HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN WHEN YOU DIE

Society Religion & Philosophy
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That's clearly untrue. Jesus claimed to be God many times. Read my posts on this.

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I don't believe that there ARE any contradictions in the bible. I believe that it is the very word of God. It was written by several people through the Holy Spirit (God).

Muhabbat Bheek Hai Shayad
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Read history. and dont just say he said this and he said that.

Jesus never claimed divinity. Or if you are not much of a reader then watch the PBS documentary called " Banned from the Bible" there is the truth in black and white from christian scholars.

I dont have to take the word of someone here..I will listen the scholars and believe the history over you anytime.

Timepass - February
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Jesus Christ is God

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. {everlasting: Heb. the days of eternity}

This prophecy is of Christ's first comming. His Goings forth have been from everlasting because Christ Jesus is God **Jesus Christ is one with the Father. He is God. **

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all one God

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

Jesus declares Himself to be the great I AM of the Old Testiment

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

"I am" is God. There is only one God. That God has three parts

Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

God's plurality is found in Genesis

Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

John declares Christ Jesus to be God

Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John declares that the world was made by Him (Jesus Christ)

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

All things were made by Him and He was in the beginning with God (Father)

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Conclusion: Jesus Christ is God. Not a God but the God of the bible. God has three parts. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All are equal yet the Son is submissive to the Father and the Holy Spirit is submissive to the Son. Jesus Christ was an EXAMPLE for us. He died on the cross for our sins so that we could go to heaven and be forgiven of our sins. He shed His blood for us.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Won't you read this original post and pray that prayer and ask Jesus Christ to be your Savior and Lord

Timepass - February
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Don't take my word for it. Take it from Jesus Himself. Read the above post. 90% of the Christian denominations will tell you that the bible explicitly says that Jesus Christ is God. My denomination is the largest denomination in the world among Christians. I think that the majority opinion is on my side that Jesus Christ is God.

1st Test: Pakistan v South Africa, Johannesburg, Feb 1-5, 2013
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tell me xfrodobagginsx, who wrote your bible, the so called words of God? If Jesus Christ is god, why was he tempted by Satan? Can God be tempted by Satan? Who was looking after universe when your god was dead for three days? Why did your god cried to himself for forsaking himself? Your bible tells us that your god regrets his decisions!

It is the same bible, which tells us that biblical jesus was a human and being he said "father is greater than I", "father is greater than all". The whole concept of trinity is contradictory and flawed from the very base. This is what you say:

1 - The father
2 - The son
3 - The holy ghost

The father, the son and the holy ghost are divine and they're three different person yet they are one. The son is god but but he is also a human being and son of god. How does this make any sense?

Sadqa
Sadqa
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When you do not have reasonable secular proof for the existence of your God, what difference does it make if you have 100% faith that he will give you a place in his non existant heaven? The first thing you need to do is provide us secular proof for the existence of your god. And I dont want testimony of the Romans, since I am not offering you the testimony of the Arabs for the existence of my God.

Sadqa
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My responses are in bold above

Either you believe the bible or you don't.

Jesus said:

Joh 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

The bible says (Jesus is the word according to John chapter 1)

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

No one can fully understand God's word or else it wouldn't be God's word. I don't understand everything about Jesus, but I believe what the bible says because it's the word of God.

Satan quoted the bible as the word of God to try to tempt Christ:

Mt 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Notice that satan even attacked Him being the Son of God.

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^ Peace xfrodobagginsx

You posted this:

[quote]
In order to respond to this challenge it is important that we begin by recognizing and understanding clearly the presupposition and thinking that underlies such a challenge. The principle of non-contradiction has been elevated to the status of an absolute criterion, capable of being applied by human beings in judging the authenticity of God's word. This is not a proposition to which Christians can or should give assent. The Christian will gladly admit that scripture is ultimately non-self-contradictory. But the Christian cannot agree that the principle of non-contradiction is given to men as a criterion by which they are to judge God's word. It is this criterion which the Muslims have imposed upon the discussion of revelation.
[/quote]

Actually the line of argumentation by the Christians here is wrong. The reason for coming out with the contradictions in the Bible is not to convince the Christian that the Bible is not the Word of God, rather it is to give ourselves confidence that we have the unadulterated version. We do not or should not try to convince you of the Bible not being the Word of God, rather we should use the Bible to confirm the Qur'an to show you that the Qur'an is actually from God, both from the angle that the Bible does not necessarily contradict it and from the angle that it passes its own falsification test of not being wraught with contradiction.

