How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

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21

Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

if saqlain mushtaq is in contention kaneria shouldnt be playing.

short of that, i dont see a replacement for him at present. abdul rehman is okay, though not better than kaneria. if anything the case can be made for switching between them in a series.

if malik were in the team and bowling maybe that might have helped.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

Well, prejudice kee bhie kuch haad hotie hay :) Here are records of Pakistani spinners. Danish is already a world class test spin bowler. Choose your pick from test figures below.

From best to worse:

Strike rate (balls per test wicket):
Mushtaq Mohammad: 66.5
Saqlain Mushtaq: 67.6
Danish Kanaria: 67.7 (before current ongoing match, Danish was second after Mushtaq Mohd)
Mushtaq Ahmed: 67.7
Abdul Qadir: 72.5
Iqbal Qasim: 76.1
Arshad Khan: 79.3
Tauseef Ahmed: 83.6

Wicket per match (Number of wickets per test match played): **
**Danish Kanaria: 4.3
Saqlain Mushtaq: 4.25
Mushtaq Ahmed: 3.56
Abdul Qadir: 3.52
Arshad Khan: 3.55
Iqbal Qasim: 3.42
Tauseef Ahmed: 2.74
Mushtaq Mohammad: 1.386 (Mush Mohd was good spin bowler, but use to bat more than bowl)

Highest wicket takers (total overall test wickets):
*Abdul Qadir: 236 (67 tests) *
Danish Kanaria: 219 (51 tests including present test)
Saqlain Mushtaq: 208 (49 tests)
Mushtaq Ahmed: 185 (52 tests)
Iqbal Qasim: 171 (50 tests)
Tauseef Ahmed: 93 (34 tests)
Mushtaq Mohammad: 79 (57 tests)
Arshad Khan: 32 (9 tests)

[Let see that by the time Danish finishes this test and plays another 16 test (to equal abdul Qadir number of test), by how many wickets Danish would pass Abdul Qadir tally].

Averages (Runs per wicket in test):
*Iqbal Qasim: 28.11 *
Mushtaq Mohammad: 29.22
Saqlain Mushtaq: 29.83
Arshad Khan: 30.00
Arshad average is good because he played few matches and got lucky in one inning with 7/92.
Tauseef Ahmed: 31.72
Abdul Qadir: 32.8
Mushtaq Ahmed: 32.97
Danish Kanaria: 33.61

Economy rate (runs given per over in test matches):
Iqbal Qasim: 2.21
Arshad Khan: 2.26
Tauseef Ahmed: 2.27
Mushtaq Mohammad: 2.63
Saqlain Mushtaq: 2.63
Abdul Qadir: 2.71
Mushtaq Ahmed: 2.92
Danish Kanaria: 2.97

So, we can see that average run per wk for Abdul Qadir, Mushtaq Ahmed and Danish are similar. If we think of strike bowler, we can see that Danish and Saqlain has similar figures, and they are best spin strike bowlers Pakistan has produced (actually till now, it seems Danish takes more wickets per match than Saqlain)

Overall (from averages as well as strike rate), I would rate Saqlain Mushtaq (both for test and one-day) as best Pakistan spin bowler followed by Iqbal Qasim (test) followed by Danish (test).

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

nice post sa1eem

clearly the relatively lackluster recent performance is a bad patch, given how stellar his stats have been for an extended period.

he deserves sticking with, if perhaps a support second/replacement spinner in the form of rehman or malik

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

Stats are like mix emotions. The good old days effect cannot change the fact that for last 18 monts or so, Danish has been padestrian for most of the times.

What is the use of a 5 for or 4 for, when you give away tonnes of runs, instead of breaking partnership or building pressure, you (in a way) help opponents stablishing never ending partnerships And after conceding couple of hundred runs you take wickets of big names claiming your class. Otherwise its mostly tailenders that Danish gets out.

I think as Ramiz has put it in an interview published in Jang today, PCB need fire some players and policy makers, no matter how big is the name and start with a new team. Even if that means Malik needs to be dropped from test team, I am all for it. They need to make ppl like Danish, Kamran, Sami, Akhtar, Yasir and Malik to earn their places with hard work. Like Butt saab made his come back after sitting out because of ridiculous performances. I hope there are plenty of talent out there, just need to have an eye to recognise it and tools to polish it.

