Re: How to address Hz. Ali (RA)
hey…isn’t the Sunni position pro-tawaasul too???
The verses refer to Shafaa'ah on the Day of Judgment.
As for Waseelah, I don't think using intermediaries to Allah is right.
Allah should be approached directly, we can use our prayers, worship, righteous deeds and the Holy Names of Allah as a Waseelah but using the Prophets (pbut), the Martyrs or the Saints as an intermediary is to me Christianity or Arab-Paganism under the guise of Islam, the Arab-Pagans also considered Allah the Supreme Lord and Creator and maintained their idols of pious men were merely their intercessors with Him.
“They worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: “These are only our intercessors with Allah.”
(Intrepretation of the meaning of the Noble Quran 10:18)
Nosherwan, there are verses in the Holy Quran, specifically for the Shifaat on day of judgement, like the following:
[20:109] On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with
Using conjectures and "i think" will not help the discussion move forward.
No one is saying that Allah (swt) should not be reached directly.
The idols that the Quraysh used were man-made. Allah (swt) Himself has chosen the Prophet (saww) the "mercy for all mankind", Imam Ali the "guardian of the believers", Imam Hasan and Hussain "prince of the youth in paradise", Fatima Zahra the "chief of the women of the worlds". And made obligatory for all the believers to love them and to follow them. Can you see a BIG difference?
I would like to know that too.
Everything I know from the Quran and our Sunni Sunnah suggests that supplicating to other than Allah (whether as an intermediary or as an independent helper) is wrong and forbidden and the only proper form of supplication is to call upon our Lord Allah directly.
I have never seen any solid proof from the Quraan or our Sunni Sunnah to suggest that taking intermediaries to Allah is permissible or encouraged, those that do justify it will only do so by misquoting and misintrepreting verses and narrations to prove their point.
...
The Quran quite clearly says intercession occurs only by Allah's (swt) permission. But all help is from Allah (Swt) at the end. When Allah (swt) helps by Angels , he attributes the help of Angels as help of the divine. So for example, if Prophet (saww) is asked to help, it's the same, it's Allah's (swt) help. It's by his light and permission and pleasure and power. Prophet (saww), Imam Ali, Imam Hasan, Imam Hussain, Fatima Zahra, CAN NOT act as independent helpers.
Like we read in the books that once Imam Ali (as) was sharing a bread with an old man. Imam Ali (as) struggled to break the old bread. The old man was puzzled and asked " O Ali! did you not lift the door of Khyber and now the same hands can not break a bread?"
Imam Ali (as) smiled and said "that day you witnessed the power of Allah (swt), and this is the power of Ali ".
Tawheed is all about seeing the Source as the Glorified in all Glory, the Sole Worshipped and Praised by all praise while beyond all glory. Nothing having anything of it's own, no power, no will, no greatness, but Allah's (swt).
There are different sub-sects within Sunnism, just like within Shiahism you have Akhbari, Usuli, Zaidi, Ismaili, Bohri, Ithna-Ashari, Alawi etc.
I don’t like to subscribe to any particular sect (I guess I’ll be considered Sunni by default because I believe in the Sunni version of Sunnah) and from what I’ve read of the Quran and the Sunni Ahadeeth there is nothing which suggests that using intermediaries to Allah is allowed or encouraged, all the evidence I’ve seen seems to forbid it.
I have read the arguments of the ones who try to justify intermediaries but their arguments and reasoning is very shaky and flimsy, it’s always the same old tactics, a combination of illogical-logic, emotion, misintrepreted and misquoted verses which either refer to Shafaa’ah on the Day of Judgment, asking the Prophet 
to ask forgiveness when he was on this earth or weak, fabricated and/or out of context Ahadeeth.
Never seen no solid Daleel (proof) from the Quran or the Sunnah in which Allah The Exalted, the Prophet , the Sahaabah (radhi Allaahu anhum) or the Ahl Al-Bait (radhi Allaahu anhum) ever said “thou shalt not approach Allaah directly for thou art too sinful and fall short of His glory so take an intercessor unto him”… If anything the Quran and the Teachings of the Prophet , his Family (radhi Allaahu anhum) and Companions (radhi Allaahu anhum) seem to teach that supplicate and worship Allah directly.
I’ve seen how one things leads to the next with Waseelah, it’s subtle at first but becomes blatant polytheism.
