Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Please explain to me how fighting same enemy in two different time spheres can be treated in different perspective ?

For instance people who were against a dictatorship ( Zia-ul-haq) Some people were in Karachi , some Lahore and some in Rawalpindi. All of them protesting against same dictator in different time frame and sphere. All of them got arrested and put in confinement.

I say people who were in Rawalpindi were actually on right path, Others were not

Am I right ?

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

It is simple, it doesn't suit my business model!!!

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

1-Hur b Yazid's character is overly glorified in present day Imami shia culture.He and his son were not the only ones who defected from army of ibn Sa'd to Hussain.According to ibn Kathir in Al bidaya 40 noblemen of Kufa did so and the number of those killed with Hussain is closer to 150 rather than 72.Hur's example makes a tragic tale which moves the masses to tears and it has become a convention thats why his story is told again and again.However it should be said in Hur's defence that he choose certain death unlike other opponents of Yazid who atleast had some chance of survival and even success.
But its wrong to just remember him and not others, I certainly agree with you on this.

2-12er imami shias would have no interest in remembering Abduallh b zubair, their religion comes ( according to them ) from their imam's teaching anybody elses stance is of no importance to them.Even if these people are bloodline of Hussain/hasan e.g have u attended any majalis about Zayd b ali's or nafs az zakiyah's uprisings ? or those of the tawwabun ? even though these people are closely related to Hussain b ali and fighting against tyrants

3-Why should we stop at Abdullah b zubair ? why not remember Tawwabun and Abdullah b Hanzala at Harra ? are they any inferior to ibn zubair in anyway ?

4-Another reason why the uprsising of ibn zubair is forgotten is because the sunni fiqahs which evolved in the late ummayyad and abbassid period did not glorify periods of intra-sahaba warfare.This was not encouraged by the tyrant rulers and the imams had no option but to stifle dissent and approve of the rulers of their time.Even though earlier imams politically oppossed tyrnats of their time e.g Imam-e-Azam Abu hanifa and Imam Malik.

5-Abduallah b zubairs uprising did not have any clear ideological goals.Ibn Zubair is like Mukhtar Thaqafi in this respect a political maverick and a survivor who always managed to make alliances with his former enemies to defeat his present foes.E.g ibn zubairs allies included Mukhtar at a time,Ibrahim b Malik Al Ashtar the famous enemy of uthman ( even though ibn zubair was himself uthmanid).Previously ibn zubair was an ally of ummayyads when he led the disastrous campaign against Ali with his aunt Aisha, consequently one of ibn zubairs brother amr was a ummayyad and his later opponent.Khawarij factions also at several times supported ibn zubair.These political manoverings enabled him to survive for a long time but did not give his movement any clear direction.And when push came to shove all of ibn zubairs allies deserted him and his empire collapsed like a house of cards ( much like Mukhtar Thaqavi).Moreover he could not leave behind a band of dedicated followers like Alids did who would keep his movement going.

5-Lastly ibn zubair died as a staunch opponent of ummayyads and esp of Hajjaj b yusuf who crucified his body.For fascist arab historians ummayyads and esp hajjaj are great heroes (we see in our own country the hero worship of muhammad b qasim the scoundral who flogged the Tabi'i Attiya b Sa'd r.a who was a disciple of Abdullah b Abbas r.a).They clearly did not see ibn zubairs uprising as a revolt against tyranny but a unneccesary diversion from other conquests.
As later imams would prohibit armed uprsiisngs against tyrants but encouraged obediance ( which was the opinion of certain sahaba like abduallh b umar r.a ) it was difficult to justify ibn zubairs actions.Since it became accepted in sunni and imami shia ideology not to lead armed rebellions against tyrants.

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/477906-what-is-the-meaning-of-name-yazeed.html?daysprune=14

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

fighting a same enemy at same time does not mean all who revolt are the same. Were Che Guevera, Gandhi, Martin Luther, alone in their struggle against the oppressors of their time? why did they alone become the symbol of change and revolt and why arent others remembered?

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

because these people had good propoganda on their sides in their time & later on
MLK was a hedonistic pig and a racist rabble rouser
gandhi was an anglopile and a racist

this comparison is invalid in this case

the survival of the positive memory of Ali and his sons DESPITE the vicious propoganda AGAINST them points to a totally different issue.

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

the point of comparison was to point to the basic fact tht everybody's efforts in lets say in an example of a revolution are relative to several factors.......... true that propaganda/propagation is one of the factors that determines the level of popularity..........

btw, how was Gandhi an anglopile & racist?

[quote]
the survival of the positive memory of Ali and his sons DESPITE the vicious propoganda AGAINST them points to a totally different issue.
[/QUOTE]

truth will survive and falsehood will perish.....that is the promise of Allah SWT

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

So true! :dhimpak:

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

[QUOTE]
, how was Gandhi an anglopile & racist?

