Re: Huddod Ordinance
I disagree. I would prefer if the law was eradicated and adultery was not made a criminal offence. Rather this was a choice made by the people, and they can answer for it in some other way. But if you want the adultery law, then this is a good step.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
They need to take this law away because most of the Pakistanis are Muslims by name not by practice. Many politicians, military and security personals have misused this law and made lives of Pakistani women a living hell; examples of Shazia Kahlid and Mukhtar Mai are present in front of us. These women had to go to extreme to get "justice" and justice for women in Pakistan have become a sick joke.
They need to first separate zina from rape, also end this stupidity of having four males; why only males? and how do you find 4 pious of them? Its like impossible considering Pakistan.
Women witness must be legally recognized, also must be encouraged to participate in the legal proceedings and make these legal proceedings open to public rather than between Musharraf and his thinking.
The judiciary must be open and independent where it must protect the weak and vulnerable. Most of the rape vitcims continue to get harrassed and abused even after the crime; more over if they go public, false accusations are thrown left and right. Too many special interests have influence in our courts, its about time we get rid of them.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
man with a plan
aoa
you cannot say stupid to the witness of four males. its islamic binding that apply when somebody blame of Zina. In case of rape there is no need of four males.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Excellent move by President Musharraf in ordering the release of all those women. :k:
Re: Huddod Ordinance
:k:
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Laws are made for everyone, perfect as well as not-so-perfect. There are many reasons why Hadood laws are not suitable for Pakistan.
1: Dinosaur effect
2. left-hand vs. right hand driving
3. Rich vs. Poor
4. Sunni vs. Shia
1. Dinosaurs and Hadood
Hudood laws were meant for tribal societies much different from ours. So this law cannot be applied now.
Back when these laws were instituted, they were kind of revolutionary in nature, as the tribal Arabs lacked good sense about law-full society. The harsh nature of these laws also reflects the harsh tribal environment where these laws were originally applied.
Pakistan and many other countries are different from tribal societies of the past. Just like you cannot bring a T-Rex in the middle of Karachi now, you can't bring 1000 years old laws in North Nazimabad either.
2. Left hand vs. right hand driving laws
Pakistani legal code is a thorough document that should be respected and improved over time. Any other system like Sharia or military courts should not be mixed with the system. Otherwise police, attorneys, and judges will always be confused and different people will pick and chose different version of the law.
Think about this. We now know that on the road "red light" means stop, while "green light" is to go. This is the simplest version of the Pakistani legal code that is modern compared to the laws of 1000 years old. Simply there were no traffic light system back then.
The second aspect of traffic system is the "left hand" vs. "right hand" driving. We started following British system, so we should stick with that system as everyone understands and pretty much follows it.
If a Mullah comes in and says Islamic system is "right hand" and starts a parallel system along with the current left hand system, you can all imagine the terrible situation on the roads.
Similarly, Pakistan already has Legal code for rape, and theft. We should not mix the existing laws with Islamic laws. It will simply result in chaos just like in the example of road system.
3. Rich vs. Poor
We know Hadood laws as implemented in Saudi do not provide justice to everyone. Royals can commit any crime and get away with that.
Poor will be shoved into more draconian sharia laws, while the rich will opt with British laws. This will result in even more chaos.
Hadood laws were temporary to placate Saudi-inspired-Mullahs. This was clearly Sunni version of the laws and Shias version was not followed. The result was Shia-Sunni tussle and we saw organizations like Tehrik-Nifaz-Fiqh Jafria sprout on the scene.
*4. Pakistan is multi-ethnic multisect country *
Unlike mono-sect country like Saudi or Iran, Pakistan is a multi-ethnic multi-religious country. Therefore it becomes even more important to stick with secular laws. Otherwise our society will suffer from intra-sect violence as well.
So to all Bhais and Behns, you can see why it is really important to rid our country form Hadood laws.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
No to Huddod Ordinance
Yes to DNA testing.
here is a little clue
If holy prophet had lived in 21 century What he would had suggested.
1-Four men as witness(I wonder why those men were watching getting a women rapped--and couldn't stop)
OR
2-Reliable DNA testing for that rape claim??
Holy prophet him self always made decision which were best according to situation.
We also should try to get a glimpse of WHY he did that rather then WHAT he did.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
They need to first separate zina from rape, also end this stupidity of having four males; why only males? and how do you find 4 pious of them? Its like impossible considering Pakistan.
Women witness must be legally recognized, also must be encouraged to participate in the legal proceedings and make these legal proceedings open to public rather than between Musharraf and his thinking.
The judiciary must be open and independent where it must protect the weak and vulnerable. Most of the rape vitcims continue to get harrassed and abused even after the crime; more over if they go public, false accusations are thrown left and right. Too many special interests have influence in our courts, its about time we get rid of them.
ManwithStan,
I am not directing this response at you, since I know you will not read it, it's directed at those that are interested in learning something about Pakistan. I'll repeat as your concentration is probably drifting off now, I AM NOT DIRECTING THIS RESPONSE AT YOU.