Re: How to address Hz. Ali (RA)
^ what is the position of the 4 Sunni Imams in regards to turning to the Prophet and his progeny?..........is there any fatwa from them in this regard?
did the imams ever countenance such tawasul? cite any hadith or quotation from Nahjul-balagha or sayings of any other imams. im not suggesting anything yet. just interested whether this practise was recommended by the imams. also what do you say about the supplication of Nade-Ali which goes as follows:
Call Ali! Call Ali! Call aloud to Ali! Who is the epiphanic source of wonders You shall surely find him helping in your troubles All grief and anxiety will disappear By Your power and Authority! O Ali! O Ali! O Ali!
Was this supplication of the imams?
This is not a supplication of the Imam, but more a poem about Imam Ali (as).
As for tawassul, if you understood what it meant, you would know it has nothing to do with shirk. Please read dua e tawassul, and you will get the picture. The Ahlubayt (as) are shaheed, they are alive as Allah (swt) says in the Quran, but you can not percieve them.
No Imams or Prophet have greater power or authority than God (that much is clear shirk), however they can and do intercede on our behalf, in this world, in the grave and in the hereafter.
Thier position of closeness to Allah (swt) means that these Holy people praying on our behalf have a better chance of having our prayer accepted and our sins forgiven as opposed to sinful people like ourselves...it is the same reason people will ask other people (especially religious people) to pray for them, perchance God will accept their prayers more readily.
During the time of the Propeht (saw), a newly converted muslim informed the mekkans of a surprise attack being planned by the muslims. Hazrat Gibrail decended to inform the Prophet of the converts' action. When he was confronted, he was really ashamed of his action and tied himself in repentace to a palm tree which was also a pillar in the Masjid e nabwi.
For days or perhaps weeks, he remained there, begging for forgiveness, until Hazrat Gibrail decended with a message to the Prophet that Allah had forgiven the action of this man. At that point, the Prophet (saw) told the others that had this man gone though me, Allah would have accepted his tawbah more quickly. That tree by the way, is now a permanent concrete pillar in Masjid e Nabawi, with the given name of the pillar of tawba.
That is the basis of tawassul and that is the system that we use, in our daily salah, in our duas, and when we visit for the graves of these peoples, we pray to them to pray for us, and we pray to Allah (swt) to accept our prayers for the sake of these poeple, and that is tawassul in its essense. With that understanding, saying Ya Ali madad, is seeking intercession from God, when you know ultimately it is God that provides. Shirk does not even come into it.
Finally, there are countless ahadith from Ahlul Bayt (as) stating that our intercession will never reach certain people due to certain actions. And then you also have the hadith that innocent children will intercede on behalf of thier parents, and pious husbands will intercede for thier spouse in the hereafter and vice versa. So the intercession system is definately there for us, now and even later, its only the smart ones who are lucky enough to avail it.
If thats the sort of daleel you are looking for then you are never going to find it, becuase there is nothing ultimately wrong with asking Allah directly, and one is free to do so to his utmost…however there is nothing forbidden about using waseela, and infact is deemed more beneficial using it rather than not.
Dont forget, even asking directly, you can use tawassul, in the form of ‘for the sake of your AhlulBayt…’, as there is no contradiction between the two. It is an assumption on you’re part, that tawssul believing people cannot ask directly, they can too and easily so, but that doesnt stop them from using tawassul, whether they pray directly or indirectly via His chosen ones, that is thier choice. And in my opinion tawassul is by far, the better choice.
That is not really a logical excuse to abstain from what is allowed, that my friend can lead to blatant paranoia, and if that was a real worry, the kabah would not be designated as God’s House, for fear of idol worshipping.
You can see what happens when that mentality sets in, where many places of significance have been demolished in saudi, and if it were upto them, they probably wouldnt allow the kaba to stand for fear of shirk. It starts to get dangerous when you try being a thought police and attempt to assume or control how other people think. That is actually the first step of disintegration..
Re: How to address Hz. Ali (RA)
i think this shows weakness in our eman we are asking Hazrat Ali for help by calling muskhil kusha......... the person who struggled through out his life and specially during his calphship.
why dont we ask allah for His help
wah nahno aqroobo allehe min hub lil warid
(Al Quran)
Re: How to address Hz. Ali (RA)
^I think it shows a weakness of your knowledge rather than anything else.