Rather the Christian is completely allowed to judge the Qur'an by this Criterion because 1) the Christian does not think of it as the Word of God and 2) The Qur'an sets this as a challenge. What Muslims should do however is not dwell with the Christians that we have found contradictions in it, rather we should appeal to Christians to show that it is actually possible and plausible for Islam to be the true heir of the Kingdom of God on Earth and that Muhammad (SAW) was the one who was sent to comfort the world.

Any such interpretations the Christians will have to resort to things like:

1) You must have the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible (which is a requirement not in the Bible)

2) Based on the interpretations of Christian personnages of history who have maintained their own authority and developed their own theology (based not on scripture but on the cults of Roman past)

Until Muslims show that we are indeed the most loving of God and we have the recipe for harmony and balance in this world this debate will be meaningless. Christians are spiritual people and will never be led necessarily by our attempts to show up things on a rational basis rather we have to show that we are living the life Jesus (AS) taught us to live, whilst not living the life we want to live whilst merely believing he died for our sins.

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I didn't write that quote above in your post. I may have posted it from a website or something.

Psyah wrote:

Any such interpretations the Christians will have to resort to things like:

1) You must have the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible (which is a requirement not in the Bible)

Actually, it IS a requirement in the bible. The (natural man) is the unsaved, non-Christian man who does not have the Holy Spirit. Only and ALL true born again believers have the Holy Spirit.

1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2) Based on the interpretations of Christian personnages of history who have maintained their own authority and developed their own theology (based not on scripture but on the cults of Roman past)

Every arguement I have given you has been backed by Scritpture so your arguement that it's not based upon scripture is bogus.

Until Muslims show that we are indeed the most loving of God and we have the recipe for harmony and balance in this world this debate will be meaningless.

Osama bin laden is not loving. Would you say that he is following the koran or not? I believe he is following the koran. Remember that it's not merely about feelings, it's about what's actually true.

Christians are spiritual people and will never be led necessarily by our attempts to show up things on a rational basis rather we have to show that we are living the life Jesus (AS) taught us to live, whilst not living the life we want to live whilst merely believing he died for our sins.

*That's not what being a Christian entails. We do good works BECAUSE Jesus Christ has already saved us from our sins, not so that we can be saved. *

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

You cannot be good enough to get to heaven. If you could then Jesus Christ died in vain.

Ga 2:21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

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Peace xfrodobagginsx

Primarily my concern is that 'why must you have the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible?' Rather in fact even when you have the holy spirit you still do not understand the Bible, because you often use it out of context. Any way we have something similar in the Qur'an believe it or not. At the very beginning it declares that "it is a doubtless guidance for those who fear God" if what you mean by having the Holy Spirit means the same as 'those who fear God' for us then I can agree with you. But what do you actually mean by the term?

Also, for us it is clear that one can only receive guidance from the Qur'an if they first fear God, but in the Bible reference you have given me there is no reference of scripture. Where does it say that "in order to understand the Bible one needs to have the Holy Spirit ... I was not contending with you whether you get the Holy Spirit or not, but the requirement for having it in order to understand the scriptures ... where is this statement?

Also, if you have the Holy Spirit then please tell me who is your Spiritual Mother?

I contend whether my argument is bogus, by providing a reference it does not nulify my claim, because many of your references are forced on to our particular situation without you giving mind to the context.

Mr baggins even Hitler considered himself a devout Christian and you probably want to do what he actually did do, but not with Jews but with Muslims. You have demonstrated no concern for fruitful discussion and deny or ignore every point you do not like. Is this what being Christian is about? Rather than drawing me towards your way you making go further away.

Please read the parable of the prodigal son ... in it there is clear evidence of forgiveness without any sacrifice. It is a prime example that if turn back i.e. towards GOOD WORKS then God will forgive us ... Even then Muslims hold that forgiveness is a Mercy and we cannot depend on it. If you are already saved then so am I ... I would like to ask ... what would happen to those Romans and Jews who did try/ or succeed in killing Jesus (AS) [If that is what you believe] what will happen to them? They actually did the killing will they go to paradise as well? For sure they believed that he died on the cross ...

