Hypocrisy In some muslims that I know

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Re: Hypocrisy In some muslims that I know

OK, I understand that yes, we shouldnt judge people on how many sins they commit/dont commit - i have said before and I will say again, we are all human. However, at the same time, people are always defending the people committing sin - instead of guiding them and educating them about Islam.... as Muslims, we should defend Islam, not the people who are comitting sin and it always seems to be the case that when someone talks about a certain person committing a certain type of sin - we are always quick to say "Oh, let them do it, its OK" or something along those lines. Why dont Muslims defend Islam? This is what I dont understand. As soon as I jump to defend my religion, i get a host of people who call themselves Muslims and they point fingers at me by saying "oh, you are judging that person" - no i am not judging them, i am simply telling that person they are committing a sin. I would be committing a sin if i stood there and watched a fellow Muslim eating haraam. This is the very reason why the west have a wrong perception of Islam, this is why Islam is having a bashing in this day and age, because people like to choose people over their religion. A question to those people who like to defend Muslims who eat haraam or commit other sins - should we also say to terrorists "Oh, its OK, you can kill innocent people, even though you are mispresenting Islam, do it, its OK". This is exactly what is happening, not enough Muslims are standing up to defend their religion and say that its wrong to kill innocents - instead people like to just sit back and say, "Oh, its OK". It is because of this mindset among Muslims, that the west can rage attacks against Muslims and spread neoconservatist ideas into the world, so that Islamic world can be curropted for the purpose of western ideals. Instead Nassar (Egyptian prime minister) chose the path of Americanization over an Islamic State for Egypt and he tortured those who wanted to defend Islam. Nassar also called himself a Muslim. Its this mindset that causes anger within Islamist who go so deep and eventually resort to manipulating the name of Islam, just so they can stand up for their religion and in the end, instead of portraying Islam for what it really is - they distort it and take Jihad out of context. As Muslims, we need to start defending our religion, so that Islam cannot be curropted because of the fear element in the western world and we can then parade Islam for what it really is. Submission to Allah, which then leads to peace. We need to educate those people who we know are committing sin, not just sit back and watch. Shame on those who just want to sit back.

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I feel sorry for you too. I truely do.

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Yes you are right. But when people dont treat me with respect, especially when i defend my religion then why respect someone who cannot respect me in the first place?

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Is giving people respect conditional? I did not know that. I am reminded of narrations about the Prophet's life when he had trash thrown him often by a woman in the area, and when she did not throw trash on him, he inquired and found out she was ill, he went to see her.

Sehri and Iftaar 2012
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Re: Hypocrisy In some muslims that I know

Yaar, its not hypocrisy these actions stem from, but from pride and arrogance....things which breed an air of self-righteousness which many many Muslims have

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Re: Hypocrisy In some muslims that I know

yes true muslims are hypocrates true 100% true

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Well, i must say that at least you know who the prophet (SAW) is. Now who is making judgements?? You in particular dont seem a perfect advocate for Islam. If you think that defending my religion is disrespectful then so be it. I respect Islam, not those who take it in vain, like you.

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awwwww touched a nerve eh?

I dont think defending religion is disrespecftul. I think being disrespectful is being disrespectful.
you may want to figure out what the difference is :)

so I take islam in vain? how do you take it? with cream and sugar?

PS: that note aboutr taking it easy on insults, that was not an advise, nor a request, or a recommendation. sort yourself our pronto.

London 2012 Olympics - Men's Hockey
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Re: Hypocrisy In some muslims that I know

bunhun:

Your premise is problematic to say the least. First of all, as a person with common sense it behooves you to not lecture people when you perceive that they have violated a principle of their religion for the following reasons:

  1. Interpretation varies. Not all cultures practice Islam the same way. In many Muslim cultures you will see women in skirts (be they long or shorter: Turkey, Egypt) or not at all. Other interpretations vary among the four schools of Islam. To this add that not all Muslims interpret the Qu'ran the same way. "Dressing modestly" can be interpreted in many ways in fact. Throw in our biological and psychological imperatives, that young people dress to attract others, regardless of culture and will therefore always find ways of subverting "rules" and expressing themselves.

