MiniMe:
Assuming what you say is true, then people certainly have a legitimate right to believe something is terribly wrong with religious leaders and their followers being so cowed that they cannot even say that it is against Islam to kidnap and kill little children and their mothers attending school.
Whatever the politics of the situation, let us pray for the safety of the children and a peaceful resolution to the situation.
chechen leadership has denied responsibility in this act. so these acts are not part of the official chechen war. al qaeda affiliated group took responsibility for plane bombings, subway station and could as well take it for this too...so we could be dealing with some extremists groups aligned with AQ and not chechen jihad...as you very well know..or dont..the leader of arab mujahids in chechnya ibn ul khattab denied he was part of AQ or even shared the idealogy of OBL...AQ has a tendency of being extremists and i abhor most of their operations as illegal in islam. open your eyes and ears before swallowing the dog vomit the western media spurns out. think of the possibility that not all jihadi groups represent islam but that dont mean that ALL jihadi groups dont represent islam
"think of the possibility that not all jihadi groups represent islam but that dont mean that ALL jihadi groups dont represent islam"
I am sure the kids in the school will be comforted by Clintonesqe parsing of words. Just don't get, if "Jihadi" groups do not do what they do for Islam, and under the guidance of Islam, then why are they called "Jihadi's"? Wouldn't they just be "killers"?
I have not seen a single protest in the West of concerned Muslims telling their brothers to stop the violence. Al-Jazeera would cover it! and certainly Islam allows dissent correct?
The point is, that a lot of warped minds are doing some quick calculus that if they attack the US the US will stop supporting Israel. If they attack Israeli citizens, then perhaps the government will change course. If they kill a hundred Spanish commuters the Spanish government will change course. Kidnap two journalists and French kids can wear headscarves. Murder 12 Nepalese and maybe Nepal will change it's policy. Take a bunch of children hostage and perhaps the Russians will release rebels.
There is some cold logic here, and the catch is, that the act must be positively horrific for it to make the news, and shock the intended target. The only people who can really stop these people are other Muslims. Perhaps not those living in the West, but Muslims none the less. When enough Mosques are burning in Nepal, and other corners of the world, only then will Muslims reign in their own?
What will the world think at a school full of dead little kids murdered by these idiots? What possible rational is there? What will your personal response be? This is not an "accident", not "collateral damage", it is cold blooded attempt to hold children hostage and kill them if need be to achieve a political aim. A new low for the world.
yeah, they are killers if they do not represent islam.
but what can we do? after all the just fight is somehow overshadowed by some extremists. chechen war used to be the most cleanest from muslim side..noone but russian soldiers or chechen police were killed. but that changed after so many years of seeing their actions go in vain and hundreds of thousands of civillians killed they somehow adapted extremist idealogy. can i blame them for that? yes, islam forbids women or children or old men as targets. but do i understand it? yeah. because the war seems unwinnable in logical terms so they decide to up the scale. world is sick and i do not condone, agree or support any such actions, but what can we do ? nothing really until the root causes go away. russians killed 300,000 chechen, majoritry of them civillians, so chechens fight back now..using means that are both islamic, and unislamic...bad/desperate people are on both sides of the table.
why is that russian mass murder of 300,000 chechens is called "disperportionate use of force" or "collatoral damage" or what ever other words there are to justify civillians deaths while chechen attacks are terrorism even if they kill russian soldiers. death of women,children and oldmen should be called terrorism no matter who commits it.
and it is bs that russian soldiers do not "deliberately" target civillians. 300,000 civillian deaths are not mere accident. it must be systematic operation and or total lack of care when bombing entire cities from thousands of feet in the air. in either way, the russian actions can not be justified and are terrorism. until world can not come to grips with this fact, you will never see unified muslim response against barbaric acts like these because we too are reminded of our children, sisters, mothers and fathers who were lost due to state sponsored terrorism and when deaths of our children, sisters, mothers are not accepted as such, but rather called "collateral damage" or justified in some other way, we stop from gonig all the way in condemning these actions. thats a reality and no point in denying it.
MOSCOW, Sept 1 (Reuters) - Chechen separatists denied involvement in a school hostage drama in southern Russia on Wednesday and a bomb attack in Moscow the previous day.
But Akhmed Zakayev, UK-based envoy of rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov, could not rule out the possibility Chechens could have been driven to such an act out of “despair” over Russian policy in their region.
At least nine people were killed and more than 50 injured late on Tuesday when a suicide bomber set off an explosion in busy central Moscow.
On Wednesday morning an armed gang attacked a school in the province of North Ossetia near Chechnya and took up to 400 children and parents hostage.
