How to curb sectarianism in the country?

[Himalaya]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

The for points you have broken down are not on an equal level at all.

Not all Deobandis regard Shia as kafir. On that same subject i know some Barelvis who are closest sect to Shias who regard them and Deobandis as kafir. Some Shias regard Aga Khanis as kafir.

Plus you cant put Khoemini a product of the last 50 years in the same boat as the Sahaba.

@Prince_Ali

We CAN'T.

The fact of the matter is, all 72 sects of Islam have differences. Our ulema/scholars need to sit together and resolve differences. Let me break it down.

Sunnis believe that Prophet (PBUH) is alive in HIS roza mobarak. Wahabis believe that it's haraam to say "Ya Mohammad". Shias believe that Hazrat Ali (R.A) is the first Caliph. Deobandis believe that Shias are kafir.

Till the time we don't resolve differences among our main sects, peace can't be restored in Pakistan.

How can shias openly abuse Sahaba (R.A) and get away with it? How can sunnis openly abuse Khomeini and get away with it?

[Himalaya]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

They come from the front line and their areas were used as a front line against the Russians by the Pakistani Army and America. They have been bombarded with this ideology and now we are bearing the fruit of this cultural genocide that took place. By the way I am not sure if more of them are in madrassah than say people from Punjab.

@Iconoclast

And being wary of sounding too ethnic, may i ask a question?

Why there are so many students from KPK, FATA and Afghanistan, studying in madrassas all across the country?

I may be wrong but i suspect that these kids are easily brainwashed and perpetuate religious intolerance.

[Doppleganger]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

How to curb sectarianism? Include everything under blasphemy, no hate literature allowed, no takfir allowed, no cursing of any religious figure allowed, ... BUT the blasphemy should be "provable", if not provable then the accuser will be punished by blasphemy laws.

No outside loudspeaker allowed, only for adhan... strictly for adhan, nothing else.

People need to calm the f* down. Arrest anyone who sets fire etc and prosecute them to the fullest. That will set an example like it does in the west.

[Captain1]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

People need to calm the f* down. Arrest anyone who sets fire etc and prosecute them to the fullest. That will set an example like it does in the west.

That should've always been done that, lack of law enforcement gives strengths to rats aka extremists.

[Prince_Ali]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

The for points you have broken down are not on an equal level at all.

Not all Deobandis regard Shia as kafir. On that same subject i know some Barelvis who are closest sect to Shias who regard them and Deobandis as kafir. Some Shias regard Aga Khanis as kafir.

Plus you cant put Khoemini a product of the last 50 years in the same boat as the Sahaba.

They were short examples. The list on sectarianism differences in never ending.
Shias (Khomeini) vs Sunnis (Sahaba)

Shias have alot of respect for Khomeini.
Deobandis/Sunnis/Wahhabi hate Khomeini because he has called Hazrat Umer (R.A) a kafir, nauzbillah.

I remember in 1994, during Benazir govt when SSP (then a legal political party), had asked for a ban on Iranian literature being imported into Pakistan.

[Dhoti_Main_Dhamaka]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

We need a watchdog who keeps eye on madrassas their curriculum,qualifications of teachers and sources of funding and how the funds are being used in madrassas.
Like Kidnap & Ransom death penalty for those who use religion for their own churan faroshi.

[Doppleganger]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

I think mubashir luqman mentioned this before, but why do we need so many iranian embassies and consulates in Pakistan where Pakistan only has one embassy in Iran?

Let iran and saudi fight their wars in Persian / Arabian Gulf.

[Jafri]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

First of all I don't even know why Khomeini is being compared to the Sahaba in this thread. Not every Shia likes Khomeini and the IR. Idolizing the IR was a thing of the past generation, and there is a rise in Shia youth who do not agree with his vision.

I agree that loudspeakers should be restricted to the azaan only, but for the regard of other people. Not everyone wants to hear majalis blaring out of a speaker, especially when a maulana is screaming to get his point across. It is an inconsiderate move.

