It's your choice, if you are ok with it and your wife is okay with it, then go right ahead".
A Muslim comes to me and asks me that he would like to have sex with his wife's friend just because he's bored of his wife, what do you think? I would say "It's wrong to have sex outside of marriage. Islam discourages it and prohibits it. I would advise you not to do it."
Do you see the difference in my replies? I can NOT tell the gora not to have sex with his wife's friend just because that's what MY religion says :-s However, what I CAN say to him is this: You go ahead and do whatever you want, if I were you, I wouldn't do it simply because my religion (Islam) does not allow me to do it".
That's why I thought it would be obvious to you becaue I have mentioned (Muslims) in the very first line of my very first post. Ofcourse you can't force Islamic laws on any non muslim because I would hate it if some non muslim was trying to force his religion's laws on me. However, I can reply to him what I would do in his situation according to my Islamic laws.
How can one take the religion out of any certain act completely :-s It pisses me off.
Thanks for your input and a shocking story you have there.