[/QUOTE]

look up his views on black africans while he was in south africa

similarly MLK was more seasoned in courting whores than as an orater

[QUOTE]
truth will survive and falsehood will perish.....that is the promise of Allah SWT

[/QUOTE]

reality is less dramatic in this case, Ali and his sons were survived by a huge number of supporters in islamic centers of Iraq and Hijaz.They in todays classification can be called proto-sunnis they preserved the memory of Ali and his heroic fight against ummayyads.These supporters from amongst the Sahaba & Tabeen were the tutors of several of the imams of Ahle sunnah as well.Thus there is a huge wealth of pro-Alid traditions in sunni works.
While Ummayyads lacking legitimacy from the beginning and having a relative paucity of support from the pious salaf were mostly discredited.However since sunni traditionalists did not want to openly criticize sahaba, those oppoenents of Ali who were sahaba their position was somewhat rehablitated by later scholars.

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

hmm I think I remember reading them sometime back........I will take it up with an uncle I know who is a big Gandhi fan once I find out when and why he made those statmnts........in the contxt of this thread I suppose this yet again shows how not every person, situation and scenario is the same...............

[quote]
realitWEis less dramatic in this case, Ali and his sons were survived by a huge number of supporters in islamic centers of Iraq and Hijaz....
[/QUOTE]

errrr.....and obviously One way truth survives is by the means of beings known as humans.........

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

yes humans who are not neccesarily imami shias therefore no specific sect can claim ownership of "the truth"

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

Truth is with Ali and Ali is with truth.........ring a bell?
whoever is with Ali is with the truth........not my fault tht each time someone talks abt supporters and lovers of Ali AS you start ranting abt Imami Shias.........lol

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

^ yeah whoever fought with Ali and were his companions were on the truth and most of them ( if not all) are highly regarded in sunni rijal

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

^Das, seriously bro I know this is internet and there is a chance that multiple ppl might b using ur username and that is fine.......but shud tht not be the case then may I ask if u suffer from a personality disorder or what?.........one moment u say something totally outrageous only to come back and start talking like a sensible man!

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

What abut those in opposition, you didnt make any comment on them and their connection with Rijal :S

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

To the OP; Abdullah Ibn Zubair was an opportunist,a khalifa wanna-be. He showed love and support for the household of Prophet pbuh at one stage only to turn his back on them and show his true colors once he gained power. He put a stop o practice of sending blessings on Prophet and his family in Friday prayers because it threatned his rule. Earlier his negative role in the battle of Bassorah is well known.

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

Thank you all participant of this thread for your input on this subject.

Das-Reich I appreciate your detailed response which was quite educational for me about history which mostly remains covered with lot of dust.

Nussairee- I was about to respond you but … never mind :bummer:

I will do it here soon. Inshallah

I need to know the locations of Hazrat Imam Zainul Abideen(as) and rest of Ahl e- bayt during :

  1. Mukhtar’s gorilla tactics in Kufa and surroundings.

  2. Battle Harra.

  3. Biseige of Madina , Makka and after that the holocaust administered by Hajjaj

  4. Death of Abdullah Ibn-e Zubair

I will appreciate if someone can briefly tell me about these parts of our history. thanks

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

Ali b Hussain was neutral in all these conflicts
contradicting accounts of his position on mukhtar exist but he never endorsed his rebellion
zayn ul abideen even helped the family of marwan escape medina during uprising of Harra ( Quraishi kinship !) and children of Marwan never bothered Hussaini Hashimites since until Imam Zayd b Ali rose in rebellion. Probably some sort of a Entente between hasimite and Marwanids.Note by this time relations between Marwanids and Sufyanids ( clan of muawiyah) were at an all time low

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

yes for sure many of those with clearly nawasib credentials are also highly regarded in sunni rijal.Not to mention several of those who opposed abu bakr's r.a govt during RIddah wars but later "returned" to islam.

Sunni islam as it evolved in 2nd hijrah is a religion of compromise.It tried to recouncile all the warring factions of the salaf

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Re: Hur, Ibn-e-Zubair and Theory of relativity

Bandar kiya jane adrak ka maza!

u view everythng frm ur own polluted vision & call Imam Zainul Abideen AS giving refuge to that lanati ibn son of lanati-and Rasool Allah cursed his father and expelled him- as some sort of contract..........at Hudaybia it was ur type of ilk who doubted the Prophet SAWW & ascribed his signing a treaty to fear and weakness..........it reflects person's level thinking & personality.......

code_red.....it is ur aqeedah that will ultimately dictate how u wish to view the histoy.................in the first thread u started a comparision b/w Imam Hussain (as) and son of Zubayr.................and now in this thread u started a comparision b/w Hurr and son of Zubayr..................what exactly is it tht u r looking for my brother?.........