Zina is not defined as rape in the Hudood Ordinance. However, if a married woman claims she was raped (when in reality she had an affair and got caught), then in such a situation if you have an adultery law, it makes sense to prosecute it. When a rape case is brought to court, the woman hasadmitted she had sexual intercourse with the man. So she has either committed adultery or she has been raped, it cannot be anything else. So, just as she has the right to ask for a rape trial, the husband has the right to ask for an adultery trial, as this is illegal in Pakistan.
Women witnesses ARE LEGALLY RECOGNIZED in Pakistan for rape trials. It is only for Hadd rape trials (Islamic) that women's testimony is not considered equal to a mans. But under Tazir rape trials, a woman's testimony is equal to a man, even the woman accuser can testify in these trials.
The Mai case is a bad example to use 1) it's not finished 2) the initial sentencing was rushed. The Mai case was an example of an Islamic rape trial, which was rushed through in an anti terror court initially.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
DNA testing isnt as perfect as you think it is. But DNA testing is carried out in the majority of Pakistan rape cases (which are Tazir), you just hear about the other Hadd (Islamic) rape cases, where it's not.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
I agree with antibiol, the Hudood should go (though not sure what this dinosaur effect is), but I think Musharraf has made a very good step here..
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Before I begin, I must say that the problem I have is not with Islam rather than with understanding and the implementation of the law.
According to the Hudood Ordinance, all extra-marital sex is criminal act. Even when the woman claims that she was raped not adultery, she must have four pious male witnesses to prove the claim and only Muslim men can testify. Now how many pious Muslim men would be there watching rape of a Muslim woman? Looking at the situation of Pakistan, if some women who were rape are unable to provide four male witnesses, they can use medical evidence and then jury can punish the accused according to the Pakistani penal court. Medical evidence in Pakistani court and jury making decision can only be done when these courts are independent, uninfluenced and protect the weak and as we know, it is not a reality in Pakistan.
Many women in Pakistan about 7,000 are in jail and 88% of them accused of crimes under Hudood. 90% of them have no lawyer because they don't know their legal rights and don't have the money to get or contact one. Many women who, once accused of zina, have claimed to have been rape victims, were charged and imprisoned under this Hudood law, as they failed to produce the supporting witnesses. Thousands of women have been languishing in prisons of Pakistan under this Hudood law.
The major problem, exemplified in the Hudood Ordinance of Pakistan, is approaching rape as zina bil Jabr. The term means “consensual extramarital sex by force”. It does have serious legal implications and has affected the lives of many women in Pakistan. Most women in Pakistan who claimed to be rape-victims when tried under zina bil Jabr of Huddod laws continue to see their lives ruined; why? The reason is that there is no distinction is made between zina and zina bil jabr, which results in becoming a reason to exploit and oppress these victims even further.
First in our conservative country, a woman involved in adultery or rape has to see the shame from the society. If that woman goes to the court and files a report for rape, she needs to prove by having four pious Muslim testimonies that they saw the rape. The person accused of rape can talk about adultery and the woman would be in double jeopardy, she now has to get those witness otherwise she will be tried for zina and put in jail. In addition, in our jails these victims continue to get harassed (verbally and sexually) by our police. The officers discourage these women to file the cases. Many of the rapists are very powerful, thus can manipulate the case for the victims any way possible. I ask where the provisions and laws that protect the weak and alienable are. Reality is that they have become a living nightmare for the weak and disadvantage. Only women who go to extreme i.e., Mukhtar Mai are able to get “justice”, which means first it is stalled than halt than if it gets the world attention, we’ll see and than tried once again.
You need to overhaul this law and start from scratch, argument regarding confusion is interesting because it would apply only when people in majority have a good idea what the law is and meant to accomplish.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
*Roadrunner: Where did I wrote anywhere in my mails that ‘a person should not be taken as innocent until proven innocent’? Rather, at all place, I have wrote that ‘a person should be taken innocent until proven guilty’. It is you who supporting the idea that ‘a person should be taken as guilty until she is proven innocent’. *
For instance, you wrote that since a girl made allegation of rape that if not proven than it is right to assume that she is guilty of adultery.
Even though she did not made any confession that she did adultery, because she made allegation of rape (where sex happened) you want to pin her down on adultery charges.**
Why? ****How can you prove that she is lying (about rape) and that actually she did adultery? Is it just because, her allegation is not proved she becomes liar? If something is not proven, does it mean that it is a lie?
If teacher of your son abuse him and your son tells you about it but could not prove it (because there was no witness) than would you consider your son as liar and punish your son?**
*Read your mail below: *
Roadrunner:
[quote]
When the rape case comes to court, the woman has to admit she had sexual intercourse with the man, in order for him to have raped her..Agreed? So if she had intercourse, she must have been either raped, or she must have committed adultery..Agreed? Both rape and adultery are illegal in Pakistan. So the woman has a right to prosecute the man, but the man or even the woman's husband does also have the right to prosecute the woman if she cannot prove she was raped. That is because adultery is a criminal offence in Pakistan (and many other countries).
[/quote]
roadrunner:
[quote]
This is just a complete contradiction to what you wrote earlier. Earlier you appeared to be suggesting innocent until proven guilty. Now you are saying take the word of the woman that if she says she was raped, she was raped. I disagree,
[/quote]
How taking the word of a woman means different then: ‘innocent until proven guilty?’ I said that word of woman should be taken as true if she claims that she was raped, but I never said that whom ever she alleges should be taken as guilty without proof.