  2. Interpretation and Practice Must Always Confront Exigency
    I could not count on all of Ganesh's fingers and toes how many Hindus I know that eat meat, (a good Hindu friend of mine tried to tempt me from vegetarianism by cooking a wickedly spicy chicken curry) Jewish people who eat pork, Buddhists who throw temper tantrums, Jains who squash roaches, etc. In these cases, no one is forcing these people to break their respective mainstream religious tenets, but they do. I did not lecture them because well, I'm not a knucklehead.

In the case of Muslim Americans, many work in the frameworks they can. Some Muslims are very strict in their halal, whether veggie or meat. Others do not find it to be an issue. I'm sure that had the choices been available, those Muslims would have probably preferred halal or kosher. Probably.

Choice in What Matters and What Doesnt

I know Muslims who drink and those who dont. I dont find Muslims who drink to be any less spiritual, committed, engaged, etc. with the religion than those who dont. I don't have a problem with either group. There is no compulsion in Islam and each Muslim takes responsibility for his/her actions with himself/herself and their God. You have no business in the matter.
The reasoning behind prohibiting alcohol is probably related to alcoholism and maintaining self control and religious adherence at times when numbers were important.

Anyhoo, thanks for the laugh...your posts were hilarious!

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Re: Hypocrisy In some muslims that I know

bunnyhoney - continue to enlighten us about your understanding of Islam. It's highly amusing to tell you the truth.

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Did you seriously just compare eating chicken tacos to terrorism and murder? :smack:

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maybe those tacos are from taco bell..

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:smiley:

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Thanks for this informative lecture, even though none of this has anything to do with the subject matter. Of course anything or any opinion that isn't agreed by you or anyone else for that matter is 'problematic', as you say. i didnt violate anyone. I said i defended my religion, not people and Islam is a very simple to follow religion. If you wanna talk about meat as an example, then ill say now again, like i said before. Keeping to the rule of eating halal is an easy thing to do, no matter where in the world you live. You and many people in this forum hold the similar views. In your little essay was all about defending the people's actions and not what Islam says. Culture is an offspring of civilization, there are different cultures across the world and yes i agree different parts of the world practise Islam differently. However you forget that there is only one Islam. In Islam it says that a women should wear a long skirt. Its simple - there is no compromise in that. Islam says a women should cover from head to toe. What part of that can be differentiated? If you wear a short skirt, it goes against what Islam says. Yes, there are different interpretation of Islam, but it is common sense that a women should cover from head to two and people should eat halal and not haraam. There is no misinterpretation of that. AFAIK there is no school of thought that doesnt recognise halal and says that a person can eat any meat. All schools of thought say you should eat halal. So, please enlighten me, If Islam says in all schools that halal only should be eaten, how can this fact be misinterpreted? Misinterpretation occurs in complex issues, but not in halal and haraam and whether on should wear a long or short skirt. These are basic things in Islam that are easy to follow and I am saying that there is no excuse to not follow it. Thats my thought and i am sticking to it.

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hunbun,

Let me ask you a quick question-do you follow your religion literally? In other words, do you delude yourself that you have found the most authentic and truest interpretation of your religion and that you practice it?

Because I can guarantee that there will be at least a hundred people who would say that your practice is inauthentic.

Why is that?

Timepass-July 2012
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I follow Islam by avoiding sin, like not eating haraam and not drinking. I dont follow my own interpretation of religion, I follow what Islam says. Simple as that.

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Thats was just an example. What i meant was that they are both sins.

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BTW I KNEW that question would come up. I KNEW it.

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I don't see "defending Islam" to be a part of pointing at people who are committing "sin" as you know there is no clergy in Islam, that is part of its beauty, at the same time, this makes Islam open to interpretation. I do understand the concept of Political Islam, where Islam needs to be defended from the inside out. I would venture to say that moderate muslims who interact with non-muslims and show a positive imiage of islam do more to "defend' islam in the current world. I would say defending islam is making sure no one is being forced out of a job for being a muslim or out of an educational oppurtunity, at the same time, I'd say defending islam involved educating the general public about what muslims belive, our political agenda etc. I don't see how point to people who are self identifiying themselves as mulisms and pointing their flaws is defending islam. Isn't that actually causing divisins from the inside and presenting a weaker picture of Islam to the rest of the world?

