"Hurry up, Kolya, while she's still warm"

(With apologies, not certain whether this was previously posted). After sustained exposure, many of us get used to horrific news but, once in a while, you still stumble upon something that shocks you with the realization of how depraved humanity can get. & how shockingly silent the rest of us are.
Am not including the entire article due to its length. It was written by Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich, for the Polish-language edition of Newsweek, and was reprinted in the Observer on 27 October 2002. No “good” guys here - both sides are guilty of committing human rights abuses; whether or not Chechen rebels have utilized rape as a systematic tool of violence i have yet to discover.

Under the Jackboot, 14 October 2002, Newsweek (introduction by Christian Caryl)

…] Cut off and isolated, Russian troops’ best hope of discovering guerrilla activity is by grabbing citizens, almost at random, and coercing from them whatever information they might have.

In its most benign form, such raids are limited to theft of personal property - from cars, refrigerators and television sets to jewellery, clothes, pots and pans, and, of course, money. But they frequently turn ugly. ‘They arrived on 23 August at 5am,’ says Zuhra from Enikaloi. ‘There were about 100 army vehicles, all packed with soldiers. We ran out to meet them with our documents. God forbid you encounter an impatient ‘federal’. If you do, then in the best-case scenario you may be tortured or shot dead on the spot. In the worst case, they take you away. About 20 of them, armed to the teeth and wearing masks, climbed into the yard and the house. As always, they were dirty, unshaven and reeking of vodka. They cursed horribly. They shot at our feet. They took my identification papers and started to shred them. I had bought them for 500 roubles. They cost me everything I had. They went to our neighbours’ house, the Magomedova family. We heard shots and the screams of 15-year-old Aminat, the sister of Ahmed and Aslanbek. “Let her be!” screamed one of the brothers, “Kill us instead!”. Then we heard more shots. Through the window we saw a half-dressed OMON commander lying on top of Aminat. She was covered in blood from the bullet wounds. Another soldier shouted, “Hurry up, Kolya, while she’s still warm”.’

Sometimes those who survive wish they were dead, as in Zernovodsk this summer, when townspeople say they were chased on to a field and made to watch women being raped. When their men tried to defend them, 68 of them were handcuffed to an armoured truck and raped too. After this episode, 45 of them joined the guerrillas in the mountains. One older man, Nurdi Dayeyev, who was nearly blind, had nails driven through his hands and feet because it was suspected that he was in contact with the fighters. When relatives later retrieved his remains, he was missing a hand. The relatives of another villager, Aldan Manayev, picked up a torso but no head.


Article accessible in its entirety here.

My dear Nadia, you are always very fond of articles written in favour of your cult.

You remeber once I requested you to get aquanted with some non Chechen Muslim living in Russia and pls get all first hand information from him.

I am not interested in waisting time and bring in articles prooving that chechens have frequently stolen childeren and have released them after getting good ransoms. Will you beleive if you read that some times these childern returend without hand fingures.

We can discuss if the Chechen war is politically correct. I assure you that the present day Chechenya was not Chechnya in 19th century. City Grozny was built by russians to check the attacks by Chechens from mountains. Later they were given an opportuniy to live a normal life, that we know Chechnya toda, and now they are demanding a division.
Pls read some history, and we can discuss if Chechens are poilitically correct?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by anand: *
We can discuss if the Chechen war is politically correct. I assure you that the present day Chechenya was not Chechnya in 19th century. City Grozny was built by russians to check the attacks by Chechens from mountains. Later they were given an opportuniy to live a normal life, that we know Chechnya toda, and now they are demanding a division.
Pls read some history, and we can discuss if Chechens are poilitically correct?
[/QUOTE]

We don't wanna go by history otherwise many things wouldnt be as they are now. I don't think America was every a white state. Do you?
Back in early years of that same goes for Australia, New Zealand and and and.....

Thoroughly shocking.

It's a shame that so many people are ignorant of the suffering of the Chechnyans - well first they'd have to know what Chechnya is to be ignorant and sadly many in the first world are like Chech-what?