Professionalism needs to be brought into PCB, from Chairman to director operatioins to team manager and players. All need to learn how to work professionally.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

I agree... I've always suggested using "moving" average statistics rather than just simple averages. This is especially important for players currently in consideration for the national team.

For those who've featured consistently in several series in a row, I'd even suggest using weighted moving averages... i.e. a mediocre performance against SA weighs more heavily than a stellar one against Bangla and the most recent series weighs more heavily than the one from last year.

argh... too much forecasting calculus in my head I suppose.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

since we're speaking statistics while averages dont immediately reflect recent changes, while they dont reflect "form" they do reflect "quality". there is just no way a bad bowler can have that strike rate and wickets after so many matches, unless you believe in a lot of Khudai imdaad.

given that hes played a comparable number of matches as qadir/mushtaq/saqlain, and has maintained those numbers, we can safely say hes a "good" bowler. not good like butt or hafeez or abdul rehman... good like qadir, mushtaq and saqlain. the same cant be said for anyone else in contention to replace him.

what do we do with a good bowler with a bad patch? maybe drop him for a match or two, but not in our tradition of unceremoniously dropping players in a way that they never show up again (ala saqlain, who also had a bad patch, and also was disposed of). pair him up with another spinner on a tour, dont make him the one spinner in the team, but treat him like a guy who has 220 wickets in 51 tests.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria “develop” into a world class bowler

why every1 is so hell bent to pair kaneria with another spinner? who was warne/murli paired with? the fact remains that currently kaneria is struggling big time and like any other player his place in the team should not be an automatic one just bcos there are no other decent spinners on the domestic circuit. if warnie was not taking wkts, he was making sure that he is not bleeding runs at his end. same goes for murli. kaneria could have done the same in the last match and on going one. to say he needs another spinner in the team to be effective is like saying he alone is worthless and thus a position should be wasted for him to become effective. that some logic. :nook:

Was this guy right in slapping this girl?
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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

Although I appreciate the time you have spent in getting these figures but most of the time stats hide more than they reveal

For example stats dont tell that what is Danish's performance against QUALITY batting lineup on non-favoring wickets? thats what makes a difference b/w good bowler and world class bowler. I remembers with Murli, Warne and Even saqi bowling, I used to sit there to watch complete overs coz I always expect them to come up with something new on each delivery, sadly Kaneria is becoming too predictable and being a big mouth certainly does not help !

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

In reponse to ravage's post.

Several things need to be considered. Seven years mean seniority by any standard. 51 tests means a lot. I think its not too long ago when the magician turned padestrian Saqlain was dropped from the team. People in Pakistan worshiped that guy. Once the class and magic evaporated, he was only smashed around the park. Same thing with Mushy and Abdul Qadir. Once a spinner is exposed and predictable and not too innovative to surprise the batsmen, he is treated like Butt, Hafeez, Yuvraj and Sehwag. Once the class or magic is gone, a all equipped full time world class spinner is no different then a part timer. They both will go on and on for 25-35 overs wicketless, seeing scoreboard crossing 500+ like butter. He needs to be out for a whole year and perform in domestic upto his potential, only then he should be given a call back. In the mean time, bring new blood into the team, time to give new spinner, keeper and openers a chance.

India made 620+ runs in 1 1/2 day, thats some remarkable spanking. The way we were conceding boundries on 2nd day was like Bermuda playing to Austrailia. Tongues out and resting hands on waist all the times, Pakistani player looked humiliated as non test nations play with top ranking teams.

Timepass
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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

Do we make wickets similar to Australians and Srilankans? How is Kaneria record in SA, Australia and West Indies?

Sa1eem: Great post as always.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

Brother thanks. Well, what can one say? :) Cricket is a game of numbers and number displays the performance. But there are still people that say that, ‘well A won the match against B, but B played better’ :D

*It seems that some here think that I do not know what cricket is all about. Well, how about 2007 figures for those who are adamant? :D*

Pakistan went to SA and played 3 matches. SA came to Pakistan and played 2 matches. Both DK and M Asif played all five matches. Here are the figures of both bowlers:

Here is performance of M Asif and DK (for matches in 2007 played between Pakistan and SA):

Pakistan in SA (3 matches):
M Asif: 19 wickets for 332 runs (average 17.5 runs per wicket)
D kaneria: 15 wickets for 395 runs (average 26.3 runs per wicket)
(Not a bad performance for a spinner in SA pitch friendly to fast bowlers)

[Pak won 1 match in SA. In that match, both M Asif and DK took 7 wks each. M Asif took 7 for 111 and DK took 7 for 141].