What I wrote regarding this is ... Sa1eem (earlier mail):
[quote]
I think that women words should be similarly respected in rape cases as law and society respect her claim regarding father of the child. Though accused rapists should get punishment only when medical, forensic and other evidences confirm rape and pinpoints rapist.
[/quote]
Where dose it says that rapist or anyone is guilty even when rape stay unproved. I also did not write that one should consider innocent girl guilty, just because rape unproved.
You have also tried to misguide people (intentionally or unintentionally). Your many statements are not correct but you should know that this is age where information is accessible to all, and thus, misguiding people means recognized as such. Let me put some of your statements that are completely incorrect.
roadrunner:
[quote]
A woman does not need to bring 4 witnesses to prove she was raped in Pakistan
[/quote]
It is not true. If rape case goes to Shariet court, to prove rape, 4 witnesses are requirement. It is different matter that if 4 witnesses cannot be provided then Shariet court judge, using other evidences, takes the help of Tazir to punish the culprit or give relief from punishment to the girl (by not enforcing hudd on her). Other evidences include forensics, medical, circumstantial and all evidences.
roadrunner:
[quote]
A rape case in Pakistan can be tried using the Hadd court or a Tazir court.
[/quote]
Actually, there is no such thing as Hadd court and Tazir court. Hadd and Tazir are two routes ‘Shariet court’ takes to give verdict and punishment. If it is difficult to conclude a case using Hadd (or if judge considers that there is enough reason not to use Hadd) then judge can use Tazir to conclude the case. Regardless, even using Tazir, judge can go up to a limit, nothing more. Nevertheless, victims (like rape victims) do not get any relief through Tazir as right but as charity (or goodwill) from judge.
roadrunner:
[quote]
To get a Hadd rape case prosecuted the woman needs to bring 4 witnesses. It is difficult but then the punishment is severe.
[/quote]
There is no such thing as Hadd rape case or Tazir rape case. There is only one type of case and that is rape case. If judge cannot conclude a case using Hadd (like rape victim cannot find 4 witnesses to support their allegation) and there are other evidences support rape (that could even be her own allegation of rape) judge concludes it using Tazir.
roadrunner:
[quote]
If the rape is committed in private, this is considered to be bad, but not as bad as doing it in front of society. In this case, the standard of evidence is less. 4 witnesses are not required, and the woman's testimony is admissible, as is DNA evidence etc (like in the West basically).
[/quote]
If four adult pious male Muslims witnesses are not available, then Judge uses Tazir and then only other evidences, like DNA, medical, circumstantial, forensic etc, are used.
Now let ask you a question (do not take it personal) as question would seem personal, but to understand the situation, personal feelings have to come into. It is Islamic principle that one should think regarding others what they would like for themselves.
Let say, someone from your family (dear one) is raped in front of your eyes in such a way that no evidence is left by the rapist other then you and some family women as witnesses. Would you tell the woman raped to persecute the perpetrator or pray she do not get pregnant and forget all about it?
If you advice the girl to persecute, she alleges rape and Shariet court sends her into prison, waiting for result of the case (do you think that it is right?). Under Hadd law, she cannot produce four male pious witnesses (you are only one male witness) to support her allegation and thus after five years, verdict comes that rape allegation is not justified.
Since rape stay unproved, Shariet court let the rapist go free while put your dear one in prison on charges of ‘sex with consent’ She would stay in prison due to Shariet law, but suppose taking help of Tazir, judge wants to free her.
Now, someone (maybe husband of that girl) wants to persecute her on adultery charges. He wants to take her rape allegation as evidence of adultery and want her punished of Adultery.
(From your mail, it seems that you agree to this, but is it really right?)
Do you think that rape allegation by her should be considered by court as self-confession of adultery (just because, she was raped but she cannot prove it)?
(from your mail, it seems that you agree that she confessed of adultery, but is that right?)
Please also tell that, how rape allegation can be taken as self-confession of adultery (as you wrote in your mail), because she claimed rape not adultery, or did she?
For your help, read what you wrote and think: As that is what you wrote, that rape allegation means that ‘if rape is not proved, it should be taken as confession of adultery’:
roadrunner:
[quote]
When the rape case comes to court, the woman has to admit she had sexual intercourse with the man, in order for him to have raped her..Agreed? So if she had intercourse, she must have been either raped, or she must have committed adultery..Agreed? Both rape and adultery are illegal in Pakistan. So the woman has a right to prosecute the man, but the man or even the woman's husband does also have the right to prosecute the woman if she cannot prove she was raped. That is because adultery is a criminal offence in Pakistan (and many other countries).
[/quote]
Re: Huddod Ordinance
For instance, you wrote that since a girl made allegation of rape that if not proven than it is right to assume that she is guilty of adultery.
No, when a woman makes a rape allegation, she is admitting that she has had some sort of sexual intercourse. If it cannot be proved that it is rape, then there are two options left.
[QUOTE]
Even though she did not made any confession that she did adultery, because she made allegation of rape (where sex happened) you want to pin her down on adultery charges.