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I URGE you to read this first post carefully and pray that prayer at the bottom of it to God from your heart. It will explain what salvation is in a legal sense. God desires to save every person, but will only save those willing to place their faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross to pay for their sins. Will you follow Him? Give Him your life? Do as He says in His word (the bible)?

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Peace xfrodobagginsx

You are going around in circles and getting me to chase you around. I'm stepping out of this rut.

I asked one question from you to see whether the Holy Spirit could in fact guide you, but it seems you don't have the Holy Spirit in you because you got one simple fact wrong:

[quote]
Also, if you have the Holy Spirit then please tell me who is your Spiritual Mother?

I don't have one. The bible says that "the church" is the bride of Christ. "Israel" is the wife of Jehovah, God.

[/quote]

You said that you don't have a Spiritual Mother ... I contest that because Paul your successor of Christ (AS) said in Galatians 4:25-27

[quote]
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Why didn't the Holy Spirit tell you that your Spiritual Mother is Jerusalem?
[/quote]

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Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy.
Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning.

It’s not our mother in the sense that God is our Father. It is a place of safety, not a literal mother, like God becomes our literal, Spirtual Father when we accept His Son Jesus Christ. It is merely an allegory. Allegories are not meant to be taken literally.

Ga 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Someone wrote:

Verse 26. But Jerusalem which is above] The apostle still follows the Jewish allegory, showing not only how the story of Hagar and Sarah, Ishmael and Isaac, was allegorized, but pointing out also that even Jerusalem was the subject of allegory; for it was a maxim among the rabbins, that “whatsoever was in the earth, the same was also found in heaven for there is no matter, howsoever small, in this world, that has not something similar to it in the spiritual world.” On this maxim, the Jews imagine that every earthly thing has its representative in heaven; and especially whatever concerns Jerusalem, the law, and its ordinances. Rab. Kimchi, speaking of Melchizedec, king of Salem, says: hlem lv Mlvwry wz zu Yerushalem shel malah, “This is the Jerusalem that is from above.” This phrase frequently occurs among these writers, as may be seen in Schoettgen, who has written an express dissertation upon the subject. Hor. Hebr., vol. i. page 1205.

Is free, which is the mother of us all.] There is a spiritual Jerusalem, of which this is the type; and this Jerusalem, in which the souls of all the righteous are, is free from all bondage and sin: or by this, probably, the kingdom of the Messiah was intended; and this certainly answers best to the apostle’s meaning, as the subsequent verse shows. There is an earthly Jerusalem, but this earthly Jerusalem typifies a heavenly Jerusalem: the former, with all her citizens, is in bondage; the latter is a free city, and all her inhabitants are free also. And this Jerusalem is our mother; it signifies the Church of Christ, the metropolis of Christianity, or rather the state of liberty into which all true believers are brought. The word pantwn, of all, is omitted by almost every MS. and version of antiquity and importance, and by the most eminent of the fathers who quote this place; it is undoubtedly spurious, and the text should be read thus: But Jerusalem, which is above, is free, which is our mother.

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Peace xfrodobagginsx
Nice try!
All I wanted for you to show me is how your faith is better than mine, but instead we are falling in to debates about scripture. Anyway … I take your explanation about metaphor seriously but then you do not apply the same when it comes to references of son of God and the holy spirit. When it comes to ‘mother Jerusalem’ you choose to take it as a metaphor.
Do you know other than this your reasoning is quite flawed:
In the New Testament an allegory begins with the term “For it is written” we find this statement in verse 22 of Galatians 4.
The theme of Galatians 4 is that it is a letter written to convince people that the law is no longer binding rather that it never was binding for those who were ‘sons of the freewoman’.
The allegory to which you have referred to in verse 24, actually comes from the statement in verse 22 to 23. Verses 24 to 26 is Paul’s explanation of it.
Here in bold is the allegory:

[quote]
22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[/quote]

Here in bold is the explanation thereof:

[quote]

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. **
*25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. *
**26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

[/quote]

To clarify :
The bondmaid Agar (Hagar) – is the allegory for – the children of mount Sinai in Arabia who answers to Jerusalem.
The freewoman – is the allegory for - Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all
So we are still left with the uncomfortable predicament of explaining this.
I also did not ask you who was your ‘Spirit Mother’, I asked who your ‘Spiritual Mother’ is and it is Jerusalem according to Paul’s fallacious reasoning of bondage and free.
Besides you know exactly what I meant and it was uncouth for you to assume that I meant mother in sense of God being the spiritual father because in your reply you mentioned Israel as a the bride of God. Why then would you give this information to me?
It seems when I ask you about your scripture the Holy Spirit can only discern those things for you that a very good Bible database can give you. However, because this particular phrase is written in an obscure way you in your enlightenment missed it completely.

