How to keep army away?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

We see a thread “ex-armymen” voicing against Mushy’s rule, then few of the ex-armymen say they didn’t criticize Mushy. Then few days later some of those critics say that they had no problem supporting previous Martial Law (read Aalsi’s thread about Zia’s pal).

Now we keep kicking political parties for being monarchic, dictators within etc. Lets say tomorrow a new law is passed and all political parties are forced to hold elections within themselves. So that part may get solved.

The tricky most problem to me is, how to keep army away from throwing out another civilian government? Remember, army is the only one with all those guns, tanks etc. Who can keep them away?

2

Re: How to keep army away?

Nothing but a culture change in the army, or a period of army rule that is so horrific and unpopular that the thought of repeating it leaves a bad taste in the generals' mouths.

Latin America went through such experiences, with military governments with horrific human rights records and economic disasters and international humiliations for decades. Now, those armies avoid politics even when politicians humiliate them by publically punishing generals.

The problem for Pakistan is that none of our military dictatorships have been as horrific as those found in other latin american and asian countries (such as Burma). Our military governments haven't been responsible for mass purges and abductions (such as in Argentina), and haven't ruthlessly tortured all opposition (as in Brazil and Burma).

Our generals therefore don't find the idea of taking over to be as shameful as generals in other countries with a history of military dictatorship.

3

Re: How to keep army away?

Only fear of Allah , or Allah Himself. There is no other practical solution. The constitution of Pakistan specifies ultimate punishment for , breaking ,dismantling , terminating Constitution of Pakistan outside the framework of constitution itself . It all has been done so many times already but no actions has ever been taken against those doing so. If constitution cannot protect itself nobody can.

4

Re: How to keep army away?

Could we form a sort of "Supreme-Military-Council" just like we have "Supreme Judicial Council" which is supposed to hear cases against "CJ or other higher judges"?

That "Supreme-Military-Council" will ensure that no brigades obey anyone's unconstitutional order.

5

Re: How to keep army away?

The only practical way can be if that ultimate punishment specified in the constitution could be carried out once or twice, then nobody will dare to use unconstitutional methods to assume power.
Laikin billy kay galay main yeh ghanti kown bandhay ga ?

6

Re: How to keep army away?

It is dog eat dog world in Pakistan! A poweful wadera in the seventies didn't set a good democratic setup either in the seventies!

7

Re: How to keep army away?

That won't work. All it will mean is that the next military government will refuse to ever peacefully stand down, as Yahya Khan did, and Zia's successors did.

If you know that giving up power will lead to you being killed, you will kill however many people you must to avoid being forced out.

8

Re: How to keep army away?

^ Then does it mean that the illegal ruler needs to be killed/hanged while he is still on chair?

9

Re: How to keep army away?

The problem is, if you try, you're up against the people with the most guns and firepower.

How many military dictatorships have ever been successfully overthrown by force of arms? Very few, most dictatorships end only when the dictators themselves choose to end it. Now how many people have died in futile efforts to overthrow an illegal ruler? Lots, and lots, and lots.

Trying to kill/hang an illegal ruler while still in power is next to impossible, and you have to lose a lot of lives and cause a lot of suffering to do so despite being likely to fail anyway.

You can only do so after they are out of power; but if they expect to be killed after losing power they have no incentive at all to give up power.

10

Re: How to keep army away?

In essence we can practically do nothing if army ventures into governance yet again.

I wonder what is our army fed internally to think they are owners of Pakistan? May be we should have some "seminar"/"education" for all captains, colonels, brigadiers on necessity of democracy frequently and how important it is to uphold constitution.

11

Re: How to keep army away?

Power can spoil anybody. I think weakening of internal security structure gives military an excuse to topple down the democratic elected government...I guess its all Government fault for not doing their public service well..Government should increase the transparency in the system to check corruption in all departments including Military..

12

Re: How to keep army away?

People in army are just like you and me and they do not act any different. If I was heading armed forces and would have seen that the country is run by corrupt and incompetent politicians, I would have acted same way as many in armed forces acted in Pakistan. That is to kick and get rid of those politicians from power.