[/QUOTE]
You havent studied law obviously (neither have I), but ask any lawyer..If it is not rape, then it is adultery. This is common logic. Whether you can prove this is another matter. But if a married woman admits to intercourse, it is either rape or it is adultery.
[QUOTE]
Why? **How can you prove that she is lying (about rape) and that actually she did adultery? Is it just because, her allegation is not proved she becomes liar? If something is not proven, does it mean that it is a lie? **
**
[/QUOTE]
**
You dont know the system. If a woman cannot prove rape, it does not mean she is a liar. It just means that it might have been adultery. If adultery is a criminal offence, you cannot deny the right of an investigation of court proceeding if there is evidence of adultery.
[QUOTE]
*If teacher of your son abuse him and your son tells you about it but could not prove it (because there was no witness) than would you consider your son as liar and punish your son? *
**
[/QUOTE]
**
Sa1eem..the point I'm trying to get across to you is this. Witnesses are only required for Hadd rape cases which are offences of rape commited in public. These require witnesses because the punishment is so severe. For rape cases where witnesses are not present, the case becomes a Tazir rape case, where DNA evidence, women witnesses are allowed.
[QUOTE]
Read your mail below: **
Roadrunner:
**How taking the word of a woman means different then: ‘innocent until proven guilty?’ I said that word of woman should be taken as true if she claims that she was raped, but I never said that whom ever she alleges should be taken as guilty without proof.
[/QUOTE]
Actually I disagree with this. The word of a woman should not be taken as true until she proves it. However, you should not assume that she is lying either.
[QUOTE]
What I wrote regarding this is ... Sa1eem (earlier mail):
Where dose it says that rapist or anyone is guilty even when rape stay unproved. I also did not write that one should consider innocent girl guilty, just because rape unproved.
You have also tried to misguide people (intentionally or unintentionally). Your many statements are not correct but you should know that this is age where information is accessible to all, and thus, misguiding people means recognized as such. Let me put some of your statements that are completely incorrect.
It is not true. If rape case goes to Shariet court, to prove rape, 4 witnesses are requirement. It is different matter that if 4 witnesses cannot be provided then Shariet court judge, using other evidences, takes the help of Tazir to punish the culprit or give relief from punishment to the girl (by not enforcing hudd on her). Other evidences include forensics, medical, circumstantial and all evidences.
[/QUOTE]
Shariat courts are the ones who deal with Hadd rape cases..these are the Islamic courts, and they deal with public rape cases where witnesses are present.
If the rape was not public, then the Tazir court system is used, where DNA evidence can be used, the testimony of the woman herself can be used in the proceedings.
Now tell me, how is this wrong, and how have I tried to misguide you?
[QUOTE]
Actually, there is no such thing as Hadd court and Tazir court. Hadd and Tazir are two routes ‘Shariet court’ takes to give verdict and punishment. If it is difficult to conclude a case using Hadd (or if judge considers that there is enough reason not to use Hadd) then judge can use Tazir to conclude the case. Regardless, even using Tazir, judge can go up to a limit, nothing more. Nevertheless, victims (like rape victims) do not get any relief through Tazir as right but as charity (or goodwill) from judge.
[/QUOTE]
You're picking on my words here. I'll make it simple for you.
If there are no witnesses to a rape, do the Pakistani courts allow a rape trial based on DNA evidence, or based on the woman's testimony? The answer is yes..the punishment is less than Hadd, it is known as Tazir, but this is still a very long jail term.
How is that misleading..Please think carefully of what you write, because it takes me ages to understand what you write.
[QUOTE]
There is no such thing as Hadd rape case or Tazir rape case. There is only one type of case and that is rape case. If judge cannot conclude a case using Hadd (like rape victim cannot find 4 witnesses to support their allegation) and there are other evidences support rape (that could even be her own allegation of rape) judge concludes it using Tazir.
[/QUOTE]
That's fine, I was just saying it to make it clear. The main point I'm making is that if a woman cannot bring witnesses, the judge make the Tazir evidence acceptable, which includes DNA evidence, or women eyewitnesses.
Again, how is this misleading?
[QUOTE]
If four adult pious male Muslims witnesses are not available, then Judge uses Tazir and then only other evidences, like DNA, medical, circumstantial, forensic etc, are used.
[/QUOTE]
This is incorrect. If the witnesses are not available (Hadd case), the judge will accept DNA, women witnesses etc, which are all Tazir. There are only two levels of evidence, not three as you're making out.
[QUOTE]
Now let ask you a question (do not take it personal) as question would seem personal, but to understand the situation, personal feelings have to come into. It is Islamic principle that one should think regarding others what they would like for themselves.
Let say, someone from your family (dear one) is raped in front of your eyes in such a way that no evidence is left by the rapist other then you and some family women as witnesses. Would you tell the woman raped to persecute the perpetrator or pray she do not get pregnant and forget all about it?
[/QUOTE]
First off, I'm not defending the adultery law in Pakistan. I think it should go. But if you're going to keep it, then I'd definitely prosecute the perpetrator if he was still alive. Why do I say this? Because this is not a Hadd case. There are not enough witnesses, so it would fall under Tazir punishment. Only if there are 4 pious adult males present will such a case be prosecuted under Hadd rules.