Regarding the juloos, many of you would be speaking differently had the Sunni majority stuck onto this custom. Sunnis took out their own juloos with taaziye in all parts of India before Partition, and many continue to do so. It was only in Pakistan where Sunnis stopped, hence the loss of connection with this centuries old practice. I thought Shias came to Pakistan under the belief that it would be an open ground for them to practice their faith freely as Muslims. On a personal level, I would not mind if the juloos was banned, but this is a practice that has been with us for over 1,000 years and passes down with each generation. When terrorists blow themselves up in a juloos, they aren't attempting to say the juloos should be banned, they are making a statement on the legitimacy of shedding Shia blood. Instead of banning the juloos, you should be attacking the real issue at hand, because these terrorists can just as easily attack and torch Imambargahs and homes.

[Captain1]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

First of all I don't even know why Khomeini is being compared to the Sahaba in this thread. Not every Shia likes Khomeini and the IR. Idolizing the IR was a thing of the past generation, and there is a rise in Shia youth who do not agree with his vision.

I agree, I did not even know people hate Khomeini.

Regarding the juloos, many of you would be speaking differently had the Sunni majority stuck onto this custom. Sunnis took out their own juloos with taaziye in all parts of India before Partition, and many continue to do so. It was only in Pakistan where Sunnis stopped, hence the loss of connection with this centuries old practice. I thought Shias came to Pakistan under the belief that it would be an open ground for them to practice their faith freely as Muslims. On a personal level, I would not mind if the juloos was banned, but this is a practice that has been with us for over 1,000 years and passes down with each generation. When terrorists blow themselves up in a juloos, they aren't attempting to say the juloos should be banned, they are making a statement on the legitimacy of shedding Shia blood. Instead of banning the juloos, you should be attacking the real issue at hand, because these terrorists can just as easily attack and torch Imambargahs and homes.

There are "Sunnis" who still do the "juloos" but they are 2nd part of Sunnis i.e Brelvis... Deobandis never had any juloos to my knowledge. Yes the real issue must be addressed and people need to learn to coexist, but before getting to larger population learning that we need to stop all kinds of religious activities in outdoors unless it is far away from city/population.

[Jafri]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

@Captain1

There are "Sunnis" who still do the "juloos" but they are 2nd part of Sunnis i.e Brelvis... Deobandis never had any juloos to my knowledge. Yes the real issue must be addressed and people need to learn to coexist, but before getting to larger population learning that we need to stop all kinds of religious activities in outdoors unless it is far away from city/population.

I am talking about before Deobandis and Barelvis entered the scene. Prior to the 1800s, the juloos was also central to Sunni Muslims in India on Ashura. And even after these movements came about, plenty of Sunnis who did not ascribe themselves to either took part in their own Sunni-only juloos. These are non-Barelvis I am talking about.

Pakistan helped solidify a separate, pure Sunni identity to exclude the juloos from their religion.

So are you saying people cannot learn to coexist without banning dearly held centuries old customs? What did Shias come to Pakistan for then?

[Sa1eem]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

@Captain1

I agree, I did not even know people hate Khomeini.

There are "Sunnis" who still do the "juloos" but they are 2nd part of Sunnis i.e Brelvis... Deobandis never had any juloos to my knowledge. Yes the real issue must be addressed and people need to learn to coexist, but before getting to larger population learning that we need to stop all kinds of religious activities in outdoors unless it is far away from city/population.

Kewn Bhai? Is Pakistan jageer of those who want (or are demanding) that people do not celebrate or mourn on streets?

As for all this mayhem and killing, it is nothing to do with Juloos but it is to do with criminal sectarian mindset of a group who need to be taken to task, by law.

Most sectarian killings happening in Pakistan at homes, at works, in markets, on streets, in mosques, in imam-bargah, in schools, in colleges, in madrasas, in mazars, while travelling on buses, etc. Gatherings are getting targeted regardless of it is happening inside or outside closed areas.

