Re: Huddod Ordinance
So according to Roadrunner, the pregnant mother should be stoned to death since she can’t prove that it was rape. Thas Pakistani justice for ya. Let’s not forget the case of Aisha Parveen.. (i think that was her name), she was kidnapped, sold into prostitution, ran away, and now the police are forcing her to go back to her pimp coz he said he was her husband.
Long live Pakistan 
Re: Huddod Ordinance
We should not be content until the Hudood Ordinance is either repealed or changed from what it is now. And I hope after this process, the Blasphemy Law is looked at. We have a long way to go, but the first baby steps are encouraging if slow.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
What part do you not get? Did you manage to hold your concentration long enough to read past the first sentence of my post?
I’ll repeat it, though I know you wont read it.
HADD (DEATH) PUNISHMENTS ARE ONLY APPLICABLE TO PUBLIC FORNICATORY EVENTS WHEN 4 WITNESSES ARE PRESENT. In the case of a pregnant mother, where are the witnesses? So how can a Hadd punishment be invoked? Try reading & researching before you write,
However, in August 2002, the Federal Islamic Court acquitted her, ruling that pregnancy was no proof of adultery.
**http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=38641&SelectRegion=Central_Asia&SelectCountry=PAKISTAN **
Also, I am not even for the adultery or Hadd laws, which I prefer to be scrapped, but am not so narrow minded or bigotted to speak for the Pakistani people - if they want an adultery law, it’s their choice and I can understand it.
Also, being sold into prostitution is a much more widespread practise in India, so how does this have to do with Pakistani law specifically.
Sa1eem, I’ll come back to your post soon..
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Seems some people could not understand the real problem and concerned issues regarding Hudud Ordinance. Problem is not:
Actually, that is the real problem and one of the main issues (along with other issues):
Note from the site below (zara sonchyea)
http://www.geo.tv/zs/ads/20_e.htm
Issue 8: No rapist has, till now, ever been given hudd punishment. This is because the court have yet to find a rape case that can be proved by four, pious, honest and upright witnesses. The requirement of four witnesses is stated in the Quran for Zina (not Zina-bil-Jaber) …
So, it is not only about public rape but the above statement (made by roodrunner) is true regarding all rapes, as none was hudud ordinance case. It is obvious, as none of the girls that were raped could find four adult pious upright witnesses to help them prove (in shariet court) that she was raped and that she did not do adultery. Resulting in rapist criminals going free and girls that got raped going to gallows. [That is one of the main problem of Hudud Ordinance].
[As I wrote in another thread:
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?p=4217937#post4217937
In my mail #23: That rape case without witnesses under hudud ordinance means that there is no rape case.]
If there would have been no requirement of four witnesses, using other evidences, court could have punished rapist. Because of hudud ordinance, rape case also requires four witnesses and as raped girls could not find four witnesses, rapists go free and raped gets to prison on charges of adultery (girls own confession of rape is taken as sex outside marriage).
Sometime, using Tazir, a judge might give punishment to rapist and let the girl go, but that is not possible if rapists lawyer can fight the case, arguing that under the hudud ordinance, rape is not proven (as it needs 4 witnesses). Thus, due to this farce requirement of four witnesses in rape cases, injustice becomes norm (rapist are encouraged while raped are punished).
Note: Only an idiot rapist would rape in front of four adult pious male upright witnesses. So, because of this requirement of four witnesses ‘clause 8’ of ‘Zara sonchyea’ also mentions], no rapist were punished under hudud ordinance and resulting in all rape girls getting booked in case of adultery.
As for the second part of the statement by roadrunner:
This is nice news :). I think that all Shariet court judges should get a lecture from our hudud ordinance expert ‘roadrunner’ and Jang group should be told that they are mistaken (and thus do not misguide their readers) because our hudud ordinance expert (roadrunner) says that this is not the case. Is it not sad that Jang group could not understand ‘hudud ordinance’ what Roadrunner knows, and thus are misguiding their readers by taking such a campaign?