[QUOTE]
If you advice the girl to persecute, she alleges rape and Shariet court sends her into prison, waiting for result of the case.
[/QUOTE]
This isnt correct. The man she alleges to have raped her, will be sent to prison, not the woman. Only the accused is sent to prison.
[QUOTE]
Under Hadd law, she cannot produce four male pious witnesses (you are only one) to support her allegation and thus after five years, verdict comes that rape allegation is not justified.
[/QUOTE]
She wont be in prison as she is the accuser. But this case will not be prosecuted as a Hadd. This is a clear Tazir case as there are no enough witnesses.
[QUOTE]
Now since rape stay unproved, Shariet court let the rapist go free while put your dear one in prison on charges of ‘sex with consent’ She would stay in prison due to Shariet law, but suppose taking help of Tazir, judge wants to free her.
[/QUOTE]
I see what the problem is now, you're just confused as to how the legal system in Pakistan works (which I agree needs to be changed).
The rape cases are not prosecuted first by Hadd, and then by Tazir. This would be silly. Rape cases are prosecuted by either Hadd or Tazir. If there is not enough evidence to justify a Hadd case (not enough witnesses), what on earth would be the point of a Hadd trial? The judge will call a Tazir case in this scenario.
I agree that if a rape isnt proved, a woman should not be sent to prison awaiting trial, and this is something Musharraf has now changed. A woman can be bailed, which is a good move.
[QUOTE]
Now, someone (maybe husband of that girl) wants to persecute her on adultery charges. He wants to take her rape allegation as evidence of adultery and want her punished of Adultery.
[/QUOTE]
Again, you're confused here. The system works like this.
[QUOTE]
Do you think that rape allegation by her should be considered by court as self-confession of adultery (just because, she was raped but she cannot prove it)?
[/QUOTE]
Personally I dont think adultery should be a state offence.
But when a woman makes a rape allegation, then it was either rape or it was adultery, there can be no argument about this.
[QUOTE]
Please also tell that, how rape allegation can be taken as self-confession of adultery (as you wrote in your mail), because she claimed rape not adultery, or did she?
[/QUOTE]
Ask your lawyer. But logically you should be able to work it out. Making a rape allegation is not a confession of adultery, but it is a confession of intercourse, which is either rape or adultery.
[QUOTE]
For your help, read what you wrote and think: As that is what you wrote, that rape allegation means that ‘if rape is not proved, it should be taken as confession of adultery’):
[/quote]
[/QUOTE]
No, I didnt write that. If a rape is not proved, it means
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Roadrunner: I think that either I do not understanding you are you are not understanding me. Maybe we are using two different languages :). Obviously, there is no solution to it. As for what I wrote, I wrote it after knowing and understanding the whole subject.
For your information: There is lot of arguments happening on the subject. Jang-group has put some contagious points related to Hadud ordinance. There are 11 issues mentioned there. Please read it them all carefully and try to understand them. Site is:
Geo News: Latest News Breaking, Live Videos, World, Entertainment, Royal
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Why dont you reply to my points and prove them wrong, if you understand it so much?
Fyi, I know about Geo, and the discussions, and I’m for repealing the whole law. But I also know where the Hudood is now, and if you can show me how anything that I’ve posted is wrong, then that will be appreciated.
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Roadrunner: Well brother, I feel that you have set mind that would not change regardless (that is why I was reluctant to post more in response to your mail). On the other hand, you believe that Hudud ordinance should be repealed thus me convincing you that Hudud ordinance is nothing to do with Islam, should not make any difference anyhow.
As for me, I am and always willing to change my thoughts if I come to something that I was unaware of. I am also willing to accept and get convinced if something told to me, backed by facts, intelligence or logic that I believe differently. But, I am sorry to say that my information of Hudud ordinance (along with sharia laws) is different then yours 
Anyhow, let see (this mail is just for general information):hoonh::
roadrunner:
You wrote: If it (rape) cannot be proved that it is rape, then there are two options left.
As for claiming that to be adultery, it is just a speculation. Girl never made any confession of adultery, and thus the allege rape claim cannot be considered as adultery.
[Example: Similar speculation could be many. For instance, if Aslam accuses that Wasim gave him 1000 rupees forge note, police investigates and found no evidence that Wasim gave Aslam 1000 rupees forge note. Now, from allegation by Aslam, it become obvious that Aslam had/has 1000 rupees forge note. No one can say that Aslam got 1000 rupees forge note from Wasim or he forged it. Aslam only confessed that Wasim gave him 1000 rupees forge note. He did not confess that he forged that note.
There is always good probability that Wasim gave Aslam 1000 rupees forge note, though Aslam and police could not prove that.
Now, can anyone take that confession of having forged note by Aslam as confession of forgery? Does that automatically make Aslam criminal of forgery? Does it mean that Aslam be punished of forgery?
Or
Aslam position would be same as any person and to convict Aslam of forgery, someone has to accuse Aslam of forgery. All requirements of forgery accusation has to get fulfilled. Aslam allegation of receiving forge note from Akber cannot be taken as Aslam confession of forgery.