So fearing sectarian criminals, should Pakistan stop people living at home, go to work, go to markets, walk on streets, go to mosque, go to Imam-bargah, go to schools, go to colleges, go to madrasas, stop visiting mazars (rather demolish all mazars), stop travelling on buses, do not hold any gatherings ... so that those with sectarian criminal minds could not get chance to create Fitna and fasad in the country?

What this thought rape is going on?

What should be done is, we need law making takfeer, hate speeches, hate literature, and inciting to kill, capital punishment ... and this law should be clear without any loop holes ... get arrested in spreading sectarian hate or takfeer (a cause used by these terrorists to justify killing) ... and get into fast track justice system resulting in the culprit getting hanged ... no appeal, no let-go, no leniency and no alternative ...

And if someone got caught who claims that he got taught or indoctrinated by someone than teacher or mentor of that culprit should also get the same punishment (death by hanging), whoever that teacher maybe, Mufti or Mullah, Ayatullah or Fazlullah. ... if anyone spread hate they should be sent to their creator who would decide if they deserve to get 40 hoors or 40 churails.

That is called Zero tolerance ... that is needed for Pakistan to get some peace from Fitna and Fasad.

[Captain1]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

read my prior post

[Ali_Syed]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

Banning things is not the solution to the issue, we will learn to coexist. The routes of the jaloos need to be re evaluated and use of loudspeakers need to be monitored.

[goodname]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

The ongoing Pakistan's reprehensible Shia/Hazara genocide and the deliberate target killings in Pakistan of doctors and professors having names that, wait for it, sound a bit Shia-like are bad enough. No need to make it even worse for them in Pakistan by banning their processions too.

The government of Pakistan needs to improve its woefully inadequate law-enforcement and protect its citizens instead of surrendering to extremists and subordinating minorities. There’s also a massive campaign needed in Pakistan to clamp down on all kinds of hatred as well as religious fanaticism that pose an existential threat to the country. The people in Pakistan, moreover, should be constantly reminded through media, schooling, and representatives of whatever institutions they hold dear about the need to appreciate unity in diversity and to respect humanity.

[Captain1]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

Banning things is not the solution to the issue, we will learn to coexist. The routes of the jaloos need to be re evaluated and use of loudspeakers need to be monitored.

Banning is only a precautionary measure until people actually learn to coexist, until the hate is curbed. Its idealistic approach to start teaching now without banning street practice of religious culture and expect people to not provoke each other. Its not an electronic switch you can just turn it on or off.

[bao_bihari]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

Banning things is not the solution to the issue, we will learn to coexist. The routes of the jaloos need to be re evaluated and use of loudspeakers need to be monitored.

Why insisting on some thing that has much more harm then benefit, rather it does not have any religious significance.At ax it can be cosnidered as mubah to have jalsas relating to ashura,rabiulawal or deobandi ijtimaats.

ban every such thing untill we learn how to respect each other, not to abuse others and not to say kafir kafir to each other. this is the only feasable solution.

[Prince_Ali]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

Not every Shia likes Khomeini and the IR.

I have yet to see a shia that dislikes Khomeini.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

Why insisting on some thing that has much more harm then benefit, rather it does not have any religious significance.At ax it can be cosnidered as mubah to have jalsas relating to ashura,rabiulawal or deobandi ijtimaats.

ban every such thing untill we learn how to respect each other, not to abuse others and not to say kafir kafir to each other. this is the only feasable solution.

Banning is only a precautionary measure until people actually learn to coexist, until the hate is curbed. Its idealistic approach to start teaching now without banning street practice of religious culture and expect people to not provoke each other. Its not an electronic switch you can just turn it on or off.

I dont see azadari being banned, therefore we will have to check other options. For argument purposes if we say that azadari is banned, the buck wont stop there. Tomorrow it would be something else.