Moderates and fundamentalist need to come within the same perview of the Ummah and uniformly defend islam to the outside if you truley belive that is something that needs to be done. If not the mullahs will alienate the moderates the moderates will continue to think the fundo's are critical and bitter and the moderates will do less to defend the rights of the fundos.

I have many examples of moderate to secular muslims, defending the rights of women to wear hijab (who choose to do so) in schools and colleges and work places, but after a while it gets hard to defend people (not religion) but the people who choose to judge and point fingers rather than see the big picture.

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[quote="“shoponline4kaprey, post:8, topic:189265"”]

I don’t see “defending Islam” to be a part of pointing at people who are committing “sin” as you know there is no clergy in Islam, that is part of its beauty, at the same time, this makes Islam open to interpretation.
[/quote]

No, you are right it is not about “pointing” however Islam also is about improving yourelf as a human being. For example women are not born wearing the hijaab, these women grow through educating themselves about Islam to gain more knowledge about it and in the process their faith gets stronger and their believe becomes mature just like anything in life. The more you understand something, the deeper you get into it and the more it forms as a way of life. This is the case with Islam and for any religion for that matter. An example in Christianity are those women who decide to enter Nunhood for the sake of God. They are not born and say as babies “I will become a Nun” - they grow and mature and educate themselves enough to make sure they make the correct religious desicions in life. The more they study and learn about their religion, the more religious they get. This invlves committing sins in the process of life to strenghten your religious belief and then correcting those sins. Now for this reason a Nun is perceived as a women who is close to God, in that she has dedicated her whole life to God. A Muslim woman who decides to observe purdah is perceived to be knowledgeable about Islam, because she had made that big step towards the commitment of observing purdah. No women goes into it blindly and she knows that she would be looked upon as a religious role model for having sound Islamic knowledge that she had aquired in her journey of learning about Islam and her faith. For example a Mullah tends to be more respected in the sense that they have more Islamic knowledge that people tend to trust more then a person that isnt a mullah. People always go to the mosque to consult on everyday issues with a sheikh, why dont these people turn to their moderate Muslim next door neighbour? Simply because a sheikh has more of an Islamic foundation and knowledge of the Quran and the Hadith. A Muslim neighbour can give advise as to what she/he thinks is correct, however their interpretation could be incorrect. A women of purdah is respected in a similar sense, but i wouldnt say more then how a sheikh is respected for his Islamic knowledge. Even though a sheikh can have what some people might say are different/wrong interpretations, they have the Islamic knowledge, evidence and knowledge of Hadith to back it up. An Aalim is trained in this, it is his profession. A women observing purdah has the responsibility to safegaurd her religion, because she has chosen to do that by safegaurding herself by observing purdah - and observing purdah is a choice she has made to re-affirm her Islamic faith. Observing purdah signifies that your faith is at a certain level and that is quite a high level - a women in purdah damn right observes Islam in the most correct manner as she can, through not commiting sins such as drinking alcohol. Bearing this in mind - would you say that its OK not to comment on a women observing purdah who is at the same time sitting in a pub drinking alcohol, simple because you say we cannot judge, for example? Yes, we cannot judge - thats only Allah’s job. But what about the fact that Islam is being misprepresented? There is no clergy in Islam, however there is a right and wrong and a line.
This is my point, its not about “pointing” fingers.

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I do understand the concept of Political Islam, where Islam needs to be defended from the inside out.
[/quote]

Well, you may call me wrong and so may some other people in this forum, but as far as I am concerned, there is only one Islam. “Political Islam” is another kind of interpretation for what people think should be political Islam. Sharia is part of the one whole Islam - the term “Political Islam” is something conceived by the west, just like the term “Al-Qaeda”.

