How to deal with Suicide Bombers and similar Fisadies

[Niksik]

Re: How to deal with Suicide Bombers and similar Fisadies

So we as the muslim people should be united and represent ourselves with uniformity instead of showing support to acts that are not necessarily Islamic but in fact humiliate the beauty and essence of our religion. We as muslims should educate our non muslim friends instead of getting defensive. They will continue to carry out such acts of violence because they are a gone case, but we can try to make the rest of the world understand what our religion actually teaches without trying to justify WHY the suicide bombers act the way they do.

[Sa1eem]

@Niksik

I just have a simple question. Put jihad aside or the motives or passion of these suicide bombers. But is suicide not haraam in Islam? So then is trying to achieve or establish an Islamic fundamental via haraam means justified?

Sister, your answer is that … not only suicide or suicide bombing is haram in Islam, worse is that these people like Lal Masjid goons, Al-Q, Taliban (both Afghan and Pakistan), Mullah Radio Swati, Sectarian militant outfits, Tribal fisadies, they are icon of Kufur and Zulum. They were dealt rightly by Musharraf, though I think Musharraf was a bit lenient towards these thugs.

Musharraf did no atrocities against them. His policies were to fight all who wanted to harm Islam and the country, and were trying to bring their atrocities and zulum over citizens of Pakistan. People like Taliban, AL-Q, Lal Masjid goons, Swati Mullah and Tribal fisadies … all are faces of Kufr and Shaitaniet in clothing of Islam, as they are icon of terrorism, jahaalat, zulum, fitna and fisad. Eliminating them from the face of the earth is a good deed and though Musharraf was a bit slow and lenient when dealing with them in his policies, Musharraf did what was right for Islam and Pakistan.

Prophet (SAW) predicted about the people like Taliban, Al-Q, Lal Masjid goons, Swati Mullah and Tribal fisadies, spreading fitna and fisad amongst Muslims in the name of Islam. As one of the hadith says, even Prophet (SAW) would have acted and killed those who look from outside as pious Muslims but Islam has not entered their heart, thus they kill and harm Muslims as what Taliban and Al-Q was doing throughout in Afghanistan using Islam as excuse, and today these people plus Taliban of Pakistan, Lal Masjid goons, Mullah Radio of Swat, Tribal fisadis, Sectarian armies in Pakistan, etc … are doing the same in Pakistan using Islam as excuse. These people are dangerous for Islam as well as Muslims, as they spread fitna and fisad in the name of Islam, and thus should get slaughtered. Read the Hadith from Bukhari.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/h…ri/055.sbt.html
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 558:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet said, “I have been made victorious with As-Saba (i.e. an easterly wind) and the people of 'Ad were destroyed by Ad-Dabur (i.e. a westerly wind).” Narrated Abu Said: Ali sent a piece of gold to the Prophet who distributed it among four persons: Al-Aqra’ bin Habis Al-Hanzali from the tribe of Mujashi, 'Uyaina bin Badr Al-Fazari, Zaid At-Ta’i who belonged to (the tribe of) Bani Nahban, and 'Alqama bin Ulatha Al-‘Amir who belonged to (the tribe of) Bani Kilab. So the Quraish and the Ansar became angry and said, “He (i.e. the Prophet, ) gives the chief of Najd and does not give us.” The Prophet said, “I give them) so as to attract their hearts (to Islam).” Then a man with sunken eyes, prominent checks, a raised forehead, a thick beard and a shaven head, came (in front of the Prophet ) and said, “Be afraid of Allah, O Muhammad!” The Prophet ’ said “Who would obey Allah if I disobeyed Him? (Is it fair that) Allah has trusted all the people of the earth to me while, you do not trust me?” Somebody who, I think was Khalid bin Al-Walid, requested the Prophet to let him chop that man’s head off, but he prevented him. When the man left, the Prophet said, "Among the off-spring of this man will be some who will recite the Qur’an but the Qur’an will not reach beyond their throats (i.e. they will recite like parrots and will not understand it nor act on it), and they will renegade from the religion as an arrow goes through the game’s body. They will kill the Muslims but will not disturb the idolaters. If I should live up to their time’ I will kill them as the people of 'Ad were killed (i.e. I will kill all of them)."

[ehtasab]

Musharraf did no atrocities against them. His policies were to **fight all who wanted to harm Islam **and the country, and were trying to bring their atrocities and zulum over citizens of Pakistan. People like Taliban, AL-Q, Lal Masjid goons, Swati Mullah and Tribal fisadies ... all are faces of Kufr and Shaitaniet in clothing of Islam, as they are icon of terrorism, jahaalat, zulum, fitna and fisad. Eliminating them from the face of the earth is a good deed and though Musharraf was a bit slow and lenient when dealing with them in his policies, Musharraf did what was right for Islam and Pakistan.