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Hagar is an allegory for the non-Jew. She is the mother of the arabic race. Sarah is the freewoman who represents the Jew. I believe that the muslims are jeaolous of the jews which is why they hate them so much. First of all, Jerusalem is not my spiritual mother. I have explained it to you, it's not my fault if you don't agree. In an allegorical sense, you could make the arguement that it is the mother of the Jews, but you would still be wrong. Jerusalem perhaps represents the Jews. I am not Jewish. I am a Christian. I didn't say that the Jews were the bride of Christ, I said the Jews are the wife of Jehovah. You are going into deep theological arguements all over the map, not realizing the difference between the Jews and the church. The church, (which is currently comprised of people from all races who accept Jesus Christ into their Hearts as Lord and Savior, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for their sins) is the bride of Christ.

Secondly, that is really a pointless arguement since it has nothing to do with the way of salvation. If you want to debate something of importance, let's debate salvation, since nothing else matters if your going to spend eternity in hell anyway.

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Peace Mr Baggins

Please take this issue up with the writer of Galatians 4 ... I wrote this:

[quote]
I also did not ask you who was your ‘Spirit Mother’, I asked who your ‘Spiritual Mother’ is and it is Jerusalem according to Paul’s fallacious reasoning of bondage and free.
[/quote]

I already agree with you that the Hagar is the mother of Arabs and Jerusalem applies to the Jews, why then was he talking about freewoman and bondmaid if he did not intend it to mean the New and Old Covenant?

Your reasoning is sound and I agree with you, but you could not identify the Spiritual Mother and you are criticising the writings of Paul ... but I guess I don't understand them like you do.

Let's indeed discuss salvation ... Islam tells me that salvation is purely in the Hands of God ... if He so chooses through His Mercy sinners may enter paradise, no one is subject to a free ticket to salvation and this encourages us all to be good. Although we cannot be sure of it, we trust in it; if we do good and humble ourselves for God's Mercy then we will be saved.

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There is no spiritual mother. That's an allegory. You will not find any Christians who will say that Jerusalem is their mother. That's not biblically sound.

The bible tells me that salvation is a free gift of God available to ANYONE who will simply accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, believe that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for their sins accepting His sacrifice to pay for their sins.

I mean no disrespect by saying this, but it must be said. I believe that the koran is a false book because it contradicts the bible. It was merely copied by mohammad from the biblical stories and twisted it up to say what he wanted. Every major doctrine in the koran directly contradicts what the bible says. This is no accident. The dead sea scrolls PROVE that the bible has been preserved so you can't say that it's been corrupted. Jesus directly quoted the bible as authoritative. Jesus death, burial and resurrection is NOT only recorded in the bible, but ACTUAL secular History records it, yet the koran denies it. The biblical history and the secular history were written by the eyewitnesses. Are you really gonna sit there and tell me that they are wrong and one man mohammud is right? Come on now. You have to choose whom you are going to believe because they both contradict each other. You cannot believe the bible AND the koran. One is wrong and there other is correct. I choose to believe God's word, the bible. I mean no disrespect by saying this but it must be said. The koran wasn't even written until hundreds of years later. Plus, the only reason that the arabs became muslims wasn't because they believed mohammud, it was because he killed anyone who wouldn't convert. He tortured them. That's simply the truth. The great grandparents of the arabs were Christians. Many were murdered for their faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Only the ones who backed down and were forced to convert to islam did. What does that say when a religion cannot stand on it's own, but has to be spread by violence? You know very well what happens to muslims who leave the muslim faith, yet if you don't become a Christian, then you won't really go to heaven. You need to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. It's not about joining a church. It's not about maybe going to heaven and being with God. It's about a promise that God has made to save ANYONE who will accept what He has provided. That's what the arabic forefathers knew and sadly were murdered for. The salvation message of Christ has been corrupted by many religions because it is an attack of the enemy on God's truth. If the devil can convince people not to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, it doesn't matter what else they believe, they won't go to heaven. We are in a real WAR for the souls of men.

