Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)

Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)

Brother thanks. Lakin bhai, kiya kiya jaye? These days we have so-called Ulema that when talk about Quran, Hadith and Islam, it can amaze anyone. Sometime they deny so obvious messages in Quran and hadith, and misguide people who consider them GOD and their words as God words, that one can do nothing but keep quite.

Now on another topic in this same forum, people are arguing on the issue and some are insisting on calling a woman in Islamabad anything they like, on basis that is completely against Quran, hadith and sunnah. These people do not believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty. [Actually, they themselves are guilty of denying words of Allah, still they feel free to judge others and use force or abusive languages to harass others]

I have already showed a lot what is there in Quran and hadith in clear terms. Hence there is no point on arguing again with those that have their own beliefs and are no better than Iblis himself. They are serving their God and fulfilling duty towards the God they believe.

I brought this thread alive so that I can put a bit more relevant hadith in here. Hadith that clearly shows that in Islam, not only accusation without 4 eye witnesses render punishment to accuser, but forensic evidences (like DNA or other evidences) are also invalid when determining Zina, hence no tazir for such cases.

Let me show something crystal clear from hadith that I have not mentioned earlier. Please just try to read hadith carefully and try to understand. It is an inportant hadith on the subject. Anyhow, please try to understand the sequence mentioned in this hadith too, as that is important.

Sequence is important, as during the sequence, wahi came, that exempted requirement of 4 witnesses from husband accusing their wife [these ayahs are 24:6-9 and is known as ayah of Laan], though ayah did not changed anything, except husband is saved from punishment if he accuses his wife, that is all (because wife still have choice to either accept the accusation or deny that). I am putting that sequence down.

**According to the hadith: **A man (Hilal bin Umaiya) came to Prophet (SAW) and told Prophet (SAW) that his wife has done adultery with another man, ‘Sharik bin Sahma’. (Hilal was eye witness of that and he mentioned that to Prophet (SAW)).

Just imagine, what Prophet (SAW) said to the person (Hilal)?

Prophet (SAW) did not say (as present day so-called ulema like to say) that, OH MY GOD, yea tou tumhari gairaat ka sawaal hay. Your wife has done adultery? You should kill your wife, if you won’t kill your wife, you are baighairat [actually, it is these so-called Ulema who are baighairat, and misguide Muslims]. Let see, what Prophet (SAW) said?

**The Prophet said (to Hilal): “Either you bring forth a proof (four witnesses) or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back.” **(Words from hadith)

In other words, bring 4 witnesses as proof or be prepared to get lashes on your back (that is according to ayah 24:4). No hanky panky, no such thing that well if you have seen or you believe, it must be true. Remember, the woman was his wife and this man was not only accusing, he was telling that he saw her doing adultery, and was giving the name of person she did adultery.

Still, just look at the judgment of Prophet (SAW). No four witnesses? No accusation allowed, even from husband who is eye witness, and if there is accusation, accuser gets punished according to surah Noor (24) ayah 4. [Actually, in such situation, according to Islam, only thing that husband can justly do, is divorce the wife and keep quite, thats all]

Notice: Hilal bin Umaiya saw his wife doing adultery (as he claims in hadith) still him telling Prophet (SAW) was considered as accusation that demands 4 witnesses and if not provided, then punishment according to ayah 24:4.

Hilal must have got into shock. Thus, he asked Prophet (SAW) in clear words: **Hilal said, “O Allah’s Apostle! If anyone of us saw a man over his wife, would he go to seek after witnesses?” **In other words, he saw ‘Sharik bin Shama’ over his wife and was witness to adultery, thus he questioned, that if that happens, what husband should do, go to seek witnesses?

What was the reply of Prophet (SAW)? Reply must be very shocking for some so called Ulema of today, as for them, their own beliefs, reputations, and assumptions are undeniable evidence.

The Prophet kept on saying: “Either you bring forth the witnesses or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back.”(Words from hadith)

Just imagine, no excuses even when someone saw his wife doing adultery with his own eyes, still one cannot accuse her of adultery. If he accuses her of adultery, he would need four witnesses or would get punished according to ayah 24:4.