It would more sense if you remove the word "harm Islam" from your para above. Someone who attends mujra/dance parties on one hand and fighting to save Islam on the other? I disagree there.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

I just have a simple question. Put jihad aside or the motives or passion of these suicide bombers. But is suicide not haraam in Islam? So then is trying to achieve or establish an Islamic fundamental via haraam means justified?

There are fatwas put out there by some scholars that state "martyrdom bombings" are not a form of suicide, and therefore are permitted. Usually the only caveat is that access to conventional arms suchs as airplanes, bombs, missiles, tanks, must not be available first. These are the fatwas followed by those who do suicide bombings.

[Sa1eem]

It would more sense if you remove the word "harm Islam" from your para above. Someone who attends mujra/dance parties on one hand and fighting to save Islam on the other? I disagree there.

You do not have to agree, this is matter of opinion. Anyhow, I would like to defend your right not to agree with me, and expect the same from you. So, we should agree to disagree ... no problem :).

[Niksik]

Re: How to deal with Suicide Bombers and similar Fisadies

Were these fatwas declared before the first such bombings or afterwards?

[Aliyish]

Re: How to deal with Suicide Bombers and similar Fisadies

Gar JanG laazmi hai Tu phir JanG hii sahii ....

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

So we as the muslim people should be united and represent ourselves with uniformity instead of showing support to acts that are not necessarily Islamic but in fact humiliate the beauty and essence of our religion. We as muslims should educate our non muslim friends instead of getting defensive. They will continue to carry out such acts of violence because they are a gone case, but we can try to make the rest of the world understand what our religion actually teaches without trying to justify WHY the suicide bombers act the way they do.

To expand on my post above, when you have some scholars saying that suicide bombings are allowed (Sheikh Yousuf Al-Qaradawi, a widely followed Egyptian scholar who is said to be affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt
s main opposition movement, rules that suicide bombings against Israel by palestinians are not haraam) , why should a western audience believe your view that islam forbids it instead of the view of these scholars?

Trying to explain things to a western audience is pointless. Giving your full and public moral backing to government efforts to hunt down and exterminate the organizations that arrange suicide attacks is more useful.

[Niksik]

Re: How to deal with Suicide Bombers and similar Fisadies

^^ Good point.

So how does someone like me do that

[Sa1eem]

There are fatwas put out there by some scholars that state "martyrdom bombings" are not a form of suicide, and therefore are permitted. Usually the only caveat is that access to conventional arms suchs as airplanes, bombs, missiles, tanks, must not be available first. These are the fatwas followed by those who do suicide bombings.

Obviously there would be fitwa of this type. No doubt, these fisadis have backing of ulema-e-sue who are ulema of this Shaitanic cult. They would obviously defend this Shaitanic cult religion and their actions, as their own beliefs are Shaitanic too.

Anyhow, suicide or Khudkushi means ... killing oneself intentionally and that could be done by any means. If a person acts with intention of killing himself than that action is suicide, regardless of that person lives or die. Intention before getting killed is important. As long as there is an iota bit of chance in the belief of the person (rightly or wrongly) that his initiated action may not kill him and he might live, than that action can be classified as not suicide even though it may look like suicide to others. But there is no chance that a person blowing himself could not be called suicide.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

@Niksik

^^ Good point.

So how does someone like me do that

There is little that someone like you can do except drive awareness that terrorist activity is rejected by most muslim scholars and that there is an intellectual struggle going on between moderate and radical theologists.

Ultimately this is an internal struggle within the Muslim world that will end when radical maulvis who are allowing people to do suicide bombings have either been persuaded to reject their views or have been killed.

[Agent_Smith]

@Sa1eem

Well, most blow themselves thinking they are doing Islamic duty. But when they will find themselves barred from calling themselves Muslim, they would think and would question. Then they would learn the truth that they are misguided. If they would know that they are misguided, they would stop doing all the Fisads they are involved.

Well most of them do it because of social and political reason. Remind you that suicide bombing was first carried out by Tamil separatists in Sri Lanka who are Hindus NOT Muslims. So the whole thing that there is a religious motive behind suicide bombing is just bunch of hogwash.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Anyhow, suicide or Khudkushi means ... killing oneself intentionally and that could be done by any means. If a person acts with intention of killing himself than that action is suicide, regardless of that person lives or die. Intention before getting killed is important. As long as there is an iota bit of chance in the belief of the person (rightly or wrongly) that his initiated action may not kill him and he might live, than that action can be classified as not suicide even though it may look like suicide to others. But there is no chance that a person blowing himself could not be called suicide.