The recent crisis has brought the issue to the fore and i hope that's where it stays.

The Russian forces are savages, its a shame we overlook the suffering of our chechan brothers, Allah grant them peace.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mo_best: *
The Russian forces are savages, its a shame we overlook the suffering of our chechan brothers, Allah grant them peace.
[/QUOTE]

You have a chechan brother? What's his name?

Chechen suffering is terrible. What is also terrible is the suffering and persecution of non-Muslims in many Muslim countries, which gets no attention by the media. You don’t see it everyday in the New York Times about hundreds of Christians killed on daily basis in the Sudan, Jews being harassed and raped in Iran, Hindus and others in Pakistan, Christians in Indonesia, and Copts in Egypt. It’s always “Muslims” who feel that they are the only victims. I guess it is time to grow up and take some responsibility, and smell the coffee.

Until there are monsters like the Saudis and the Iraqis (governments that is) and self appointed dictators all across the Islamic world, it takes their right to criticize Russia away. First look inside your houses. Chechnya is not your neighbor, let alone brother. Your sympathies should lie with Christians in Sudan and Indonesia. They are your brothers and neighbors.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Chechen suffering is terrible. What is also terrible is the suffering and persecution of non-Muslims in many Muslim countries, which gets no attention by the media. You don’t see it everyday in the New York Times about hundreds of Christians killed on daily basis in the Sudan, Jews being harassed and raped in Iran, Hindus and others in Pakistan, Christians in Indonesia, and Copts in Egypt. It’s always “Muslims” who feel that they are the only victims. I guess it is time to grow up and take some responsibility, and smell the coffee.

Until there are monsters like the Saudis and the Iraqis (governments that is) and self appointed dictators all across the Islamic world, it takes their right to criticize Russia away. First look inside your houses. Chechnya is not your neighbor, let alone brother. Your sympathies should lie with Christians in Sudan and Indonesia. They are your brothers and neighbors.
[/QUOTE]

Why don't you complain abou the Saudi problem to Bush personally? I would be also be very interested about his views on that. How "legitimate" this government is for him.
About the rest it's a cultural problem not a religious and the attitude they adopt. Our prophet used to live with jews side by side remember that.

>>My dear Nadia, you are always very fond of articles written in favour of your cult. You remeber once I requested you to get aquanted with some non Chechen Muslim living in Russia and pls get all first hand information from him. I am not interested in waisting time and bring in articles prooving that chechens have frequently stolen childeren and have released them after getting good ransoms. Will you beleive if you read that some times these childern returend without hand fingures.<<
Anand,

With all due respect if i am wrong regarding my beliefs vis-a-vis the Chechens, the onus is upon you to prove me wrong not for me to go out digging anti-Chechen stuff from racist websites to prove your point.

Regarding the children - yes, i will believe that because as i stated initially in my post - rebel Chechen groups have also been found guilty of committing human rights violations. Whether or not they have utilized rape as one of their tools in the same manner that Russian forces have, is certainly held in doubt by me because i have not yet read anything that would make me draw that conclusion. (Here i am referring to reports from HRW, not racist anti-Chechen websites of which apparently there are plenty).

i would strongly suggest you read the writings of a Russian journalist, Anna Politkovskaya, who works for the Russian paper, Novaia Gazeta. Speaking from the perspectives of a Russian, not a Chechen, her writings shed further light upon the grave abuses of human rights being perpetrated by Putin and his forces.

Dear Nadia, given are excerpts from your article;

Remember Chechnya
‘A brief look at events on a typical day this month illustrate the point. Nov. 4: Federal troops at a checkpoint open fire on a passing tractor. Fifty-two-year old tractor driver Sultan Suleimanov and his assistant, 42-year-old Akhmed Sadullayev, are lucky. They are in intensive care, but they are alive. While proceeding along a road bordering the town of Akhchoi-Martan, a military column opens fire on a roadside cafe. A 19-year-old waitress, Larisa Bugaeva, a refugee from Grozny, is killed immediately; another waitress, 30-year-old Larisa Khatimova, is seriously wounded and is taken to the intensive care unit. The column, meanwhile, continues toward the mountains without even slowing down.’