If law says that accusation of forgery needs four adult male witnesses and if four adult male witnesses are not there, forgery accusation leads to punishment of accuser, whereas Aslam stays free. Then for that someone to make that accusation they would need four adult witnesses. If they do not, then they deserve punishment and nothing can be done to Aslam.]
Surah Noor, ayah 4 says same regarding accusing woman. For accusation, 4 adult male witnesses is required else, accuser should be punished, whereas woman stay free all the time (unless 4 adult witnesses are willing to give evidence).
*Surah Noor (24): Ayah 4 *
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
But that is not the case with Hudud ordinance and thus I believe, Hudud ordinance is against what is there in Quran.
As for you saying that:
You are giving right to her husband to accuse her of adultery (though in Pakistan, accuser could be anyone and this accusation happens in most unmarried rape cases). Well, sure, her husband has right but for that accusation of adultery, he should bring 4 adult male pious Muslim witnesses who are willing to give evidence and if he could not, he should be given good thrashing. Whereas, the girl should stay free until four witnesses give evidence.
You also wrote:
Actually you are wrong as I have studied law (not in depth but still, I have). Nevertheless, you mention: 'if a sex is not rape then it is adultery' (well, it could be prostitution, fornication or legal sex between husband and wife :)). Anyhow, when we are talking between two of them (rape and adultery), you are right, but then if rape unproved, it does not automatically means adultery.
It only means unproved rape case. *
Roadrunner:
**
what is this? Read your statement and think again.** If it is adultery and she claims rape then she is obviously lying. Don’t you think so? If she cannot prove rape and she is not lying then it does not mean adultery, it means that rape happened but there is lack of evidence to prove it.
Sure, one cannot deny the right of court investigation but to accuse someone of adultery, there has to be 4 male witnesses before women should be imprisoned, and if there is less then 4 male witnesses that are willing to give evidence, then accuser should get punished with 80 lashes. Read Quranic ayah 24:4: Ayah calls a woman chaste even when she is accused but there are less then four witnesses willing to give evidence.
*Surah Noor (24): Ayah 4 *
YUSUFALI: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
**So (according to Quran) if anyone accuse her of adultery then he should bring four witnesses, else get ready to get 80 lashes. Action against woman can only happen after four witnesses are produce and they give evidences. **
However, I have to accept that it is not like that in ‘Hudud ordinance’ (as Hudud ordinance has made mockery of Quran).
[Well, according to Quran (24: 6-9), Husband, if he witness Zina (that is nothing to do with rape case as above) he can accuse his wife and in this situation, both husband and wife can accuse each other of lying and thus there is no punishment, rather end is divorce. That is all],
Well, I would just say that read issues 6-9 from Jang-group site:
Geo News: Latest News Breaking, Live Videos, World, Entertainment, Royal
**Issue 9: The Hudud ordinance does not differentiate between Zina and Zina-bil-jaber, for both, the evidence required and the punishment (is same). **
Issue 8: No rapist has, till now, ever been given hudd punishment. This is because the court have yet to find a rape case that can be proved by four, pious, honest and upright witnesses. The requirement of four witnesses is stated in the Quran for Zina (not Zina-bil-Jaber) …
**Issue 7: A women who claims to have been raped, but cannot provide sufficient evidence required by the Hudud Ordinance, can be accused of having accepted committing the act of Zina (Adultery) and, therefore, astonishingly, a victim of rape crime can be treated as a Zina offender. **
read again and think what you are writing.
A woman has to prove that she is raped and if she cannot prove then? Under Hudud ordinace, rape is difficult to prove (that happens in most of the time, as it is impossible to find four witnesses … read issue 8 above), so what to be done? Issue 7 above tells that …. (Well, rape is difficult to prove even in normal laws that use all evidences)
Read article from United Nation Office for the coordination of Humanitarian Affairs and think: (I am putting abstract down under)
Abstract from the article on the site::
IRIN news: (United Nation Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs)
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=37481&SelectRegion=Central_Asia&SelectCountry=PAKISTAN
KARACHI, 27 Oct 2003 (IRIN) - **Since October 2002, 18-year-old Nazia Bashir has been fighting a rape case that could, if she loses, lead to her being charged with adultery and sentenced to 100 lashes or death by stoning under Pakistan’s Hudud (singular: hadd), or Islamic criminal code, laws.
**
Nazia worked in the southern port city of Karachi, teaching the Koran to girls at a madrasah co-owned by Maulvi Nazir, whom she has accused of raping her. “His son said that his mother wanted to see me,” she told IRIN from behind a black veil, only her eyes visible behind wire-framed spectacles. “She had never called me before, but I went. She and her sister-in-law gave me a drink that made me unconscious. Maulvi Nazir then took me somewhere else, and for four days he looted my honour. On 12 October, he made me sign a marriage contract as a condition to be freed.”
“He said that now [as a non-virgin] I’m no use to anyone else, so my family would have to marry me to him,” she added. “But I have read the Koran, I know that using force doesn’t make the marriage valid.”
“At first, her family was distraught,” Khalida Ahmad, a socio-legal officer at the War Against Rape, an NGO which helps rape victims, told IRIN in Karachi. “Her father brought poison to kill them all, but an uncle rallied them, and they got the case registered.”