Surprisingly, none of the supporters of hudud ordinance that came in Geo program were knowledgeable enough like our brother ‘roadrunner’ to mention that. Now brother, you should write to Jang too and tell them that their ‘issue 4’ , ‘issue 7’, issue 8, issue 9, rather all issues are farce because if a girl cannot prove that she is raped (by providing 4 adult pious male upright witnesses), still under hudud ordinance she is not booked for adultery.
[Note: Real adultery cases can never come to Hudud ordinance as that also requires four adult male pious upright witnesses and no one that does adultery would do that in front of them four witnesses. Since adultery happens with consent, obviously no one would bring case in court (as happens in rape). Thus, hudud ordinance plays no real role in adultery cases. It only affects rape cases where hudud ordinance find excuses to convert rape cases into adultery cases, thus victimizing those that are already victimized (raped women) and help those who are victimizer (rapists)].
For references of issues regarding Hudud ordinance:
http://www.geo.tv/zs/ads/20_e.htm
Issue 4: pregnancy is seen as Zina unless the women can prove that, in fact, Zina-bil-Jabr has been committed against her. This is especially true in cases of unmarried pregnant women.
[Note phrase ‘unmarried pregnant women’ as under hudud ordinance, if these raped women could not bring four witnesses of rape, their cases get converted to adultery cases].
Issue 7: A women who claims to have been raped, but cannot provide sufficient evidence required by the Hudud Ordinance, can be accused of having accepted committing the act of Zina (Adultery) and, therefore, astonishingly, a victim of rape crime can be treated as a Zina offender.
Roadrunner statement:
Compare it with statement of ‘roadrunner’. Actually, its not just public rape cases but all rape cases where raped victim could not find four witnesses (as always the case), ends of as adultery case. Actually, I prefer death sentence for rapist, so that is no problem if Hudud ordinance was doing that. Problem is not death sentences of rapist (that Hudud ordinance protects), but problem is death sentences or imprisonment of raped (that Hudud ordinance victimizes).
[Note: I used the word fornication instead of rape as we are talking about rape and regardless, I believe that roadrunner also means rape. As for fornication (that is sex-with-consent by unmarried), I do not think that anyone in right mind would do fornication in public, especially in Pakistan]
Issue 8: No rapist has, till now, ever been given hudd punishment. This is because the court have yet to find a rape case that can be proved by four, pious, honest and upright witnesses. The requirement of four witnesses is stated in the Quran for Zina (not Zina-bil-Jaber) …
‘Za’faran Bibi’ case mentioned in this article (last paragraph):
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=38641&SelectRegion=Central_Asia&SelectCountry=PAKISTAN
As mentioned in above article, it is obvious that ‘Za’faran Bibi’ got death sentences due to Hudud ordinance even though her case was rape case. Nevertheless, exception happened that judges used their discretion to save her.
Normally, women stay in prison (and nothing happens) but since ‘Za’faran Bibi’ was sentenced to death by district court judges, upper court judges acted. This happens because most judges (especially upper court experienced judges) understand that hudud ordinance requirement of 4 witnesses in rape cases is farce requirement, but could not do much and thus try to provided relief to the women, using their discretion.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
How do you conclude that load of semi literate garbage from the geoTV quote?
**The quote is “This is because the court have yet to find a rape case that can be proved by four, pious, honest and upright witnesses.” **
This means that in order to secure the HADD punishment, 4 witnesses are required, which needs 4 pious witnesses - something which the Mai case supposedly had, but then there was an appeal. This was because it was a public rape case, therefore witnesses were present, and so Hadd could be applied. When it is not a public rape case, then Tazir evidence and punishment, such as DNA evidence, evidence from women are all acceptable. What you are saying is the stupidest thing I’ve heard in a long time.
**
This quote is just absurd, and shows you really dont have much common sense. Rape cases where there are no witnesses present can be prosecuted and given a Tazir sentence without 4 witnesses.
The following is a direct quote from the Hudood Ordinance.