I just think who took these Sultan, Akhmed and Larisa Khatimova to intensive care unit?

Russian are so bad people that first they shoot and then take the victims for treatment! May be this Anna has written this article in a hurry?
Nadia, pls ask her to create a better fantasy next time!

I marvel at some of the logic presented here.

Dear Nadia, here is an article by the same Anna, written on the last month terror episode at Moscow musical hall.
This article is written less for the hostages and more in self prise. This article may appease anti Russian media, though has no journalist criteria.
Here you are….

I tried and failed

/My soles squeaked on the floor of the theatre, and the sharp noise made by my feet on the broken glass will always reverberate painfully in my heart. I kicked spent cartridges as I walked, tossing them up. My legs felt like rubber from fear. “Why have I, a woman, got myself into this hellish situation?” I thought. “We have macho men at every crossroads, just whistle for them. Why did I have to come here?” /

This Anna, a journalist does not know that a doctor, some prominent Russian politicians and one former Prime Minister Promikov also entered the hall during those terrible hrs.

/Had I done a lot or a little? A little of course. But I could not do more. When the place was stormed, all the terrorists I had spoken to died. And with them died 67 of the hostages who had drunk my juice before death. Let war be damned. /

I know that a Russian doctor (Russian names are very difficult) convinced the terrorists for bringing in juice and water for hostages. Anna is taking the credit.
It seems that she was so much for publicity that could not wait for two three days, as the death toll reached 117 the day after.
This Anna, a Jew of polish origin, has only longings for awards, money and popularity from the traditional anti Russian Western media, and nothing else.

Dear Nadia, every thing that is written in favor of your cult is not green. Pls learn to differentiate the yellow press.

Anand, the original article addresses the gross human rights violations by the Russians in their military occupation of Chechnya. Although some chechen rebels maybe guilty of war crimes, the VAST majority of violations are carried out by the Russian forces. Now if you wish to call HRW and other Human Rights Organisations/Humanitarians even freelance journalists, as cults than it only SHOWS your complete ignorance to the issues being discussed.

Crime is crime, you do it once of 1000 times. I think it is pathetic to kill inocent people to prove you point.

>>Russian are so bad people that first they shoot and then take the victims for treatment! May be this Anna has written this article in a hurry? Nadia, pls ask her to create a better fantasy next time!<<

Anand,
Please do point out where, in ANY of my posts on Gupshup in ANY forum, i have ever stated that Russians are “bad” people. i guarantee you will not find a single post stating anything to the effect. With all due respect, let’s not turn this into a goodguys/badguys thread - in my humblest opinion that will get us nowhere.

From the start, the intention of my thread has been to highlight the treatment of Chechen civilians by Russian forces. Nothing sinister, nothing prejudiced, just the treatment of Chechen civilians. i frankly don’t care about anything else right now - just Chechen civilians. i was horrifed by the use of rape, it’s a devastating crime i think, hence this thread. That is why the thread opens with an article regarding the use of rape by Russian forces. While you have implied that all Chechens are terrorists, and argued that Russians are not all “bad people”, i have yet to hear your comments regarding the use of rape by Russian forces. Please, any specific comments regarding this act by Russian forces?

Regarding your comments about Anna Politkovskaya - just as a quick note of observation, she was the recipient of the 2002 Courage in Journalism Award. Were it not for the fact that your doing so is so blatantly biased, i find it amusing that in your second-last post you criticize her for developing - as you put it - a “fantasy” in her writings; subsequently, in your last post, you very selectively quote an excerpt from this “fantasy” writer. If she is in fact developing fantasies, then i would as a friend advise you against utilizing any of her material.