“No such actions have been sanctioned or agreed to in any way,” Zakayev told Reuters by telephone from London.
Chechen rebels, battling for a decade against Russian rule, are widely thought to have been behind a series of deadly attacks in Russia in the past few weeks.
“If it does turn out that they are Chechens and they make demands connected to the situation in Chechnya, then responsibility lies doubly with the authorities,” Zakayev said.
“As long as there is no prospect for peaceful resolution, there are a great many people in Chechnya who may be driven by despair to such acts,” he added.
The rebel web site kavkazcenter.com, which represents more radical separatist groups, including one headed by Russia’s most wanted rebel Shamil Basayev, also denied involvement and blamed the attacks on Moscow’s tough policy in Chechnya.
“There is no excuse for these inhumane actions, as there is no excuse for 42,000 Chechen schoolchildren killed by the Russian military under orders from the Kremlin and personally (Russian President Vladimir) Putin,” said a statement posted on the site
i believe that the chechen leadership has made it clear that it was not their men who conducted those actions. so these could be either lone gangs of people from chechnya who did it and the chechen mujahids bear no responsibility for their actions, or it was some AQ operation, in both cases chechen mujahids have been cleared of it , inshallah.
even if we use logic, why would they deny it if they conducted it? so these men are not behind these actions but some unknown force.
i hope it clears up some misconceptions.
MOSCOW, Sept 1 (Reuters) - Chechen separatists denied involvement in a school hostage drama in southern Russia on Wednesday and a bomb attack in Moscow the previous day.
But Akhmed Zakayev, UK-based envoy of rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov, could not rule out the possibility Chechens could have been driven to such an act out of “despair” over Russian policy in their region.
At least nine people were killed and more than 50 injured late on Tuesday when a suicide bomber set off an explosion in busy central Moscow.
On Wednesday morning an armed gang attacked a school in the province of North Ossetia near Chechnya and took up to 400 children and parents hostage.
“No such actions have been sanctioned or agreed to in any way,” Zakayev told Reuters by telephone from London.
Chechen rebels, battling for a decade against Russian rule, are widely thought to have been behind a series of deadly attacks in Russia in the past few weeks.
“If it does turn out that they are Chechens and they make demands connected to the situation in Chechnya, then responsibility lies doubly with the authorities,” Zakayev said.
“As long as there is no prospect for peaceful resolution, there are a great many people in Chechnya who may be driven by despair to such acts,” he added.
The rebel web site kavkazcenter.com, which represents more radical separatist groups, including one headed by Russia’s most wanted rebel Shamil Basayev, also denied involvement and blamed the attacks on Moscow’s tough policy in Chechnya.
“There is no excuse for these inhumane actions, as there is no excuse for 42,000 Chechen schoolchildren killed by the Russian military under orders from the Kremlin and personally (Russian President Vladimir) Putin,” said a statement posted on the site
i believe that the chechen leadership has made it clear that it was not their men who conducted those actions. so these could be either lone gangs of people from chechnya who did it and the chechen mujahids bear no responsibility for their actions, or it was some AQ operation, in both cases chechen mujahids have been cleared of it , inshallah.
even if we use logic, why would they deny it if they conducted it? so these men are not behind these actions but some unknown force.
i hope it clears up some misconceptions.
“can i blame them for that? yes, islam forbids women or children or old men as targets. but do i understand it? yeah.”
Stop understanding, and start being outraged for the future of Islam.
Blah, blah, blah, state sponsored terrorism, deaths on both sides, probably not Chechans anyway, blah, blah, blah. The apologist attitude must end. Tell that to the Nepalese who are burning your Mosques…
The point is, that this is not about Chechnya, nor Palestine, nor Spain or Bali. This movement to Ultra-Violence is world-wide. Lussi has the balls to bring up Pat Roberston and Jerry Falwell. Last I heard they had not beheaded any Muslims! There is a pervasive feeling among violent Muslims that ANYTHING is fair game if you are in a holy Jihad. As long as they are Muslims, the rest of the Muslim world mutters a few lame excuses and then launches into a tirade about how they are victims. As if that were any justification for the horrible things we have witnessed.
The news reports from Al-Jazeera are carrying the demands of the child kidnappers:
“The hostage-takers have called for the release of fighters imprisoned in neighbouring Ingushetia, Interfax news agency reported.”
While the Guardian was a little more frank:
“One report claimed that the gang has demanded Russia pull out of Chechnya and release fighters seized in the neighbouring province of Ingushetia during a huge rebel raid on the region in June.”