(1)Subject to the provisions of section 7, whoever commits zina or zina-bil-jabr which is not liable to hadd, or for which proof in either of the forms mentioned in section 8 is not available and the punishment of qazf liable to hadd has not been awarded to the complainant, or for which hadd may not be enforced under this Ordinance, **shall be liable to tazir. **
If you read what it says, it quite clearly states that when 4 witnesses (section 8) are not present, but the proof shows that the accused is guilty (through DNA evidence, etc), then Tazir will be carried out. Get an interpretor to read it for you, if you do not understand.
Get it through your head..4 WITNESSES ARE ONLT REQUIRED FOR PUBLIC RAPE CASES WHEN HADD PUNISHMENT CAN BE APPLIED..
Only an idiot would rape is what you should have written.
Quote me where Jang says what you say, then I can show you some proper references.
Get it through your head if you can..that they were talking about the Hadd punishment and the Hadd evidence requirements.
I’m actually against the adultery law if you read what I wrote.
Are you really this stupid? Would you not think that some husbands would, if they could, want to bring an adultery case against a wife, who he had evidence for that she had been unfaithful? ..or the other way round?
That might be from the old Hudood Ordinace, but it’s not from current Pakistani Law. Read up about it if you can, or you must be doubting IRIN news.
**However, in August 2002, the Federal Islamic Court acquitted her, ruling that pregnancy was no proof of adultery.
**http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=38641&SelectRegion=Central_Asi a&SelectCountry=PAKISTAN](http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=38641&SelectRegion=Central_Asia&SelectCountry=PAKISTAN)
This is not my statement. The poor english and endless pointless waffling should have given it away that you wrote that..
No, Hadd punishment is not compatible with modern times. It is something from the 7th century, and the evidential requirements are perhaps too. The fact Hadd evidence and punishment are never carried out or used, should not distract you from the fact that rapists can be punished on the basis of DNA evidence and evidence from women through Tazir cases (which is how all the cases of rape have been punished so far in Pakistan - without 4 witnesses).
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Roadrunner: Actually, I am sorry that I got involved in debate with you because I do not feel that you have any understanding of hudud ordinance. I believe that after so much discussions (going on in Pakistan) on hudud ordinance and so much water gone under the bridge, you could not understand why there are so much hues and cries on hudud ordinance. Unfortunately, it is not only you, there are many.
Anyhow, let me ask you few simple questions and hope that concern of many regarding Hudud ordinance would become clear.
Before questions, it is very important that you should understand that in rape case, there are two parties. One is girl victim that got raped and other is rapist that did the crime of rape.
Question one: Is it possible for female rape victim (girl that takes rape case to court) to bring four adult pious upright male Muslim witnesses that saw the rape and are willing to give witnesses in the court, to prove that she got raped? [Answer ‘yes’ or ‘no’]
If your answer is ‘yes’ then I give up.
If your answer is ‘No’ it is not possible as rape does not normally happen in public where four pious upright Muslim male witnesses watch the rape. Then my next question is that.
Then this is First contagious issue, that hudud ordinance requires such witnesses conditions (without taking into account other evidences) that rape cases under hudud ordinance becomes impossible (stopping rape victims getting justice and helping rapists).
If it is not possible for raped girl to bring four witnesses then can rapist get punishment under hudud law? ‘Yes’ or ‘No’]. [Do not start mentioning Tazir as I am not talking about that]
If your answer is ‘No’ then my question is that according to ‘Hudud law’, what would happen to the rapists (criminals)? Can they be punished without four witnesses under Hudud law or go free?
[Unless judge decides to punish them using Tazir, but again, we are not talking about Tazir anyhow]
If your answer is ‘No’ they cannot be punished and would go free, then:
This is Second contagious issue, that hudud ordinance do not convict the rapists.
Then my question is that, according to Hudud ordinance, if the raped girl cannot provide four witnesses of her rape, can anyone after that rape case (where she confessed that she was rape) sue her for adultery?
If your answer is ‘Yes’ then this is Third contagious issue, that girl that was victim now become accused (due to Hudud ordinance).
[If you answer is that, ‘no, she cannot be sued for adultery’ then go and read hudud ordinance again].