SA in Pakistan (2 matches):
M Asif: 2 wickets for 196 runs (average 98 runs per wk)
DK: 10 wickets for 422 runs (average 42.2 runs per wk)

Overall Performance of D Kaneria and M Asif against 5 test matches between SA and Pakistan played in 2007. DK was the highest wicket taker and obviously got better strike rate per match, though Asif test average is much better.

M Asif: 21 (19 wks in SA) wks for 591 runs in 5 matches @ 28.14 runs per wk. That was 4.2 wickets per match
D Kaneria: 25 wks (15 wks in SA) for 817 runs in 5 matches @32.68 runs per wk. That was 5 wickets per match.

Indian current test: Here is the result of Indian 3 tests (3 is not complete yet). In India, shoaib Akhtar and Danish Kaneria played all 3 test matches (3rd is still running). Total tally for each bowler:

Shaoib Akhtar: 8 wks for 255 runs as yet.
D Kaneria: 11 wks for 522 rums as yet.

Till now, Danish Kaneria (11 wks) is the highest Pakistani wicket taker in India too (though expensive), followed by Shoaib Akhtar (8 wks). Overall, Kumble has taken 13 wks, followed by DK 11 wks, jointly followed by H Singh and Shoaib Akhtar with 8 wickets.

It is not right to compare a spinner with fast bowler, as team needs both type of bowlers on different occasions and none can fill the place for others, still I have compared just to clear the misconception some have here that DK performance was very bad in recent matches.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria “develop” into a world class bowler

ok answer this then. in the recrntly concluded PAK-SA series @ home…
**
SPINNERS
-------------**
paul harris took 12wkts @ 20.66 (avg) 1.96 (econ) and 63.0 (SR)
abdul rehman took 11wkts @ 32 (avg) 2.81 (econ) and 68.1 (SR)
danish kaneria took 10wkts @ 42.20 (avg) 2.78 (econ) and 91.0 (SR)

rest u can check @ http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=3281;type=series

now tell me how come paul harris was more effective on these pitches than kaneria. and despite rehman taking more wkts than kaneria, he was not given a single chance in the on going series.

as for fast bowlers, DW styn was the out standing fast bowler with 9wkts while gul took 6 and asif took only 2. explain me that if pitches were for fast bowlers then how come pakistan bowlers failed to make an impression as strong as styn and if pitches were for spinners then how harris/rehman out performed kaneria?

in the on going series, kumble gave the early break through to india most of the times while kaneria hardly looked threatening even after 30+ over of bowling.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

spinner ho tu Qadir ya Shane warne jaisa ho
warna na hoo - time barbad hota hay - paisay wasool nahi hotay

waisay bhi I am more of a Classic Agressive batsman (aka Viv Richards) VS a R or L arm FAST bone breaker bowler (aka Jeff Thompson) kinda man

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria “develop” into a world class bowler

That’s simple… Pakistan are terrible players of spin. SA are pretty good, and Indians are excellent against spin. Even Warne was spanked around by Tendulkar, Laxman, and co.

The fact that Kumble has only two more wicket than Kaneria is a credit to Kaneria. Pakistan batsmen are clueless against legspin, offspin, and left arm orthodox. Especially against Kumble’s fast spinners.

Salim Malik was the last great batsman Pakistan had against spinners.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

Sa1ee:

You need to be very careful when judging a player by stats alone. Do not compare his number of wickets in given number of matches to those of Qadir. That information would be misleading. Judge him on the following criteria, ALL at the same time:

-- Number of wickets, strike rate, average, economy, overs bowled, and atmosphere created

Danish may be on his way to get more wickets than Qadir in fewer matches, but you can also see from your own stats that he's doing that at a HIGHER ECONOMY RATE and INFERIOR STRIKE RATE. Which means that:

-- he takes MORE NUMBER of balls to take the same number of wickets, and
-- in doing so, *gives away MORE RUNS
*
The result of these two characteristics is that he doesn't create the same amount of pressure that his predecessors used to, or what we expect from a dedicated team spinner. This is also what we 'sense' from seeing his performance live.

I have nothing against Danish, and if you are going to keep defending him by waving high his number of wickets, than that's an argument I can't respond to. If you consider all his stats together, all at once, and analyze the consolidated effect, you may realize that he's not all that!