Of course Al-Jazeera (see earlier link) makes it plain that the captors are Muslims:
“Earlier, 15 pupils were released after regional Muslim leader Mufti Ruslan Valgatov entered the school to negotiate with the armed group”
While the kidnapped children who probably remain are Christians:
“Local authorities said the kidnappers who seized the school in North Ossetia - a predominantly Christian region with a small Muslim community - carried guns and were wrapped in bomb belts.”
Putin will undoubtedly escalate the Clash of the Civilizations in the coming weeks…
As the famous Indian saying goes: "The brain deserts you when the end is near". I am not surprised and stopped bothering, just sitting back and watch history unfold.
**"If it does turn out that they are Chechens and they make demands connected to the situation in Chechnya, then responsibility lies doubly with the authorities," Zakayev said.
"As long as there is no prospect for peaceful resolution, there are a great many people in Chechnya who may be driven by despair to such acts," he added.**
Give me a break. The responsibility always lies elsewhere, doesn't it? If advocates/allies/sympathizers of these groups can't bring themselves to condemn these actions then I am afraid we are going to see more of a backlash like we are seeing in Nepal.
Can you imagine the outrage that would be expressed if the US rounded up about 500 little Muslim children and their mothers and threatened to kill 50 of them for every American that some Islamic terrorist killed. I doubt there would be much "understanding" of why we did it.
"Blah, blah, blah, state sponsored terrorism, deaths on both sides, probably not Chechans anyway, blah, blah, blah. The apologist attitude must end. Tell that to the Nepalese who are burning your Mosques...."
hmm...i dont get your point. i condemn the terrorist act in north ossetia, and i get this line in return . what do you guys want after all? yes i feel for those 300 children, but who the hell feels for our children? who the hell feels for our sisters? who the hell feels for hundreds of thousands of muslims who have died innocently by the state sponsored terrorists? if telling the truth is apologetic, then i am apologetic.
if you dont want to listen to reasons why young men and women who have their entire lives go live would risk death for some non tangiable results or non materalistic gains then its fine, continue on live in fear and fighting the endless war on terror even which your president admitted that it cant be won. i dont wish you harm and i only intend to advice, but that attitude will get you no where. but continue on who am i to advice any one.
uh oh hypocrite alert! mr.seminole now thinks that because of what’s going it’s ok to ransack a local mosque. He now can “justify” and “understand” mugging and beating up some innocent muslims in a mosque. Right on bro :k:
Truly sad... call them Jihadis or killers or barbarians it is plain wrong and down right shameful and outrageous ... kids have always suffered in all wars and conflicts, may it be genocide or falling bombs from the skies or cruise missiles flying from the marvelous subs and ships or suicide bombers riding on bikes or kidnappers, result is suffering and dead children who have no say, opinion or bias in all this chaos. Sometimes it makes you wonder what sets us apart from animals.
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Can you imagine the outrage that would be expressed if the US rounded up about 500 little Muslim children and their mothers and threatened to kill 50 of them for every American that some Islamic terrorist killed. I doubt there would be much "understanding" of why we did it.
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Strange comparison.
Spetznaz troops are assaulting the school.
30 hostages rescued, about 2 adults, 10 kids, reported to be wounded and covered in blood.
Part of the school roof has collapsed.
There are anywhere between 500 and 1500 adults and children now estimated to be inside.
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ibn ul khattab denied he was part of AQ or even shared the idealogy of OBL
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khattab said that? where did he say that? proof pls. its funny statement since khattab said usamah was a good sheikh to him and the mujahids. for now aslaan one of the ameers has cleard himself of the hostage takin incident
Absolutely tragic. Nothing justifies taking innocent children hostage. God help this world.
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*Originally posted by Ansaaree: *
khattab said that? where did he say that? proof pls. its funny statement since khattab said usamah was a good sheikh to him and the mujahids.
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True, but Khattab said that regarding his time in Afghanistan. During that time, the whole world outside of the Communist bloc also thought that Bin Ladin was one of the Very Good Guys, and that he was a truly exceptional muslim during the Afghan Resistance is without doubt.
But there is no evidence that Khattab was in any way involved with Bin Ladin since the early 90s - they parted ways when Bin ladin still held very orthodox ideas, just as Bin ladin began falling under the influence of Ayman Al-Zwahiri.
Khattab remained in Afghanistan after the Resistance ended, whereas bin ladin went to Saudi Arabia and the Sudan. By the time Bin Ladin moved back to Afghanistan, Khattab had moved to Chechnya.
In short, during the time that Khattab knew Bin Ladin personally, I don't think you would find a single Muslim willing to speak ill of him at all. He was a pious Mujahideen leader and little more than that; that was the contect in which Khattab commented on Bin Ladin.
Over a hundred reportly found dead inside.