If an unmarried girl becomes pregnant (and claims that her pregnancy is result of rape), then can she be sued for adultery according to Hadud ordinance? [Yes or No]
If your answer is ‘yes’ then:
That is Fourth contagious issue, that a girl victim that become pregnant because of rape become accused of adultery (and could get punishment as Adulterous). [If you think that a pregnant unmarried girl who could not prove that she was raped, cannot be sued for adultery then read the Hudud ordinance again]
And so on (there are many contagious issues regarding Hudud ordinance).
As for you talking about Tazir that is a different issue. Tazir is there when Hudud law fails. As for Tazir, it cannot nullify Hudud laws nor override hudud laws. Judgment according to Tazir is largely dependent on judge discretion.
Note: Hudud ordinance does not just covers Rape, Adultery, fornication but it also covers theft, drinking etc but I am not writing about all what Hudud ordinance covers (even though most what it covers are controversial). What I wrote was regarding rape case and rape cases converting to Adultery case (due to absurd requirements of four witnesses).
I was also mentioning injustices on rape victims due to this ordinance and help to rapists (as they go fee because of lack of four witnesses, while hudud law does not take into account other evidences). You should note that I am not talking about Tazir law (that applies when Hudud law fails and regardless, it is discretionary law)].
Anyhow, my mails were for only those who can think so please I am sorry, I should have ignored your mails. I believe that those who think, my mails must be clear but exceptions will always going to be there.
Thus, if you understood what I wrote or if you did not, it does not matter. Purpose of what I wrote was not to argue for the sake of arguments :). My voice on the issue is just voice of my consciousness (that does not end here on this forum, to pent frustrations) 
. So, please do not get agitated or upset. Have some cold drink, forget and relax 
Re: Huddod Ordinance
I’ve eliminated all the bull**** from your post and answered the important points.
YES, THEY CAN BE PUNISHED UNDER TAZIR. Finally you got it!
The Hudood Ordinance includes Tazir punishment and evidence.
If a girl cannot prove a rape using 4 witnesses (if the trial is Hadd), or using DNA evidence/female witnesses (trial by Tazir), then she can face an adultery charge (which requires 4 witnesses to prove), so in 95% of cases adultery cannot be proven.
The answer is no, because the girl is not married, so it’s not adultery, I guess.
Under Tazir, all forms of evidence, including the woman herself is acceptable. It is not a case of a failed Hudood Law leading to Tazir. Tazir is a part of the Hudood Law. Read the Hudood Ordinance.
THE RAPISTS DO NOT GO FREE. IF 4 WITNESSES ARE NOT PRESENT, TAZIR EVIDENCE IS USED - This includes DNA evidence, the testimony of the woman herself etc.
It’s clear you havent got the faintest idea what you’re talking about.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Recent developments are not inspiring, as they are again not discussing the core issue. What Pakistan has done is to grant bail to 1,300 female prisoners awaiting trial, who are facing charges for adultery and other minor crimes. First, most of the women in jail for adultery claim that they were rape, so it really does not address the present issue, which is to grant these women a right to appeal where they can present the case to the judge, again. In addition, they need to get rid of this four pious male law, as it is not realistic. According to this law, women still can be sentenced to death by stoning if found guilty of having sex outside marriage, this is stupid, when corrupt and tainted politicians are running free all over Pakistan. In addition, where are the provisions for victims and weak? They are not solving this problem rather than applying bandages to a dam.
Moreover, why bail? Are they a flight risk…or threat to the society? Give them a fine; make sense but to put a person in jail for adultery is un-realistic. Are we going to ‘exercise’ Islamic law only on poor and unfortunate and not on our leaders? Do not tell me they have not been around…
I am still optimistic and the news that new Ordinance replacing Hudood Ordinance would be enforce by August 31, 2006 is encouraging. I hope that they will get it right once in for all….
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Reports that the Hudood ordinance will be amended soon.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\07\24\story_24-7-2006_pg1_1
Re: Huddod Ordinance
For everyone else including Pakistanis there is a "master card" (based society where we don't need draconian laws.)
p.s. A shiny golden example of uncouth tribal society is ???? (hint hint!).
Pakistan!
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Yes bro! Ask those Bharatis who have actually been Pakistan.
Bunch of BIMARU residents!
taking pot shots at Pakistan!