Politicians may get into power through vote, but they rule a country on the strength of moral right and respect politicians have over those they rule. Once politicians lose that moral right and respect, army who is strongest body in the country rightly kick that politician out of power.

Incompetent politicians involved in corruption, nepotism, and misuse of power, lose moral right to rule the country as well as all respect they have amongst masses and armed forces. In such situation, army seeing the country in danger from these corrupt politicians act and kick them out of power.

So, to stop army from power, politicians in power have to raise their character, become competent, stop corruption, stop nepotism, and stop misuse of power, so that they can earn that respect to rule and serve the country.

Politicians are given power to rule as trust. They are expected to be least corrupt and icon of morality. They are engine of the country when in power. If politicians in power would be honest and respectable than country can be run effectively and efficiently. Others in the country can be forced to become honest by such politicians. So, let work for zero tolerance when dealing with politicians in power.

This is possible if an independent body in the country is formed, independent of politicians and above political rulers including Prime Minister. This body should have backing of constitution as well as army for strength behind them. Duty of this body should be to look at and investigate corruption amongst politicians.

If this body finds any politician involved in corruption, doing nepotism, or misusing power, than this body should act against such politician, confiscate all wealth belonging to that politician and belonging to immediate family members of that politician. Further, such politician guilty of corruption, nepotism or misuse of power should be hanged in public (army can help in doing this).

Further, it should become law in the country backed by constitution that two person from immediate family should not hold any political post in the country concurrently (including post as MNA, MPA, or councillor), as that would reduce not only corruption but would bring better accountability in the country.

13

Re: How to keep army away?

Definition of Dictatorship.

How about letting the civil setup sort out its own mess. Army has had the biggest budget since the history of Pakistan, can you guess why?

True, the politicians should feel the heat and be responsible but not from the armed forces, but from the people. The only way that can happen is if people are given time to maturely filter out bad choices. Army meddling in civil affairs, only gives the corrupt politicians icing to cover their bad recipe because they use the "Army intervention" to their advantage and play on that marshal law card.

It's a no brainer.

14

Re: How to keep army away?

It seems that you are just getting misguided by the propaganda of corrupt politicians.

Actually, it is not possible for people (voters) to know if a politician is corrupt or honest. Only people that could know are people who are in government service and have access to what is happening in office or what a politician have (possess). It is people in government service (police, investigating agencies, anti-corruption department, taxation department, and so on ...) who have access to not only all what politician does in office but what that politician have, as it is these departments that have access to all government papers and can investigate a politician.

Army in Pakistan has biggest network of intelligence in Pakistan and have access to many documents as well as access to people in different departments. They also have military power to act against corrupt but powerful politicians, something that most other departments do not have. Hence they act.

Well, let say that what you believe is right and it should be voters who decide if a politician is corrupt or honest (as most corrupt politicians says that voters should decide, and would like people to believe that too).

I do not know neither I believe it is possible that voters could know that a politician they voted is honest or corrupt, and that once in office, that politician is not doing any corruption.

Pakistani voters are mostly uneducated but let say that voters are educated and very intelligent too. Now, tell me how a voter would get access of what the politician is doing in office, how many accounts a particular politician have, what he has in his accounts, how much money he transferred abroad, what properties and wealth that politician had before election and how much properties and wealth he increased once in office, and so on. Please tell me how?

~~~ Missing someone ~~~
15

Re: How to keep army away?

Oh i see, so you do believe "babysitting" the civil governments is the solution!

Excellent. We need more people like you...oh wait! we have...The Pakistan history of 60 yrs is full of folks with exactly your kinda rationality.

Army cries 'Politicians corrupt, and politcians cry Army cruel'......a cat-mouse chase that has kept Pakistan behind in almost every field.

I do have faith in the people of Pakistan and they do realize the power of vote. Unfortunately, either they're not taken seriously, or when they are, their votes are illegally used to divert the mandate on which they voted.

I agree the public maybe unaware of the dirty laundry of politicians, and they do need reeducation in every aspect more than ever now. But that does not give the Armed forces the right to come running and take over Govt. whenever they please. That's just WRONG!!!!!

Either Pakistan can be a democracy, or a Policed state! The choice is quite simple.

The ARMY is for protecting the country, not running it. It's as simple as that, lets not complicate and redefine the roles. Lets just follow the predefined constitutional roles outlined FIRST. That's barely happening.

The Random Thread
16

Re: How to keep army away?

Yaar .. don't you think that you are just twisting the answer and beating the bush? I asked you specific question. So, can't you please answer that? :)

~~~ Missing someone ~~~
17

Re: How to keep army away?