The dangerous thing is the extremism thats growing in all sects, which needs to be tackled.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

6:159

[RIGHT]

[/RIGHT]
Sahih International
Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

[Sa1eem]

Re: How to curb sectarianism in the country?

Why insisting on some thing that has much more harm then benefit, rather it does not have any religious significance.At ax it can be cosnidered as mubah to have jalsas relating to ashura,rabiulawal or deobandi ijtimaats.

ban every such thing untill we learn how to respect each other, not to abuse others and not to say kafir kafir to each other. this is the only feasable solution.

Bhai jaan ... Do you mean to say that …

Since a group of people may not like people talking against visiting graves, talking and preaching people against Urs, Niaz, fatiha, and many practices other believes and do, talking and preaching against celebrating Eid-e-Milad-ul-Nabi, showing remorse on Muharram, considering Prophet (SAW) as dead and considering that saying Ya-Rasul-Allah (or calling anyone who has died considering that death of people close to Allah is just cover-up) as kufr, doing gasht pestering people at their home with their beliefs, and so on … then

Pakistan should ban Tableeghi ijtimah and their tableeghi gasht … and ban Deobandis (plus similar sects) from preaching in open?

Or you mean to say that Tableeghi ijtimah, gasht and Deobandi preachings should stay until people who have ‘ekhtalaf’ with them and do not like them become so retard that they start giving fatwa of kufr on them as a whole, start calling them Kafir as a whole, start shooting at them and blowing themselves to kill them? … and then when such start happening, ban Tableeghi ijtmah, gasht and deobandi preachings ... at least until time these retards who may start killing come to their senses …

Or you have some other reasons not to ban them tableeghi gasht and gatherings (if you do not want them to get banned)?

Note: As far as I am concerned, I believe that whatever any group or sects do without interfering with others' beliefs, abusing others directly (not what others consider as holy but others physically), not labelling others to create hate or danger for them (like labelling them Kafir, grave worshippers, Gustakh-e-Rasul, Murtad etc), without becoming danger for others physically (physically fighting them, shooting at them to kill or become suicide bomber), then all sects do whatever they like and those who have opposing beliefs should keep their opposing beliefs to themselves … living peacefully and not spreading hate.

Else … believe me, there are many reasons for each sects to call others Kafir or Murtad (especially for Berelvis and Shias to consider and label Deobandis and wahabi sects) … and making that as an excuse to kill others. That is obvious too, because most what Berelvies (or Shias) believe, Deobandis, tableeghis and Wahabis not only do not believe but use their own beliefs to label them and even kill Berelvies (and Shias). But killing by Berelvis is under control because most of their ulemas, especially eminent Ulemas who have influence, do not incite people on belief differences … and also urge people to stay calm and not use belief differences to become physical.

I assure you that the hate I have seen amongst many Sunni (traditional Sunni ... or Berelvi) ulemas towards deobandis and like (deobandis, tableeghis, and wahabis) is such that explosion is not unimaginable. Hate (that I think unjustifiable) is so bad that I have met some Sunni Ulemas with seemingly valid daleel to them, who consider praying behind Deobandi, Tableeghi or Wahabi imam invalid (even praying during Hajj behind Imam-e-Kaba is invalid to them) and nikah with them not allowed (even though they would consider nikah with Shia and even praying behind Shia Imam valid though with some reservation). Many (rather most) of them ulemas consider (rightly or wrongly) that Deobandi, Tableeghi, Wahabi are sects about whom Prophet (SAW) warned as 'Najdi sect of last days' who outwardly would be staunch practicing Muslims but inwardly would be out of Islam, against whom jihad is ordered, as they would kill Muslims and would create Fitna and Fasad on earth.

So the day they (Berelvis and Shias) would go mentally retard and start killing sects they do not like on basis of their own beliefs, than Pakistan would get engulfed into uncontrollable flame with unstoppable killings and mayhem.