Lastly, Anand, may i make a humble request - your use of the word “cult” does no one any favours least of all, my friend, yourself. If, by “cult”, you are referring to a religion that has 1.6 billion adherents around the world, then i am astonished. If by “cult” you are referring to a faith that is the fastest-growing religion in the world, then it is rather disappointing. Let’s keep this thread focused upon Chechen civilians and Russian forces; if you want to dispute over the legitimacy of whether or not Islam is a “cult”, please do open a thread in the Religion Forum for that purpose where you can feel good by bashing Islam to your heart’s content. i mean NO personal offense to yourself. All i feel is rather disappointed that the majority of discussions with yourself tend to become an attempt by yourself to insult a religion dearer to me than anything else in this world. It is extremely saddening that the tolerance i am able to show on, and off, Gupshup - vis-a-vis Indians, Hinduism, Christianity, etc. - is not reciprocated by yourself in kind. Any individual who is able to reciprocate that tolerance in a genuine manner, i think, reveals volumes of a truly wonderful character.

Regards,
nadia

My Dear Nadia,

  1. You are a good person. You consider Russians are good or bad, makes no sense, we are analyzing an article from a war type situation.

  2. Why are you sure that the article about rape by a Russian Kolya is correct, and true in all sense? You must find out how the Western world likes to defame Russia and the third world traditionally. I expect you to analyze any article before you ask us to read it.

  3. I have very simply analyzed an article by Anna. If she writes the true story of Chechen terror, will she get any award? ………No.

  4. I accept your objection to the word ‘cult’. What Chechens are fighting? A political war? We can discuss. Or a religious war? Also we can discuss. The problem is that we do not know at what stage we can discuss this type of conflict. They frequently change their umbrellas. If a cult can mechanize 1000 or 2000 simple gentry, cannot it mechanize 1.6 billion?

  5. I repeat, you are a good person. But when you are in a discussion, you represent a system, you defend a system against all logics…..pls do not forget!

Sometimes I feel jealousy for your kind of tolerance. But cannot help it. It is really a bad habit that I look for some logics.

With best rgds

Sorry, Anand, maybe i was a bit rude and brusque in my last post. i didn't mean to be, i am sorry.

It's about 1am here right now, feeling rather sleepy, so will reply to your post after i get some sleep. Just wanted to say that i sincerely apologize for being rude, it was wrong of me and i am sorry.

All the best,
nadia

Dear Nadia, this word ‘rude’ can easily be implemented to my posts. Thru such discussions we have a good chance for more and more information. I am sure in your language there is nothing objectionable, and no ‘sorry’ pls.

While you are asleep, I once again have a chance to read the original article.
Let us read again….

‘Through the window we saw a half-dressed OMON commander lying on top of Aminat. She was covered in blood from the bullet wounds. Another soldier shouted, “Hurry up, Kolya, while she’s still warm”.’

Pls imagine this picture, window heights, and there is a spectator from another house, window must be wide open, spectator must be at some height from the main scenario…………..!

I promise, next time I will not use the word ‘all chechens’, I never mean all Chechens. But pls do not blame me if I say majority of them! Yes, I have always talked of majority of them.
(Ps, pls analyze the situation. I assure you that Russians will not give up their land and interests in Chechnya, West is traditionally inerested in a weak Russia, and international terrorism is backing Chechens, at the same time religion is involved…anything may end in some holocaust.)

With best rgds and a very good morning….
:flower1::flower1::flower1:

Anand what you are trying to do is to disprove that atrocities committed against women take place at all. For your info, HRW, Amnesty, NGO’s as well as news organsations have documented cases of mass rape committed by Russian forces against chechens.