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I would venture to say that moderate muslims who interact with non-muslims and show a positive imiage of islam do more to "defend’ islam in the current world.
[/quote]

Here I agree with you.

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I would say defending islam is making sure no one is being forced out of a job for being a muslim or out of an educational oppurtunity,
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I do agree with you, however I think the list goes on a lot longer then this. What about more serious issues? The attempts of the Bush Doctrine to forcefully push the concept of democracy/Americanization for their own interests into the Islamic world is also something that needs to be defended against. His vison doesn’t include a world that has an islamic state, it includes a world that is overwhelmed by the concept of ‘democracy’ and American values, i.e western values that shun Islamic ones.

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I don’t see how point to people who are self identifiying themselves as mulisms and pointing their flaws is defending islam. Isn’t that actually causing divisins from the inside and presenting a weaker picture of Islam to the rest of the world?
[/quote]

As you say “presenting a weaker picture of Islam to the rest of the world” - non-Muslims and especially Americans are confused about the concept of Islam. On one hadn it says you can do Jihad which kills innocent people and then at the same time they say Islam is a peaceful religion? Which one of these two is the misrep? Of course its the killing of innocent people. Maybe the scale of sins that I am showing as an example here are are completly different sides of the scale - but Muslims committing even what they would call a minor sin can cause confusion amongst non-muslims and these sins can be simple as eating pork or drinking. However they also contribute to misrep of Islam, just like a Islamic terrorist attack does. Of course these two sins are at different levels, but most non-muslims know that Muslims cannot drink or eat pork. Put yourself in the shoes of non-Muslims. They would say "If they can drink alcohol and eat pork, which is a sin for them - then how comes they are going so far to defend their religion by plotting terrorist attacks in the name of Islam, when they cannot even obstain from eating Pork? Before anyone asks - i know that those Muslims who eat pork are not the same people who commit the sin of terrorist attacks. However, there is one thing similar between them both and that is that they both call themselve Muslim. Bearing this in mind, your comment “Isn’t that actually causing divisins from the inside” Divisions within Islam already exists and that is what I mean by defending Islam. The weaker picture of Islam to the rest of the world already exists. Muslims misrepresenting Islam in front of non-Muslims by doing things such as my previous examples isn’t setting a good image about Islam.

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Moderates and fundamentalist need to come within the same perview of the Ummah and uniformly defend islam to the outside if you truley belive that is something that needs to be done.
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And this is what I am saying - we need to defend Islam and come together - by helping each other as Muslims and to together re-affirm our true faith. This involvs eliminating petty sins that can be avoided and this needs to be done to represent Islam in the correct light. As Obama says, we need to start “From the ground up”

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if not the mullahs will alienate the moderates the moderates will continue to think the fundo’s are critical and bitter and the moderates will do less to defend the rights of the fundos.

I have many examples of moderate to secular muslims, defending the rights of women to wear hijab in schools and colleges and work places, but after a while it gets hard to defend people
[/quote]

Well, like I said before its easy to defend PEOPLE and thats what people always do and what people have always done on this forum, whenever I have commented on people committing sin. Religion is the one to defend, not people - satan wants people to commit sin and makes it harder for religion to come back into their life. Thats why so many people commit petty sins such as missing a prayer to watch a movie or something. Its just so much more easier and “pleasureable” to watch a movie then do a prayer, which sometimes can be seen as a chore.

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but the people who choose to judge and point fingers rather than see the big picture.
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What do you think is the bigger picture exactly?

A lot of people may not like my thoughts/opinions/my comments or whatever, but as everyone else I am entitled to my own opinion and I dont expect to get a bashing for having my own opinion, just like others do not expect a bashing for their opinions, no matter how more popular the other persons opinion is. This is not about who is right and who is wrong, because as far as I am concerned when it comes to religion, i like to follow the religion, period. If i choose not to eat haraam chicken tacos, then thats my choice and I am entitled to that choice and do not expect to be bashed for doing that by fellow Muslims. As Muslims we need to come together and stop this bashing and defend what our religion is.