If all that is too complicated, let me summarize this in two lines. Danish is bowling a lot more overs (or is being made to) to get the same number of wickets that other bowlers do. In addition to that, he's leaking a lot more runs too. READ his economy and strike rate, and that should help you understand where I am coming form .

Plus: In addition to taking wickets, a spinner's job is also to slow down the scoring and create pressure around the batsman which allows other bowlers to take wickets. Danish fails miserably (from your own stats, as well as from what we see live in the matches). Danish has never been able to do that with satisfactory frequency, and in this match alone, if a spinner can't create some pressure when a team is 60/4, then when can he?
Greetings.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria “develop” into a world class bowler

Even the stats confirm that Kaneria has been crap over the past two years. Note his particularly high bowling average in 2006 and 2007. Infact apart from 2002 (bowling ave: 28.69) he has never had a bowling average of less than 30 (In 2001 he played just one test).

Danish Kaneria - Test Cricket - Performance Analysis by Year](Danish Kaneria - Test Cricket - Performance Analysis by Year) (stats include his performance in the ongoing 3rd test v India)

He may have taken 219 wickets in 51 tests but he rarely gets top order batsmen out cheaply, the hall mark of a world-class spinner. Hence I don’t think of him as a match-winner

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

Very useful discussion!

From a point of view made by many, I think it would serve as a more attacking spin option if we pair up Danish Kaneria. Abdur Rehman has looked much decent in his recent outing against South Africa, and he should be given more consideration by the management. Fawad Alam is another decent all-rounder and a handy bat as well. Shoaib Malik, if he can get it together as captain, can also provide us with his ups and downs as a player. The selectors need to play a much bigger part in the entire team selection in a positive way and if anyone is deemed unfit or short on performances, regardless of how big of a name, should be dropped at all costs. Nobody is indispensable. We should be more forward in our thinking and produce a team which has it's strong points less it's weaknesses. Danish has been known to hit both. In any case, it would be preferable to include another spinner in the side. Healthy competition should always be given a top priority.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

I second Dhobi Bhai's sentiments. I definitely don't have anything against Kaneria but just think that he's lost his mojo and should not be an 'automatic sole spin option' for us. He should be paired up, and selected based on his performance and form. Perhaps if he's given a break or used differently (combined with other spinners, or split the games between him and somebody else), he may regain his form. Either way, if he improves or gets better, maybe he can become an automatic selection again. I am not denying that he has potential.

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria “develop” into a world class bowler

Dig sahab, your assertion that Danish is bowling a “lot” more overs than others to get the same wickets simply isnt borne out by the numbers. While thats true of present form, overall the numbers arent THAT different from Qadir. He has a better strike rate than Qadir, and his economy rate is inferior by 0.2. Not significant enough to draw such sweeping inferences.

If you look at the stats GA posts, there is a clear drop in form, which indicates that overall hes not the bowler you paint him to be, even if hes not doing well right now. However GA your idea seems to be that once that happens to you, whether its saqlain or qadir, thats it. You’re finished. How about Kumble then, our present master bowler

around the time kaneria is in his career, kumble had a much more atrocious spell. An average of 43 (!) and a strike rate of 97 (!) in 1997 following a not so stellar 96. Does that mean that hes been exposed and hes predictable and people know how to play him so he should be confined to ignomity and India needed to find a new, unknown spinner? Come on.

Saqlain shouldnt have been confined to the dustbin because he got predictable because every bowler is predictable really, in the sense of having a finite set of balls. Im sure he’d have come back better. Infact having limited variation sometimes doesnt keep you from taking wickets, Kumble is a prime example of that. Every bowler isnt warne.

Finally GA, your claim that he rarely gets top order batsmen out also isnt true. Infact 70% of his wickets are top or middle order batsmen (for comparison, Kumble has 68%)

Kaneria:

Kumble:

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Re: How much longer do we let Kaneria "develop" into a world class bowler

^ he gets top order batsmen out but not cheaply. Kaneria is often wicketless after 25-30 overs and has to bowl something like 40+ overs per innings to get 3+ wickets which help his overall stats but not the cause of the team. Qadir won many matches for Pakistan with his own bowling (his 9/56 v England his best return in an innings) and in a team boasting seamers like Imran Khan and Wasim Akram. Kaneria has n't done that yet (maybe once or twice against weaker opposition only)