Considering people I came across in life, these so-called misguided Ulema and their chailay, some can even be found on this forum: If instead of ‘Hilal bin Umaiya’, it was these people, they would have said to Prophet (SAW) that, Prophet (SAW) what the hell you are trying to teach us? We are not baighirat? Are you teaching us baighairatee? We don’t care. Our religion of kufur was better. We are reverting to our Quraish belief of kufur and going home to kill that wife who played with our ghairat.

Thus, what one could say to these people who are accusing a woman in Islamabad, when there are no 4 eye witnesses that saw her doing adultery but judging that woman on reputation? Are these accusers Muslim? Do they really believe on Allah, Prophet (SAW) and Quran? Do they really care what Islam says? According to command of Allah, practice of Prophet (SAW) and what is mentioned in hadith, do they deserve punishment according to ayah 24:4 or not?

Well, this man, ‘Hilal bin Umaiya’ was saved from punishment, as ayahs came from Allah, that applies to accusation by Husband (ayah is 24: 6-9 and is known as ayah of Laan), though wife does not get punished from that ayah, still husband get saved from punishment.

You will notice further in the hadith that, Husband was proven right by events that followed, that is because a child was born and it was obvious from the looks that the child was of ‘Sharik bin Sahma’. Prophet (SAW) also approved that it could be evidence that she did adultery (actually, doubt was not there in the first place that she did adultery, the reason prophet (SAW) asked for four witnesses or get punished, was because that is command of Allah in Quran).

Here in hadith Prophet (SAW) said about proving of adultery due to child birth and his resemblance (you can say, equivalent of today’s DNA evidence).

The Prophet then said: “Watch her; if she delivers a black-eyed child with big hips and fat shins then it is Sharik bin Sahma’s child.” (Words from hadith)

Still, when adultery was proven, what Prophet (SAW) said and did? He admitted that she must have done adultery, still practically did simply nothing, why? Because, Allah has already settled such cases in Quran, with command of Allah, that to accuse someone and punish, four eye witnesses is needed to confirm that she did adultery, or Zani confesses four times (from hadith).

[Actually, this principle of confession is very important in Islam. Today there is habit of doing takfeer regardless of a person confession, not realising that when a person confesses that he is Muslim, takfeer becomes haram and anyone doing takfeer, is kafir himself]. Here is what Prophet (SAW) said when it was proven from resemblance of child that she did adultery (one can consider it forensic evidence or DNA test of that time):

Later she delivered a child of that description. **So the Prophet said: “If the case was not settled by Allah’s Law, I would punish her severely.” **(Words from hadith)

**Here is hadith: **Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 60, Number 271:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:** Hilal bin Umaiya accused his wife of committing illegal sexual intercourse with Sharik bin Sahma’ and filed the case before the Prophet. The Prophet said (to Hilal), “Either you bring forth a proof (four witnesses) or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back.”** Hilal said, “O Allah’s Apostle! If anyone of us saw a man over his wife, would he go to seek after witnesses?” The Prophet kept on saying, “Either you bring forth the witnesses or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back.” Hilal then said, “By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I am telling the truth and Allah will reveal to you what will save my back from legal punishment.” Then Gabriel came down and revealed to him:–

'As for those who accuse their wives…’ (24.6-9) The Prophet recited it till he reached: ‘… (her accuser) is telling the truth.’ Then the Prophet left and sent for the woman, and Hilal went (and brought) her and then took the oaths (confirming the claim). The Prophet was saying, “Allah knows that one of you is a liar, so will any of you repent?” Then the woman got up and took the oaths and when she was going to take the fifth one, the people stopped her and said, “It (the fifth oath) will definitely bring Allah’s curse on you (if you are guilty).” So she hesitated and recoiled (from taking the oath) so much that we thought that she would withdraw her denial. But then she said, "I will not dishonor my family all through these days," and carried on (the process of taking oaths).

The Prophet then said, “Watch her; if she delivers a black-eyed child with big hips and fat shins then it is Sharik bin Sahma’s child.” Later she delivered a child of that description. **So the Prophet said: “If the case was not settled by Allah’s Law, I would punish her severely.” **

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Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)

Well, present a single such case from the past to support your above lie. And if you fail to give me a single case in this regard, it will prove you and your lobby consist of Liars.