I asked you a question too. You're the spin-master, not me. What i posted was in direct response to what you posted.

Obviously it's like talking to a wall, so i'll move on.

Thanks for reading. :)

Besides we've already established and it's quite clear that you DO support the Army interfering in civil affairs. :D

18

Re: How to keep army away?

Brother, your wish. :) Anyhow, I am repeating the question.

How voters should know that the politician he voted into office is honest while in office, and was not doing corruption?

We should know that Laghari, who was PPP party leader, knew BB more than any of her voters, as Laghari was not only very close to Bhutto, but was also very close to BB. BB voted Laghari in Presidency and made her party vote for him. While in office of Presidency, Laghari found out that she was doing all sorts of corruption, nepotism and was also misusing power, so he sacked her.

Now, question arises that, did Laghari knew about BB corruption more or voters? Because, if only voters should decide who is corrupt than Laghari sacking BB was wrong. But is it possible that if BB was corrupt than voters would know and not Laghari? Question is that:

If BB was corrupt than is it right that she should have been left to rule and keep doing corruption and destroying Pakistan, until next election?

Further, my question is that, if voters would know that she is corrupt or honest, than how?

19

Re: How to keep army away?

Now lets evaluate what past armymen have done. I can't evaluate Ayub Khan's martial law or times. I can only look at Ziaul Haq and Musharraf.

Ziaul Haq kicked out ZAB and hanged him. What was done to ensure that democratic system is well established, corrupt politicians do not get into power, people are held accountable, justice is free and available to all, law is enforced etc? Answer: Nada, zilch. He broke JI's back but brought up criminals/gangs and divided the province along linguistic lines, is that an acceptable action? (Ref Karachi)

There are many other wrong policies of Ziaul Haq, the "armyman", who kicked out a civilian government (however corrupt/bad) but didn't improve anything in terms of democratic institutions, corruption, accountability, justice etc.

Look at Musharraf. In 1999 "ehtasab" was the slogan when he ousted Nawaz Sharif. What do we have today? Nawaz is back in politics, Benazir was too, both were regarded a very corrupt ones. He issued NRO, no improvement on democratic institutions yet again. So what is the point of armyman replacing a 'corrupt and crook' politician?

[quote]
Politicians may get into power through vote, but they rule a country on the strength of moral right and respect politicians have over those they rule. Once politicians lose that moral right and respect, army who is strongest body in the country rightly kick that politician out of power.
[/quote]

Same goes for armymen who kick out a civilian ruler on pretext of corruption but are unable to remove it themselves. They have failed on accountability/justice front. They have all failed on "democratic front". Why should we support them?

[quote]
So, to stop army from power, politicians in power have to raise their character, become competent, stop corruption, stop nepotism, and stop misuse of power, so that they can earn that respect to rule and serve the country.
[/quote]

Seems like definition of "nepotism" is only when your "blood-familiy" is rewarded, what about the "colleague" family rewards? Army has/had creeped into all civilian institutions, was that not a "nepotism"? Did they not misuse their power? They are all the same, whether they come wearing uniform or without. We need to have an accountability system which will keep them all in check.

[quote]
Further, it should become law in the country backed by constitution that *two person from immediate family should not hold any political post in the country concurrently *(including post as MNA, MPA, or councillor), as that would reduce not only corruption but would bring better accountability in the country.
[/quote]

What about one person holding two positions? :D

20

Re: How to keep army away?

"What about one person holding two positions?", then we'll be seeing another Hitler..

What if military power be divided between 5-6 ppls(panel), just like UN security council and should have VETO rule, instead of giving all da power to one person..