Not that I support these radicals, but the logic they use to rule suicide bombing as permitted is rooted in the Islamic principle that neccessity overrides prohibition.

In this case, the logic used is that suicide is definately haraam, and ordinarily strapping explosive to yourself and letting them off would be a grave sin. But if in a jihad, you lack effective weapons to fight, and suicide bombings are the most effective means at hand, then they are no longer haraam.

These rulings were rooted in the Israeli-Palestine conflict. Israel had planes and helicopters and tanks that could make targetted attacks anywhere in the Palestians lands and cities, and the Palestinians had none of these. The only effective explosive delivery mechanism they had was the human body. Back then, scholars ruled that this neccessity meant suicide bombing was ok.

Today, we are seeing so-called "jihads" being waged even against Muslim societies such as Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq, but the same logic of fatwas has been applied.

As I mentioned before, the only solution is to get to Maulvis and imams propounding extremist views, and get them to renounce those views or kill them.

Frankly, this is how the Ottoman Khalifat deal with extremists such as those from Arabia who raided Shia shrines in Ottoman-controlled Iraq. This is the model that just be applied today.

[Sa1eem]

Well most of them do it because of social and political reason. Remind you that suicide bombing was first carried out by Tamil separatists in Sri Lanka who are Hindus NOT Muslims. So the whole thing that there is a religious motive behind suicide bombing is just bunch of hogwash.

Well, no one does suicide for no reason. All do suicide for some reasons, be that economical, social, political or whatever. So what, no one is arguing about that.

Suicide is act of desperation and show lack of belief on Allah, who has control on all things and whoever believes on Allah could not do suicide. According to Islam, all sort of suicide is Haram and anyone who believes that suicide is allowed because of any reasons are 'not Muslim'. Anyone who died doing suicide dies a death of an unbeliever.

[Sa1eem]

Not that I support these radicals, but the logic they use to rule suicide bombing as permitted is rooted in the Islamic principle that neccessity overrides prohibition.

In this case, the logic used is that suicide is definately haraam, and ordinarily strapping explosive to yourself and letting them off would be a grave sin. But if in a jihad, you lack effective weapons to fight, and suicide bombings are the most effective means at hand, then they are no longer haraam.

These rulings were rooted in the Israeli-Palestine conflict. Israel had planes and helicopters and tanks that could make targetted attacks anywhere in the Palestians lands and cities, and the Palestinians had none of these. The only effective explosive delivery mechanism they had was the human body. Back then, scholars ruled that this neccessity meant suicide bombing was ok.

Today, we are seeing so-called "jihads" being waged even against Muslim societies such as Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq, but the same logic of fatwas has been applied.

As I mentioned before, the only solution is to get to Maulvis and imams propounding extremist views, and get them to renounce those views or kill them.

Frankly, this is how the Ottoman Khalifat deal with extremists such as those from Arabia who raided Shia shrines in Ottoman-controlled Iraq. This is the model that just be applied today.

Brother, I know the background of suicide bombing. Anyhow, whatever the background, there is no doubt that all sorts of suicide are haram act. Whoever believes on any type of suicide as Allowed in Islam does not believe on Allah, so that person is not Muslim. There are logical reasons for suicide being haram.

For instance: Let say 'A' believes that whatever happening is in the hand of Allah and he as individual is not running the world but doing his duty and going through test by Allah whereas the world around him is his testing ground. For him, this world situation should not matter as he would recognise that he himself is going through the test (similar to anyone else around him, be they Muslim or non-Muslim). For him, he would try his best according to his ability, but would not go beyond a limit in trying for that, as Allah has put a limit in front of him. This person would not break rules of Allah. Obviously, such person would believe that his actions are part of test, and though he is responsible of his actions, any change that happens because of his actions was not actually due to his actions but due to will of Allah.

If Palestinians are going to get independence than they can try their best and hardest, but independence would come when Allah would will so (that is Iman of a Muslim). So, a person struggling would try his best, but would never do suicide to get that change, as change does not depend on his actions but will of Allah. Suicide also knocks a person out of test and shows that the person has no belief on Allah or on the will of Allah, but tried to change things with his haram actions believing that his haram actions may give result, not accepting that result is not dependent on his actions but on the will of Allah (mean ... the person have no Iman on Allah and his will ... and if did suicide, he would die as unbeliever).