Really? lol

Your ‘intellectual analysis’ gives me a laugh, it seems you were not in your senses when you typed this stupid stuff.
You keep on repeating like parrots same things which have already been refuted before, but believing you have a bad memory, let me repeat again for your sake that

The verse 24:2 doesn’t use the word Zina with Agreement rather it uses words Zaani and Zaaniyah, obviously in Adultery or Fornication both Zaani and Zaaniyah exist and in rape case either a Zaani or a Zaaniyah exists (in rare cases females commit rape).

If you can't find me the word of Zina with Agreement in the verse 24:2 in this life then try to get another life.

It is not a good idea to get involved into hadiths now as you are a Sunnah Rejector and though hadiths prove our point, we still inshaAllah can prove our point using Quran only.

Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)

binAadam:

You straight away accused me that I lied, still asked to support my statement. Your accusation ‘of me lying’ means that you know each and every case that happened in Pakistan and that you know them so well that what I mentioned, you are certain that I am lying. Obviously, if you do not know than your statement is absurd and your accusation is based on you habit of accusing without any knowledge. Since I know that such cases exists; it is obvious that you are an intentional liar, boaster, and baseless accuser. Few such cases:

Case one:(Mina v. State, 1983 P.L.D. Fed. Shariat Ct 183). Her child was born in prison (Mehdi 1990, 25).**

**Another similar case:(Bibi v. State, 1985 P.L.D. Fed. Shariat Ct. 120).5.

Site with reference of above cases:
http://www.crescentlife.com/articles…/rape_laws.htm

OK wise guy, if in Arabic, ‘Al-Zania wa Al-Zani’ does not mean ‘The Adulteress and The Adulterer’, or that ‘wa’ does not mean ‘and’ than what does it mean? Well, well, do I have to wait for your reply? Here it is from your own big mouth. This is what you wrote below :). Do you take Nuswar when writing? LOL.

My analysis can not make anyone laugh unless person in question is retard, as what I wrote is what is there in Quran and is quite logical and I know many that agree with me. It is your understanding that is ridiculous, though it does not gives me laugh, it concerns me that misguided, deceptive, and liars, interfere with teaching of Islam.

You know what? You are repeating like parrot without using your own intelligence. You have no upper chamber to think. You read Taqi Usmani and have blind faith on his misguided explanation. Nothing can change that. Nothing can change anyone with blind faith, however misguided that faith be.

I know that you won’t understand, though for those that could. The ayah uses the word ‘The Adulterer AND The Adulteress’. Ayah does not use the word ‘Adulterer OR Adulteress’ or even ‘Adulterers AND Adulteresses’. Now from that, to me it is obvious that ayah is talking about an act (Zina) where both ‘The Adulterer AND The Adulteress’ are equally involved and guilty. That can only happen when both are in agreement of Zina.

Example:
If I say that punish ‘the boy and the girl’ who fight: It would mean I consider both the boy and the girl equally guilty of fight, and should get punished.

If I say that punish ‘the boy or the girl’ that fight: It would mean I consider the boy, the girl, or both could be guilty (any possibility), and want that only guilty is punished.

If I say that punish ‘boys and girls’ who fights: It would be a general statement and would mean that to punish any boy or any girl that fights and are guilty.

The way you argue is like you are on drugs and do not know what you are uttering. If I use your method of argument, I can also ask you in similar fashion. For instance: Show me anywhere in ayah 24:2 where it is written ‘Zina-bil-Jabr’ (Zina by force) or even word jabr (force)? If you cannot find me the word ‘Jabr’ in the verse 24:2 in this life then you try to get another life for yourself, OK.

Who told you that I am Sunnah Rejector? Anyone who assumed or told you that I am Sunnah Rejector cannot be a Muslim. Be assured that he/she is a retard and Kafir.

Anyhow, let me do a simple reality check on you. Let see if you are a Muslim or what. Do not run away from this test, as if you will run away and avoid the test, it would only mean that you are not Muslim. This test would show that if you believe on Quran, Hadith, as well as Sunnah of Prophet (SAW) or reject them, because this test has all three elements built into it. Let all read your answer or see that you gave the answer or avoided. Let all decide your reality themselves. No need for anyone to comment, but they would know.