Now the family is pursuing the case despite intimidating phonecalls and threats that include their house being fired upon.
HUDUD LAWS INSPIRE FEAR
**But Khalida finds these threats less worrying than the threat posed by the law itself - the Hudud laws, under which rape cases are registered, and under which a rape victim who is unable prove her case risks being accused of adultery. **These laws make consensual sex outside marriage a cognizable offence, while marital rape and raping a child-bride are no longer offences.
**Last year, a district court in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), which borders Afghanistan, convicted Za’faran Bibi, a pregnant young woman, for adultery after she complained of rape, and sentenced her to death by stoning. **An intense campaign by women’s groups led to an international outcry. In August 2002, the Federal Islamic Court acquitted her, ruling that pregnancy was no proof of adultery - as in the internationally known case of Amina Lawal in Nigeria more recently.
The Hudud Ordinances were promulgated in 1979 by the then military dictator, Gen Ziaul Haq, as part of his “Islamisation programme”. In addition to adultery and fornication (Zina) offences, they deal with offences related to theft, alcohol and drug consumption, and false accusations in court (Qazf). Their fifth component is the Whipping Ordinance, which prescribes hadd punishments such as up to 100 lashes or stoning to death.*
Re: Huddod Ordinance
There are now positive reports in the foreign media, around the debate to get rid of or reform these laws.
After TV Debates, Pakistan May Ease Laws on Rape Reporting
The young audience fell into confused silence and then buzzed with whispers after Mir Ibrahim Rahman announced that there was no difference between an apple and an orange. Mr. Rahman, 28, chief executive of the immensely popular Geo TV network, was speaking last Sunday at a youth conference in Rawalpindi, the garrison city adjacent to the capital, Islamabad. His absurd statement, he immediately made clear, was meant to illustrate the failings of a set of Islamic decrees known collectively as the Hudood Ordinance. The laws, introduced in 1979 and criticized internationally since, include a clause stating that to prove rape, a woman must have at least four male witnesses. If the woman fails to provide proof, she herself faces the charge of adultery. “The Hudood Ordinance makes no distinction between rape and adultery,” Mr. Rahman explained to his audience. “It is just like saying there is no difference between an apple and an orange.”
That flaw, critics say, has put many women behind bars. Of about 6,000 women in Pakistani custody awaiting trial as of March, 4,621 were being held on Hudood violations, according to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, an independent group.** Some 1,300 women awaiting trial were ordered released on Friday, after President Pervez Musharraf allowed bail in nonviolent offenses.** Pakistani society has remained bitterly divided over the laws. Orthodox clergymen have often portrayed the laws as divine (“hudood” refers to punishments in the Koran for adultery and fornication, as well as for consuming alcohol, making false accusations and stealing). Rights advocates have demanded absolute repeal since 1980’s. They maintain that the Hudood Ordinance not only negates the rights of women but is also a misinterpretation of Islam. Now, there are signs that the laws may be, at the least, softened. And Mr. Rahman — who has pressed for public debate over them in television shows, advertising campaigns and personal appearances at seminars, like the one last Sunday — may be a major reason. Most prominently, Geo put together and broadcast four groundbreaking episodes of a program called “Zara Socieye” (“Just Think”) in June, on which 27 top religious scholars debated various clauses of the Hudood Ordinance and agreed on a series of amendments. Mr. Rahman, the son and grandson of Pakistani media magnates, studied in the United States and worked at Goldman Sachs in New York. He returned to Pakistan four years ago to lead Geo, one of more than a dozen private television channels that were founded after President Musharraf liberalized media laws. “On the flight back, I wrote a letter to myself, explaining why I am going back,” Mr. Rahman recalled. “I poured all of my idealism in that letter.” One of the goals he wrote down, he said, was raising public awareness of the Hudood laws.
**Last week, President Musharraf asked the Council of Islamic Ideology, which advises the legislature on whether a certain law is repugnant to Islam or not, to draft an amendment to the Hudood Ordinance. **The Law Ministry is also proposing changes. “Now, there is a lot of consensus,” Wasi Zafar, Pakistan’s law minister, said Wednesday in an interview. “Many religious scholars have admitted that certain laws are required to be amended.” But he maintained that misuse of the laws is the problem, rather than their intrinsic flaws. “Major defect is the misuse of the law,” Mr. Zafar said while acknowledging that legal experts have called it “bad legislation.” Mr. Zafar said his ministry would complete a draft of amendments this month and the government would present it in the next session of the Parliament, which is expected to be held this month as well. A simple majority is needed to change the law. Shahid Shamsi, a spokesman for Jamaat-e-Islami, the country’s largest Islamic party, said his party was not averse to changing the Hudood Ordinance but did not support repealing it. At the same time, some critics of the law say that only repeal will satisfy them. “No amendment to the law will be able to make these ‘black laws’ acceptable to civil society,” read a statement released this week by Pakistan’s leading nongovernmental and rights organizations.