Serious Violations of Women’s Human Rights in Chechnya](Russian Federation: Serious Violations of Women's Human Rights in Chechnya | Human Rights Watch)

Rape and Other Forms of Sexual Violence in Chechnya: Despite cultural taboos against speaking about rape, witnesses provided evidence that Russian soldiers raped Chechen women in areas of Russian-controlled Chechnya and sexually assaulted both men and women in detention centers. In 1999 and 2000, Human Rights Watch researchers found that rapes occurred on the outskirts of villages, at checkpoints, and in detention centers. Fear of rape by Russian forces was pervasive, causing some families, particularly those with young women and girls, to flee and motivating desperate attempts to hide female family members. The cases outlined below draw from direct testimony provided to Human Rights Watch in the field.Full Report](Russian Federation: Serious Violations of Women's Human Rights in Chechnya | Human Rights Watch)

Other Article : Russia: Investigate Sexual Violence by Troops in Chechnya](http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/chechnya041002.htm)

(New York, April 10, 2002) – Russian forces have raped and sexually assaulted women during winter operations in Chechnya, Human Rights Watch charged today. Five women have told Human Rights Watch researchers about incidents of sexual violence they endured earlier this year. Three of the women tried to report the assaults to local authorities who refused to investigate the allegations. During so-called “sweep” operations, when Russian forces conduct house-to-house searches for those believed to be involved in Chechen rebel activity, male relatives often leave their villages for safer locations to reduce the risk of arbitrary arrest, torture, and “disappearances.” However, without men in the house, women become more vulnerable to soldiers intent on sexual assault. Full article](http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/chechnya041002.htm)

>>Why are you sure that the article about rape by a Russian Kolya is correct, and true in all sense? You must find out how the Western world likes to defame Russia and the third world traditionally. I expect you to analyze any article before you ask us to read it.<<
Anand,
This article is written by a Russian author who repeatedly criticizes policies of her own government. i strongly suggest you read Politkovskaya's book, A Dirty War: A Russian Reporter in Chechnya. You state that the "Western world likes to defame Russia" - this is not a "Western" world's journalist, this is a Russian author. i'm sorry but i am not certain how you get off claiming that her writing is biased - maybe if she was a Chechen, there would be SOME validity to your arguments (although even then i would not be too eager to endorse that view). For goodness' sake, she is Russian herself - how would she be biased against her own government?

In the WA Forum, i frequently utilize the writings of journalists like John Pilger, Robert Fisk, Noam Chomsky. Why? Because the chances of someone accusing me of using a biased source are minimized; Pilger, an Australian journalist residing in the UK, is extremely critical of the policies of British, American, and Australian governments. Fisk, originally British residing in Lebanon, is critical of western policies. Chomsky, a Jewish professor, is one of the foremost and most powerful critics of Israeli policies. Same goes for Politkovskaya - as a Russian, her writings regarding the treatment of Chechens by Russian forces are apt to carry more weight, more legitimacy. So i would suggest you employ slightly more caution before you accuse me of utilizing a biased source; i am not using a Chechen source (although even if i was, i wouldn't see anything greatly wrong with that).

>>If she writes the true story of Chechen terror, will she get any award? ………No.<<
How do you know this for certain?
For my own knowledge, by the way, define what is meant by "Chechen terror"? Have i ever implied there is such a thing as "Russian terror"? This discussion will go nowhere, Anand, unless we both stop using stereotypes in our discussions. To be honest, i really am not in the mood to visit the WA Forum and check this thread out each day merely to read more ugly stereotypes against Chechens.

>>If a cult can mechanize 1000 or 2000 simple gentry, cannot it mechanize 1.6 billion?<<
If you want to discuss this issue from a religious perspective, please take it to the Religion Forum.

>>It is really a bad habit that I look for some logics.<<
There is a massive dissimilarity between deliberately searching for "logic" versus searching for "faults". Of course i am not in any position to know best, but sometimes i receive the impression you are more interested in criticizing particular "systems" rather than learning about them. That is where my frustration comes in because, frankly, if you have already made up your mind to oppose a particular religion (Islam) or oppose a group of people (Chechens), then this discussion was over before it even started and we are both wasting each other's time.

Two parties cannot engage in a discussion when one party has already pre-determined what s/he is going to believe, regardless of any and all external information provided.

>>But pls do not blame me if I say majority of them!<<
i will blame you for this as well. It is akin to me stating the majority of Indians are _____ (fill in with a negative stereotype). That would be an utterly erroneous thing to do, and your doing the same regarding Chechens is no different. It is wrong to harbor such stereotypes of others. Period.