Question: Suppose you are judge and have authority to punish. Now tell me that if someone comes to you and tell you that a certain woman is adulteress, and he saw her doing adultery with his own eyes. What would you say to that person?

[For hint: Here is what Prophet (SAW) said to the person (Hilal bin Umaiya):
Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 60, Number 271: The Prophet said (to Hilal), “Either you bring forth a proof (four witnesses) or you will receive the legal punishment (lashes) on your back.”

The test would show: You accept Quran (ayah 24:4) the way Prophet (SAW) believed. You accept Sunnah and follow the judgement of Prophet (SAW). You believe on Hadiths as mentioned in Bukhari regarding this judgment. [There is nothing in this hadith that is illogical or against Quran; that anyone can doubt this hadith)]

Further: I am telling you again as I told you before. I am not interested to discuss or argue with those who are illogical, Quran-rejecter, Hadith-rejecter, Sunnah-rejecter, accuser, abuser, go low in discussion and start calling names, one whose sole purpose is to misguide others regarding Islam and those who work for Shaitan. Hence do not expect that I would keep answering your illogical, abusive, and garbage posts :).

If you ever want to discuss anything, be logical, learn to respect those you discuss, accept truth, do not have pre conceived beliefs, and do not lie, then only one can discuss. I am sure that no one would like to discuss anything with people who are illogical, do not respect others they discuss, are not willing to accept truth at all cost, have preconceived beliefs and discuss with closed mind expecting others to accept them however ridiculous their beliefs, and lie when discussing. These types of people do not discuss, but can only irritate others.

Anyone can be wrong and everyone learn from others. Being misguided is not sin but being ignorant and arrogant, not willing to learn, become illogical in discussion, and become abusive to whom one discussing is. What you say is what you are. A Kafir when confess that he accepted Islam, he becomes Muslim and no one can cut his heart to see if he believes or not. Same way, a declared Muslim has to confess that he is not Muslim to be called Kafir. One confession brings a person into Islam and another takes him out of Islam. Similarly there are some sins Allah has made it dependent on confession (Zina without 4 witnesses is such sin). Heart thing, only Allah can judge. That is why those who do takfeer are Kafir and those who accuse others without required witnesses are evil transgressor.

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Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)

Discuss with respect for each other please!

Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)

I had confronted your bogus cases before.

Bin Adam is right that no women has ever been accused of adultery is she fails to prduce 4 witnesses. Prime examples being Dr Shazia Case and Mukhtaran Mai case. Mukhtaran Mai case was tried under Hudood Law and perpetrators punished without 4 witnesses. Dr Shazia case never took off thanks to your beloved leader.

Present the details of teh two cases. Most likely these are cases were charges were labelled against these women for adultery on being foudn pregnant and they then took rape as plea.

Re: Hudood Ordinance Amended!!! (Merged)

lol

You won’t change man, you don’t give any example of such a case which I demanded instead you are above giving reference from the ‘personal opinion’ of Asifa Quraishi and the Western media.
Funny that Asifa Quraishi or her Western NGO knows the truth about these victim ladies, they know who the culprit is as if they have some magical qualification to judge those cases which courts can’t.
Give me the court proceedings man, don’t give me made up stories without any evidence.

Secondly, show me the clause of former Hudood Laws which says that the victim of rape has to provide 4 eye witnesses and if she fails she has to face adultery charges by the law (of Hudood). Well you can’t, you should really get a life.

Thirdly, your Western Chachay in this website talk about Police crimes; Police works under Secular Laws and not Hudood Laws, so ask your Western Mamas to uproot Brutal Secular Laws from Pakistan so as to help our women from Police Crimes. You seculars blindly and stupidly try to find faults with Hudood Laws and don’t think you are making an ass of yourselves.

And lastly, don’t give me pathetic examples which are laughable; either prove that the verse 24:2 has the word Zina with consent or Zina by force or just shut up. If you can’t find such a word or term in the verse 24:2 but you read only the word Zaani and Zaaniyah then know that this is really an absolute term referring to both Zina with consent and Zina by force.