Pray and ask the Lord to reveal His truth to you. Tell Him that if He reveals the truth of who Jesus really is to you, that you promise to believe Him, even if it contradicts what you currently believe. Place it in God's hands. He is a personal God. He loves you and desires you to know the truth.

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Peace xfrodobagginsx

I have ignored most of your post, we can pick those points up later. You make a claim. That the Qur'an 'is written by Muhammad (SAW)' he copied the Bible and then twisted the stories.

If this is true then those stories that he twisted up will be obvious to spot. Please provide the story from the Bible which is original and then the copied twisted version in the Qur'an for us all to compare. Then we can move on.

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Let's go with the most important story of all in the bible. The one that leads to eternal life. The story of how Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. In order to be saved, you must believe in your HEART that You are a sinner and in need of a Savior. That Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and accept Him into your heart as Lord and Savior. All false religions deny the death, burial and resurrection of Christ because that's required for salvation and satan doesn't care if you live a good life as long as you don't believe the truth and go to hell for all of eternity. Even the modern Jews reject Christ unti the time of the gentiles be fulfilled, which is soon.

Ro 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

In order to be saved the bible says that you must:

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Jesus said:

Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Who betrayed Jesus?

Mt 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Mr 3:19 and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. And they went into a house.
Joh 18:2 And Judas, who betrayed Him, also knew the place; for Jesus often met there with His disciples.
Joh 18:5 They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus said to them, "I am He." And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them.

Yet Islam teaches that Judas died on the cross in Christ's place. That's blasphemy. All the devil has to do is get people not to believe in Christ's sacrifice for their sins and they won't get the pardon. In the koran they make up the enemy of God to be the hero of the story. Jesus is also called "the Son of Man" in the bible. Here is what it says about that:

Mr 14:21 "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born."

Secular History much of it written by the enemies of Christ still admit this reality that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead.

Early Secular Writings Regarding Christ

TACITUS(55-117) A.D.Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of on of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the word find their center and become popular.”
PLINY THE YOUNGER: **Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor who wrote a letter to Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worshiped Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government acknowledged Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and set a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sand in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to any wicked deeds, not to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor to deny any trust when they should be call to deliver it up, after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food —but food of an ordinary but and innocent kind.”
**BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary of the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what is a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They could not deny the miracles but claimed that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact.
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a
LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.
LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.
“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”
THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”
Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.
PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.
“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”Africanus, Chronography, 18:1
SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.
“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.
Life of Claudius, 25:4.
In another work Suetonius wrote about the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.
“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”
Lives of the Caesars, 26.2
TOLEDOTH YESHU: (6 Century)
This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus, growing out of the response of the Jewish community to Christianity. The tradition presented here is most commonly dated to approximately the 6th century CE. The text it self is closer to the 14th century.
Mentions the empty tomb and that the Jewish leaders found it empty. That Jesus was crucified on the eve of the Passover and that He claimed to be God. That Jesus performed sorcery, he healed, and that he taught Rabbis. All of this from a hostile source, with the references above it is a historical fact that Jesus did miracles. His enemies could not refute it, rather they explained it away as sorcery!
CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.
JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark:
“As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.
CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.
“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”
IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH: (50-107 A.D.)
Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.
“…nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”
While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.
QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.
“The deeds of our Savior were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”
Eusebius, IV, III
EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.
ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.
“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth.
And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”
Carey, “Aristides,” 68.
JUSTIN MARTYR(106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr is regarded as one of the greatest early Christian apologists. He was born around 100 A.D and was beheaded for his faith in Jesus in 167 A.D. He mentions as facts many things about Jesus and Christianity, such as: The Magi (wise men who brought gifts from Arabia), King Herod, His crucifixion, His garments parted among the Roman soldiers, the apostles leaving him on the night of his arrest, his fulfilled prophecies, His resurrection and His ascending into heaven among many others. These quotes can be found in his debate with Trypho the Jew
HEGESIPPUS]: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”
Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.
TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.
MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).
King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”
Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.
HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
ustin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so.
But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences. And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.JUVENAL: (55 AD-127 AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome.
“But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.”
Satires, 1, lines 147-157.SENECA: (3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.
“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”
HIEROCLES: (AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.
“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,–men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.
ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.
“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape.
For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove.
But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have.
And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death.
Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment.
But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70
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