Same is true of suicide due to economical reasons, failure in life, failure in love or failure in business. If a person believes that Allah is in control of all good and bad, than that person would accept all successes and failures as test from Allah, and would never do suicide to get out of the situation.

My simple question for those who might have any doubt that suicide could be allowed is that ... what a Muslim should believe? Is it suicide that can give result or will of Allah?

From what I know: If anyone believes that result depends on suicide bombing than it shows that the person does not believe on Allah. As for those who believe that result comes because of will of Allah than such person would do every struggle (accepting that struggle as test) but would never do suicide to bring changes.

[vigoratus]

Re: How to deal with Suicide Bombers and similar Fisadies

The way to eliminate such acts from occuring is to eliminate the root cause of them. Hopelessness!!!

Give the people and their families decent earning, think for the better of your own nation and not serve other nations' interests and start a rigorous campaign to win hearts and minds. When people have a bright future to look towards, they'll work for the better of their future which in turn will serve the nation well. Why do you think most youths and just about anyone wants to leave Pakistan? 1. Lawlessness 2. Corruption 3. No appreciation for hardwork and lack of recognition. And so much more....the entire system is corroded and needs tuning by honest leaders who want to serve the nation whole-heartedly. When you have dishonest politicians/leaders who have no interest in the nation and have spent or spend their lives outside the country, then you cannot have a healthy nation because their hearts and minds are elsewhere still. Everywhere you look everyone's crying...bad leaders..bad politicians...so you would think that could be a part of the problem.

There is no one solution, a combination might just suffice.

Often those committ suicide are not even in the grasp of their own mind and sanity let alone the safety of others or the harm it will inflict upon the muslims that will be slain as a result of this. So it's really a matter of rooting out the core problem (be it issues or individuals), and the cause must be resolved. The nation must be onboard with all that takes place because this has to be a collective effort.

[ehtasab]

The way to eliminate such acts from occuring is to eliminate the root cause of them. Hopelessness!!!

Give the people and their families decent earning, think for the better of your own nation and not serve other nations' interests and start a rigorous campaign to win hearts and minds. When people have a bright future to look towards, they'll work for the better of their future which in turn will serve the nation well. Why do you think most youths and just about anyone wants to leave Pakistan? 1. Lawlessness 2. Corruption 3. No appreciation for hardwork and lack of recognition. And so much more....the entire system is corroded and needs tuning by honest leaders who want to serve the nation whole-heartedly. When you have dishonest politicians/leaders who have no interest in the nation and have spent or spend their lives outside the country, then you cannot have a healthy nation because their hearts and minds are elsewhere still. Everywhere you look everyone's crying...bad leaders..bad politicians...so you would think that could be a part of the problem.

There is no one solution, a combination might just suffice.

Often those committ suicide are not even in the grasp of their own mind and sanity let alone the safety of others or the harm it will inflict upon the muslims that will be slain as a result of this. So it's really a matter of rooting out the core problem (be it issues or individuals), and the cause must be resolved. The nation must be onboard with all that takes place because this has to be a collective effort.

Those carrying out suicide bombing are not necessarily from poor backgrounds. There are people who left their family business and joined the ranks. So "economics" doesn't weigh that much.

[ehtasab]

I just have a simple question. Put jihad aside or the motives or passion of these suicide bombers. But is suicide not haraam in Islam? So then is trying to achieve or establish an Islamic fundamental via haraam means justified?

Just to add a little spice, Pakistan army had their own suicide bombers in a war against India, our army jawan jumped under Indian tank with bombs to destroy their tanks... this is from my memory of some teacher telling us stories of 1965 war (I think).

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Just to add a little spice, Pakistan army had their own suicide bombers in a war against India, our army jawan jumped under Indian tank with bombs to destroy their tanks... this is from my memory of some teacher telling us stories of 1965 war (I think).

I keep hearing variations on that story but it never seems to come up in official military history.

Not to mention that even the bottom of tanks built in WW2 and beyond are sufficiently armoured that the amount of explosive a person can put on themselves would do no damage to them.

Running under a tank and blowing yourself up would be glorious looking but ultimately vain. The Russians used to try the same thing against Nazi tanks with convicts and dogs and gave up because it had no effect.

[Shamraz_Khan]

...but the logic they use to rule suicide bombing as permitted is rooted in the Islamic principle that necessity overrides prohibition.

Well, you're allowed to eat pork if your starving to death, but thats only if you're about to die. The principle of "necessity overrides prohibition" only applies in that kind of situation. Suicide is haraam & if you can show me anywhere in Islamic history where it was used in war I will buy the necessity doctrine. It simply does not exist & what these people are doing is totally against Islam, and that too in killing other muslims.