Nasreen Azhar of Action Aid, one of the signers of the statement, said in an interview: “It is beyond amendment. We all have seen the negative effects it has had on women.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/world/asia/09pakistan.html?_r=1&oref=login
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Converting rape cases into adultery cases (something can automatically happen under Hudud Ordinance if rape stays unproved):
**[From Jang-group (Lets think = zara-sonchiya):
http://www.geo.tv/zs/ads/20_e.htm
Issue 7: A women who claims to have been raped, but cannot provide sufficient evidence required by the Hudud Ordinance, can be accused of having accepted committing the act of Zina (Adultery) and, therefore, astonishingly, a victim of rape crime can be treated as a Zina offender.] **
Regarding converting Rape cases into adultery case, I have example showing that what is there in ‘Pakistan Hudud ordinance’ is farce and against Quran and all logic of justice. **Hudud Ordinance promotes rape, protect rapist and victimizes anyone reporting rape. **
Example: Let say that accusation of forgery is big accusation in the country (just like adultery) that has to be backed up by 4 male witnesses that saw doing forgery Or self-confession of forgery.
Put yourself in the place. Now, suppose Mr X gave you 1000 rupees forge notes. You reported to police accusing that Mr X gave you 1000 rupees forge note (you are not accusing Mr X of forgery, but what happened to you). Police investigates and could not prove that Mr X gave you 1000 rupees forge note neither you could prove that Mr X gave you 1000 rupees forge note (as you do not have sufficient witnesses or any way to prove that Mr X gave you 1000 rupees forge note).
Now since you alleged, rather you showed to police 1000 rupees forge note and since Mr X was proven innocent (because of lack of evidence), police throw you into prison and start persecuting you of forgery just because you confessed that you had 1000 rupees forge note. [Note: To have 1000 Rupees forge note (just like becoming victim of rape) is not crime as long as you did not do the forgery (adultery), but you got it from someone else (got raped)].
Now, why you are imprisoned and police is persecuting you? Because when you accused Mr X of giving you 1000 rupee forge note you confessed you had forged note. Logic says that you cannot have that 1000 rupees forge note unless someone gave you or you did forgery yourself. Now since you could not prove that Mr X gave you that 1000 rupees forge note (neither police can prove it) because of lack of witnesses (or any other evidence), someone retarded in the state machinery thinks that it automatically means, you did the forgery and thus, state should persecute you of forgery.
Do you think that it is fair? State should have all the right to execute a forger, no problem. You hold 1000 rupees forge note, no problem. But you accused Mr X of giving you a forge note and could not prove that (neither state could) due to lack of witnesses or evidence, that is the problem because while accusing, you now have to prove that Mr X gave you 1000 rupees forge note or it should be taken as self-confession of forgery, right (or farce)? Thus, taking your self-confession (I think that only retarded would consider that as self-confession), state should persecute you, right (or farce)? Justice is well done (or it is injustice)? What you think of that? Does it help reporting crime you suffered or discourage you? Would it increase use of forge note or curb that?
Or
Your position should be same as any person and to convict you of forgery, someone has to accuse you of forgery. All requirements of forgery accusation be fulfilled and your accusation (without proving) should not be taken as self-confession of forgery. Your allegation of receiving forge note from Mr X is only unproved accusation and not self-confession of forgery.
Thus, if law says that accusation of forgery needs four adult male witnesses seeing you doing forgery and if four adult male witnesses are not there, no one should accuse you of forgery. If law says that, accusation of forgery without backup of four eyewitnesses should lead accuser to punishment, then if anyone accuse you of forgery, they should get punished, not you.
What you think? Consider allegation of receiving 1000 rupees forge note as rape allegation and forgery as adultery, then you will get me. Thus, my point is that allegation of rape is not confession of adultery. If anyone wants to sue a girl of adultery on the basis that rape allegation she made was not proved so it must be taken as self-confessed adultery, then that is wrong. Therefore, if anyone sues rape-victim of adultery, four male adult pious witnesses that saw adultery happened should give evidence, as should be requirement in any adultery accusation case, as it is a requirement according to what is mentioned in Quran, surah 24, ayah 4).
Surah Noor, ayah 4 says same regarding accusing woman. For such accusation of adultery, four adult male witnesses is required else, accuser should be punished, whereas woman stay free all the time (unless four adult witnesses are willing to give evidence).
Unfortunately, that is not the case with Hudud ordinance and thus I believe, **Hudud ordinance is farce and against justice and what is there in Quran. We should follow Quran rather the man made farce law (aka: Hudud Ordinance). **
According to Quran:* Surah Noor (24): Ayah 4 *: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-
**So (according to Quran) if anyone accuse a girl/woman of adultery then that person should bring four witnesses, else get ready to get 80 lashes. Action against woman can only happen after four witnesses are produce and they give evidences. **
**It is not like that in ‘Hudud Ordinance’ what is there in Quran. Actually, Hudud ordinance has made mockery of Fairness, Justice, Islam, Logic, Intelligence and Quran.
** ‘Hudud Ordinance’ discourages rape victims to report rape (as they risk persecution for adultery if rape is not proved) and thus it encourages rapes and help rapists. Consequently, it victimizes rape victims (providing farce reason of persecuting rape victims of adultery, claiming allegation of rape as self-confession of adultery).
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Long live Musharraf!
Re: Huddod Ordinance
Praise be to Allah that these terrible wrongs are finally being righted.