Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
these are your own conjectures ....furthermore u still need to bring proof that forcible conversion is allowed in islam .....the example of Godless , infidel imitating, wine bibbers who became kings amongst muslims is not a valid argument.....I dont see christians formulating religious laws based on Cortez's or Charlemalgne's practice of statecraft , dont u think it will be a bit harsh to judge christianity based on actions of fellows like these?
No I don't have to bring any proof of anything 'allowed' in islam because I don't give a rats whether it is 'allowed' or not. I am going by how it happened, how the barbaric and evil muslim invaders destroyed holy temples, how they practiced the evils of conversion to establish islam in India.
If your argument seems to be that islam doesn't allow such evil practices. May be so - but it seems like a century old pattern - whether it be gori and gazni or taleban or osama - they all seem to over a span of 1000 years believe that it is allowed. So who is yo say what is really allowed and what is conveniently disallowed?
Then again, I could give a small bit of credibility to your argument if these evil practitioners are considered as such by all muslims. That is not the case. These sobs are lauded as heroes not only by many individuals but by whole nations who are islamic. Therefore your argument that there is a difference between quran and practice is rejected by these very islamic nations.
Anyway, the question was, how islam was spread, not what islam 'allowed'.
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
^ well if thats ur poor understanding of a faith then i guess its best not to discuss that ...... if u want to discuss ghaznavi and ghuri then leave all the moral and religious aspects as they are NOT religious leaders
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
really? the topic is how islam was spread. it was gori mohamad and gazni mohamad and similar invaders who brought islam into India. invasion is one thing and all kings used to do that, but these guys went around actively and purposefully destroying temples, forcing Hindus to accept islam at sword point....other muslim kings imposed discriminatory taxes on non-muslims...yet others rounded up monks and forced them to eat meat.....to the modern day taleban who puposefully bombed the bamian - remember these very taleban were lauded as the religious elite.
you very conveniently ignore the primary evidence of the violent spread and then want to accept only the 'good religious leaders'?
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
^ taliban are religious elite ? lol
i suggest u learn a little about islamic law and its application before passing such statements and at any rate as i mentioned earlier hindus are polytheists so cannot be given the rights of dhimmis
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
^ taliban are religious elite ? lol
i suggest u learn a little about islamic law and its application before passing such statements and at any rate as i mentioned earlier hindus are polytheists so cannot be given the rights of dhimmis
what I see of islamic law is enough for me to keep it at a very long distance, preferably eliminate it altogether - because modern civilizations require equality for women, abhorrence of violent means and respect for people of all religions. If you are not disgusted by such so called islamic law there is very little difference between you and the jihadi nuts. As to Hindus being polytheists, so what?
Nothing you have said rebuts the fact that islam was spread by the sword in India. end of discussion.
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
It was not spread by sword. Just because you don't agree doesn't really end the discussion. Your statement about survival of Hindu faith (which i respect btw) due to its resiliance is just a feel-good statement and nothing more. The fact is that Hinduism was allowed to thrive even under Muslim rule, which is the reason it has always been present. There wasn't a single time in history when Indian subcontinent was totally Muslim by faith. Hence proving that Islam was NOT spread by the sword. And other religions were present, and have always been present.
Unless you can prove of a period where there was no Hindu population at all, not a single soul left (which is a bit of a stretch), you have to accept the fact that Hinduism was present under Islam. Everything else is assumption to justify what you feel, and not the facts as they are.
I agree islam is the complete religion and there is no other like it, however women do not have complete freedo, and where exactly did this only having freedom if they obey their husband or dad come from
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
It was not spread by sword. Just because you don't agree doesn't really end the discussion. Your statement about survival of Hindu faith (which i respect btw) due to its resiliance is just a feel-good statement and nothing more. The fact is that Hinduism was allowed to thrive even under Muslim rule, which is the reason it has always been present. There wasn't a single time in history when Indian subcontinent was totally Muslim by faith. Hence proving that Islam was NOT spread by the sword. And other religions were present, and have always been present.
Unless you can prove of a period where there was no Hindu population at all, not a single soul left (which is a bit of a stretch), you have to accept the fact that Hinduism was present under Islam. Everything else is assumption to justify what you feel, and not the facts as they are.
Thank you.
You are mixing up 'trying to spread islam by force' and 'succesfully spreading islam by force'.
if there was no Hinduism left in India that would be proof that the forced spreading of islam succeeded completely.
Hinduism surviving only disproves that the forced attempts by muslim kings were not completely succesful. It does not in any way counter the fact that gri and gazni and the series of mogul kings forced islam on the Hindu subjects and partially succeeded by converting many of them.
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
what I see of islamic law is enough for me to keep it at a very long distance, preferably eliminate it altogether - because modern civilizations require equality for women, abhorrence of violent means and respect for people of all religions. If you are not disgusted by such so called islamic law there is very little difference between you and the jihadi nuts. As to Hindus being polytheists, so what?
Nothing you have said rebuts the fact that islam was spread by the sword in India. end of discussion.
you can only respond by insults as u dont know what u are claiming to discredit
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
Teggy - my point is that you (as converts) do not have to feel responsible or justify all the barbaric acts of muslims in the past.
Just like all the Christian converts in Pakistan do not have to feel responsible for all the brutal actions of the British (christian) in India/pakistan prior to independence.
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
In essence, Pakistan is a country of converts. I find it amusing when these converts claim all the Islamic conquests as their own.
It would be as if the Christian converts in Pakistan (or India) claim as theirs - all the achievements of the Christian (or British) Empire!!
most pakistanis are born muslims , yes their ancestors were converts but so were the first generation of arab muslims .....
muslims have a concept of ummah and caliphate which is a little different than that of christians
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
das reich - I actually know about the islamic laws I am referring to. the ones that say those who leave religion, the ones that say follow islam or burn in hell, the one that deal with women etc.
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
Teggy - my point is that you (as converts) do not have to feel responsible or justify all the barbaric acts of muslims in the past.
Just like all the Christian converts in Pakistan do not have to feel responsible for all the brutal actions of the British (christian) in India/pakistan prior to independence.
So sit back & relax.
I'm not a convert. I was born Muslim; most muslim Pakistanis are born muslims. Alhamdulillah (Thanks be to Allah).
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
Das R: Ummah and Caliphate eh?? Than why do you call yourself Pakistani, why did the Bengali muslims become Bangla Desh, why do the muslims in Balochistan want to become independent. Why do you not take the muslim Bihari's rotting in Bangla Desh into Pakistan.
The truth is that Pakistan's history is only 60 years old - but somehow you people have been brainwashed into believing that any or all the glorious (or disgraceful) past of any muslim ruler is somehow your disgrace or glory.
Arey bhai, what happened in Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Sudan, Egypt, Ethopia, Turkey, Kazakistan, Bosnia etc is their history not yours. You can only claim the Mugals, or the Hindu & Buddhist kingdoms as yours.
Honestly tell me - if a christian in your area started acting high and mighty, claiming to be the descendents of the British rulers - some of you might find it amusing others will realise its stupid. Thats how I feel.
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
das reich - I actually know about the islamic laws I am referring to. the ones that say those who leave religion, the ones that say follow islam or burn in hell, the one that deal with women etc.
how is that resorting to insult?
The problem here is twofold.
First of all, you're functioning on the very flawed assumption that "Islamic law" is a static, universally agreed upon, monolith...when in reality its a matter of debate and interpretation. And then on top of that, you're picking the most regressive interpretations and acting as if they're the universally agreed upon truths that comprise "Islamic law." To take your first example, there are plenty of well-respected Islamic scholars who dispute the idea that apostasy is to be punished with death in the this era.
I could just as easily pick and choose the most regressive elements of Hindu legal tradition...say, the Laws of Manu, which bar women from the right to own property, and decree that adultresses should be fed alive to wild dogs...and then say, 'look, this is Hindu law.' But you know as well as I do that wouldn't exactly be fair, now would it?
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
^ so the problem is quite simple then isn't it. Just say those things are not islamic law, that saying 'non-muslims will burn in hell' is wrong and that is all there is to it.
We hear from Hareen01 here that she has no choice but to say that because Quran says so.
Secondly I am very glad to hear you say islamic law is not static and is a matter of debate and interpretation. Given that and the severity of many interpretations shouldn't muslims be against wanting Sharia't to be injected into nation's law?
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
Teggy - my point is that you (as converts) do not have to feel responsible or justify all the barbaric acts of muslims in the past.
We don't. But to even pretend like the Hindus themselves were not part and parcel of the barbarity, even before Muslims arrived, is delusion...and to bring this up as a topic of conversation in this day and age should be construed as nothing short of fanning the flames of sectarianism...
Re: How Islam Spread [split: UN Condemns the Dutch Film]
Das R: Ummah and Caliphate eh?? Than why do you call yourself Pakistani, why did the Bengali muslims become Bangla Desh, why do the muslims in Balochistan want to become independent. Why do you not take the muslim Bihari's rotting in Bangla Desh into Pakistan.
.
you are right muslims have done many deplorable things against other muslims i dont deny that ....but this nationalism is the coffin of religious brotherhood ...i am all for rehablitating the biharis back in pakistan , we absorbed 2 million agfhans and probably half a million bengalis who lie illegally
I am first a muslim , then a pakistani
